* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [1. CALL TO ORDER, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE, ROLL CALL] [00:00:02] GOOD AFTERNOON EVERYONE. IT'S TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 2ND, 4:33 PM THIS IS THE CITY OF SEDONA PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING. ALL RISE FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, PLEASE. I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO APPLY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS. ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE FOR LIBERTY AND JUSTICE. ROLL CALL PLEASE. CHAIR LEVIN. HERE. VICE CHAIR SINI. HERE. COMMISSIONER MARTIN? HERE. COMMISSIONER WHEEL HERE. COMMISSIONER HURST. HERE. COMMISSIONER GSKI. HERE. COMMISSIONER SMITH. PRESENT. THANK YOU. MOVE ON [2. ANNOUNCEMENTS & SUMMARY OF CURRENT EVENTS BY COMMISSIONERS & STAFF] TO AGENDA ITEM NUMBER TWO. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND SUMMARY OF CURRENT EVENTS BY COMMISSIONERS AND STAFF. COMMISSIONERS. NOTHING UP HERE. STAFF. UM, SO I DO WANNA INTRODUCE OUR NEW EMPLOYEE DAY. MARIE FOTI IS WITH DONNA. SHE'S HER NEW DEVELOPMENT SERVICES ASSISTANT. SO SHE'LL BE HELPING OUT WITH, UM, WHATEVER WE NEED HER TO HELP OUT WITH. UM, SO WE'LL SEE HER AROUND. MIGHT BE GETTING SOME EMAILS FROM HER. UM, AND THEN THE OTHER THING IS THAT NEXT WEEK ON WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10TH AT 2:00 PM THE CITY COUNCIL IS HAVING A WORK SESSION ON THE WESTERN GATEWAY MASTER PLAN, WHERE THEY'LL BE REVIEWING EVERYTHING, ALL THE DOCUMENTS UP UNTIL THIS POINT AND PROVIDING SOME DIRECTION. DID YOU SAY WEDNESDAY? WEDNESDAY. SO IT'S A SPECIAL MEETING, RIGHT? YEAH. IN THE AFTERNOON? YES. THIS IS GONNA START AT 2:00 PM OKAY. THANK YOU CARRIE, AND WELCOME TO YOU. CLOSE THAT ITEM. MOVE ON TO AGENDA [3. APPROVAL OF THE FOLLOWING MINUTES] ITEM NUMBER THREE, APPROVAL OF THE FOLLOWING MINUTES. AUGUST 5TH, 2025, REGULAR MEETING. AND AUGUST 5TH, 2025 SITE VISIT. ANY CHANGES UP HERE? NOPE. OKAY. THEY STAND APPROVED. CLOSE THAT ITEM. MOVE ON TO NUMBER FOUR, PUBLIC FORUM. THIS IS THE TIME FOR THE PUBLIC TO COMMENT ON MATTERS NOT LISTED ON THE AGENDA. THE COMMISSION MAY NOT DISCUSS ITEMS THAT ARE NOT SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED ON THE AGENDA PURSUANT TO A RS SECTION. 38 DASH 4 3 1 H. ACTION TAKEN AS A RESULT OF PUBLIC COMMENT WILL BE LIMITED TO DIRECTING STAFF TO STUDY THE MATTER. RESPONDENT RESPONDING TO CRITICISM OR SCHEDULING THE MATTER FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION DECISION AT A LATER DATE. I HAVE ONE CARD, BUT IT'S NOT FOR THIS ITEM. SO I'LL CLOSE THAT AND WE'LL MOVE ON TO [5.a. Public hearing to review, take public testimony, discuss, and possibly take action regarding proposed revisions to the Sedona Land Development Code. The proposed revisions include regulations Implementation of House Bill 2447 (Administrative Review of Development Review and Subdivision applications), Changes to appeal procedures, and Clarification of various code sections] NUMBER FIVE. CONSIDERATION OF THE FOLLOWING ITEMS THROUGH PUBLIC HEARING PROCEDURES, A PUBLIC HEARING TO REVIEW, TAKE PUBLIC TESTIMONY, DISCUSS, AND POSSIBLY TAKE ACTION. REGARDING PROVO PROPOSED REVISIONS TO THE SEDDON LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE. THE PROPOSED REVISIONS INCLUDE REGULATIONS SHOULD BE FOUR REGARDING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF HOUSE BILL. 2, 4, 4 7. ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW OF DEVELOPMENT REVIEW AND SUBDIVISION APPLICATIONS, CHANGES TO APPEAL PROCEDURES, AND CLARIFICATION OF VARIOUS CODE SECTIONS. THIS IS CASE NUMBER PZ, EXCUSE ME, 25 DASH 0 0 0 9 LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE. AND THE APPLICANT IS THE CITY OF SEDONA. ARE YOU, YOU GONNA KICK IT OFF, CARRIE? YES. THANK YOU CHAIR. I DO NOT HAVE A PRESENTATION. UM, BUT JUST TO, UM, OBVIOUSLY YOU'VE ALL GOTTEN YOUR PACKET. THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE AMENDMENTS BEFORE YOU TONIGHT ARE, UM, WE KIND OF START IN THE BACKWARDS ORDER. THEY WERE LISTED IN YOUR STAFF REPORT. THERE'S A NUMBER OF DEFINITION CLARIFICATIONS, THINGS THAT HAVE COME UP AS WE'VE BEEN IMPLEMENTING THE CODE, UM, REGARDING DEFINITIONS AND INTERPRETATIONS OF THE CODE. THERE'S A NUMBER OF, THERE'S A HANDFUL OF CHANGES TO THE APP APPEAL CRITERIA THAT HAVE BEEN, UM, PROPOSED BY OUR CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, UM, TO CLARIFY HOW THAT HAPPENS. THAT'S AS A RESULT OF SOME OF THE APPEALS THAT HAVE HAPPENED OVER THE LAST COUPLE YEARS AND TRYING TO CLARIFY HOW THOSE PROCEDURES TAKE PLACE. AND THEN THE BIG CHANGES THAT ARE BEFORE YOU TONIGHT ARE REGARDING HOUSE BILL 24 47, WHICH IS, UM, ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW OF DEVELOPMENT REVIEW AND SUBDIVISION APPLICATIONS. WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THESE ARE NOT, THESE ONES ARE NOT BEING PROPOSED BY STAFF OTHER [00:05:01] THAN WE ARE DOING THEM BECAUSE THE STATE TOLD US WE HAVE TO. SO, UM, I UNDERSTAND THERE'S A LOT OF, UM, YOU KNOW, OPINIONS ABOUT THAT AND YOU COULD DEFINITELY CAN TALK ABOUT THAT. BUT I DO JUST WANNA EMPHASIZE THAT THESE ARE AS A RESULT OF SOME RECENT STATE LEGISLATURE, SO MM-HMM . UM, I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE, YOU MAY NOT BE THRILLED WITH THEM AND, UM, BUT WE CAN DEFINITELY ANSWER QUESTIONS AND, UM, CITY ATTORNEY AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR ARE ALSO AVAILABLE FOR QUESTIONS AS WELL. UM, BUT WITH THAT, I WOULD JUST BE OPEN TO ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE REGARDING THE CHANGES IN YOUR PACKET. THANK YOU, CARRIE. UM, WITH THE COMMISSION'S APPROVAL, WHY DON'T WE, UM, ADDRESS THOSE THREE AREAS AS CARRIE HAS, UM, PRESENTED THEM TO US, AND THEN GET TO THE ONE THAT'S GONNA TAKE US THE LONGEST TO DISCUSS. SO IS THERE ANY INTEREST IN CHANGING ANY OF THE, UH, AMENDMENTS OR THE LANGUAGE THAT HAD HAVE TO DO WITH CODE CHANGES OTHER THAN THE HOUSE BILL? YEAH. UM, I HAVE ONE REGARDING THE, UM, TEMPORARY USES SPECIAL EVENTS AS THAT. IS THIS THE RIGHT SECTION FOR THAT AS IT PERTAINS TO SHORT TERM RENTALS? YEAH, SO I RECOGNIZE LIKE LOOKING AT, UM, SOME DEFINITIONS AND LOOKING AT SPECIAL EVENTS AND, AND TRYING TO CLARIFY. I GUESS I HAVE SOME CONCERNS ABOUT ADDING WEDDING RECEPTIONS. 'CAUSE A LOT OF TIMES THOSE ARE LIKE AT BUSINESSES OR AT PEOPLE'S HOMES, LIKE, LIKE PARENTS MM-HMM . SO THE WAY THE CODE IS, AND THE WAY IT WORKS FOR WEDDINGS AS WELL, IS THAT IF YOU ARE REGISTERED AS A SHORT-TERM RENTAL, YOU ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR THOSE TWO PS. OKAY. IF YOUR HOUSE IS NOT A SHORT-TERM RENTAL, IT'S A HUNDRED DOLLARS PERMIT THAT WILL WORK WITH YOU. IT'S FAIRLY EASY TO GET. OKAY. SO WHAT ABOUT A BUSINESS OWNER? LIKE IF I OWNED A RESTAURANT AND I WAS HAVING A BUSINESS THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED PART OF THE BUSINESS. IT WOULDN'T BE CONSIDERED A TEMPORARY USE BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE A BUSINESS THAT OFFERS FOOD, THAT'S YOUR BUSINESS. AND SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO GET A TEMPORARY USE PERMIT TO DO A WEDDING RECEPTION AT LIKE A RESTAURANT. THIS. OKAY. BUT YOU NEED A TEMPORARY USE PERMIT TO HOLD A WEDDING RECEPTION FOR 40 PEOPLE IN YOUR FRONT YARD, IN YOUR YARD. YES. MM-HMM . OKAY. AND, AND CHAIR COMMISSION. I'LL, I'LL TELL YOU THE, THE REASONS FOR THAT FROM THE SHORT TERM RENTAL SPECIALIST IS PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WELL, I GOT MARRIED WHEN I GOT THE CERTIFICATE FROM THE JUDGE A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND THIS IS JUST THE RECEPTION AND THEY'VE GOT A HUNDRED PEOPLE AND THE CATERERS AND THEY'RE GONNA MARCH DOWN THE AISLE STILL. BUT THIS IS JUST THE RECEPTION. IT'S NOT . RIGHT. BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAVE OUR CERTIFICATE MM-HMM . UM, AND SO WE WERE JUST TRYING TO CLOSE THAT LOOPHOLE A LITTLE BIT. MM-HMM . JUST SO IN CASE THERE'S FUTURE DISAGREEMENT ABOUT WHERE IT'S ALLOWED, COULD WE MAKE THAT MORE CLARIFICATION FOR WEDDING WEDDING RECEPTIONS IN RESIDENTIAL ZONING? BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THAT RIGHT NOW YOU'RE SAYING IT'S LOOPED UNDER USE, BUT I'M, I'M PRETTY FAMILIAR WITH THE RESTAURANT USE AND I'M PRETTY FAMILIAR THAT IT DOESN'T SAY WEDDING RECEPTIONS UNDER IT. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? DIDN'T SHE JUST SAY YOU DON'T NEED IT IF IT'S A RESTAURANT THOUGH, COR CORRECT. YEAH, IT'S NOT, AND DOESN'T PERTAIN WITH, WITH CARRIE IN CHARGE. I, I BELIEVE THAT, BUT THE RESTAURANT USE DEFINITION DOESN'T SAY WEDDING RECEPTIONS. SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS, CAN WE CLARIFY EITHER IN USES UNDER BUSINESSES OR SAY THAT THIS WEDDING RECEPTION IS A RESIDENTIAL THING SOMEHOW? LIKE, UM, WHAT PAGE IS THIS? THIS, UH, AMENDMENT ON? 19. 19. THANK YOU. IT'S TWO FROM THE BOTTOM, KATHY, SO THANK YOU. OR ONE FROM THE BOTTOM. SORRY. YOU KNOW, IT'S, I, I BELIEVE YOU. I DON'T THINK ANYONE'S GOING AFTER RESTAURANTS FOR WEDDING RECEPTIONS, BUT THIS IS OUR CODE. AND WHEN CARRIE'S NOT MAKING THAT CHOICE OR SOMEONE ELSE IS MAKING THAT CHOICE, IT'D BE NICE TO BUSINESSES TO KNOW, I DO, I DO WEDDING RECEPTIONS. LIKE I THINK I GET LARGE PARTY RESERVATIONS IS WHAT THEY END UP BEING. UM, BUT IT'S TRUE THAT YOU DON'T NEED A TEMPORARY USE PERMIT. IT, THAT IS WHAT'S VERBALLY BEING TOLD US. BUT I WOULD SAY IF YOU LOOK AT CODE CRITICALLY, THERE'S NO CLARIFICATION. SO, SO EITHER ADDING RESIDENTIAL HERE OR ADDING WEDDING RECEPTIONS AS A USE UNDER BASICALLY ALL COMMERCIAL MM-HMM . EITHER ONE, WOULD MAKE IT CLEAR FOR THE FUTURE WHEN CARRIE, IF, IF AND WHEN CARRIE IS NOT MAKING THAT CHOICE. MM-HMM . THANKS FOR BRINGING UP JOE. ALSO, I WAS GONNA SUGGEST, UH, AFTER WEDDINGS, WEDDINGS, RECEPTIONS WE SAY AND OR OTHER WEDDING ASSOCIATED EVENTS. MM-HMM . MEANING BACHELORETTE PARTIES, BACHELOR PARTIES. MM-HMM . MM-HMM . UM, I'VE HAD A FEW PEOPLE REQUEST, UM, 'CAUSE I DO HAVE AN AIRBNB, BUT I'VE HAD PEOPLE REQUEST PHOTO SHOOTS AND WANTING TO BRING ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE ON PROPERTY. UM, THAT'S A HARD NO. I'D ALSO LIKE TO ADD CLASSES AND WORKSHOPS. I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY SEE THEM ON INSTAGRAM THAT ARE HOSTING THESE CLASSES AND WORKSHOPS IN SHORT TERM RENTALS IN SEDONA. AGAIN, WE COULD PUT A RESIDENTIAL, LIKE YOU COULD [00:10:01] HAVE A RESIDENTIAL CATEGORY FOR SPECIAL, BUT DOESN'T THAT GET INTO A DIFFERENT CATEGORY? UM, IF THEY HAVE HOME OCCUPATION AND THAT HAPPENS TO BE CLASSES, I KNOW PEOPLE THAT LITERALLY COME TO SEDONA AND RENT A SHORT TERM RENTAL AND THEN HAVE CLASSES AND WORKSHOPS. AND I, I KNOW THAT RETREATS IS ON HERE. MM-HMM. AND OTHER ORGANIZED, BUT IT SAYS COMMUNITY EVENTS. MM-HMM . AND SO I THINK THAT'S OPEN TO INTERPRETATION TOO. AND I'D LIKE TO LIKE MAKE IT REALLY TIGHT MM-HMM . IF WE CAN. AND I THINK THAT'S SUPER TRUE BECAUSE LIKE MY COACH DOES THAT, SHE RUNS AN AIRBNB AND THEN HAS LIKE HOLISTIC MEDITATION AND YOGA ON SITE AND THEN DOES HIKING. YEAH. MM-HMM . AND IT'S AN AIRBNB. IT'S NOT THEIR PRESENT. 'CAUSE MOST OF THOSE FOLKS AT A LOT OF THOSE FOLKS DON'T HAVE BIG ENOUGH HOMES TO HOST AT. RIGHT. SO YOU'RE CORRECT. THAT'S PRETTY COMMON ACTUALLY. WHICH IMPACTS THE TRASH LOAD, WHICH IMPACTS, YOU KNOW, CARS, PARKING STREETS, ALL THE NOISE, ALL OF THE THINGS. SO NEIGHBORHOOD QUALITY OF LIFE. EXACTLY. SO THAT'S JUST MY SUGGESTION. YEAH. SO CHAIR'S, COMMISSIONERS, THE, THE KEY JUST TO REMEMBER THERE, THERE'S, THIS DOES HAVE THE LARGEST IMPACT ON RESIDENTIAL ZONED HOUSES. SO YOUR OWN HOUSES. SO IF THAT DEFINITION GOT INCLUDED, THEN IT'D ALSO, YOU WOULD ALSO REQUIRE A, A PERMIT TO DO THOSE THINGS AT YOUR OWN HOUSE, RIGHT? MM-HMM . TOTALLY. MM-HMM . A HUNDRED PERCENT. IS THERE CONSENSUS UP HERE? I DON'T. DID WE, MY POINT ABOUT LIKE MAKING COMMERCIAL, IS THAT CLEAR? CLEAR? DO WE HAVE CONSENSUS ON THAT PART? 'CAUSE I AGREE WITH SARAH'S EDITION MM-HMM . MM-HMM . I, FOR ME, THIS IS A, A RESIDENTIAL CODE ENFORCEMENT KIND OF BLURB WE'RE TRYING TO TOUCH, RIGHT? I DON'T, I MEAN, EVERYONE CAN CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THAT THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY COMMERCIAL PROBLEM. AND SO IF WE'RE TRYING TO CORRECT FOR RESIDENTIAL, MAYBE WE HONE IN ON THAT BEING THE CASE. MM-HMM . YEAH. SO CHAIR COMMISSION, I PUSHED BACK ON THAT A LITTLE BIT. I THINK SOME OF THOSE THINGS LIKE OUTDOOR CONCERTS AND CIRCUSES AND THE MUSIC DO APPLY TO COMMERCIAL. SO I THINK IT WOULD BE BEST TO GO THE OTHER WAY THAT YOU SUGGESTED, UH, COMMISSIONER AND, AND MAYBE IN THE DEFINITION, UH, UH, IN THE COMMERCIAL CODE, WE COULD PUT IN SOMETHING ABOUT WEDDINGS. YEAH. YEAH. OR IN THE OTHER, OR IN RESTAURANT. OTHER RELATED WEDDING ACTIVITIES ARE ALLOWED IN COMMERCIAL WOULD BE THE WAY TO WHATEVER DIRECTION, WHATEVER DIRECTION. YEAH. I, I JUST, I TOTALLY BELIEVE CARRIE, THAT NO ONE'S GONNA DO THAT TODAY. RIGHT. BUT I THINK WE SHOULD BE CLEAR TOMORROW. YEAH. OR WHENEVER. SO CLARIFICATION, WHAT IF SOMEBODY LIVES ON THE PROPERTY AND ALSO HAS AN AIRBNB ON THE PROPERTY? WHAT DO THEY DO IF THEY WANNA HAVE LIKE AN OUTDOOR FESTIVAL OR CONCERT OR GATHERING AT THEIR HOUSE? MAY HAVE TO GET A TUB. YEAH. YEAH. IT'S GONNA BE, IT'S GONNA BE PROHIBITED BECAUSE THE PROPERTIES USED AS A SHORT-TERM RENTAL IN ANY FORM. EVEN IF IT'S JUST GOOD TO KNOW. YEAH. THANK YOU. SO NO SPECIAL EVENTS PER STATE LAW. SPECIAL EVENTS ARE NOT ALLOWED ON, UH, AIRBNBS. OKAY. SO IT DOESN'T DISTINGUISH BETWEEN WHOLE HOUSE RENTAL OR, OR ONE ROOM. OKAY. OR JUST THE GUEST HOUSE. ALL RIGHT. SO I, I NEED A CLARIFICATION. SO I LIVE OVER BY CHAPEL. THERE'S A LARGE EIGHT PLEX THAT HAS MANY PARTIES. IT'S A SHORT TERM RENTAL. DO THEY, WHEN I HEAR THE PARTIES AND THAT KINDA STUFF, DO THEY NEED A SHORT, A SPECIAL USE PERMIT TO DO THAT? TEMPORARY? SO IT'D BE A TEMPORARY USE PERMIT. RIGHT? BUT IF THEY NOT FOR A GENERAL PARTY, RIGHT. IF THERE IS A NOISE COMPLAINT, YOU WOULD CALL THE POLICE. I UNDERSTAND THAT FOR A NOISE COMPLAINT, IF THEY ARE HAVING A WEDDING YEAH. UM, SOMETHING THAT GOES BEYOND THE OCCUPANCY OF THE HOUSE, THEN UM, WE HAVE A SHORT, WE NOW HAVE A SHORT TERM RENTAL ENFORCEMENT OFFICER THAT IS SPECIALIZING IN SHORT-TERM RENTAL ENFORCEMENT. SO YOU COULD CALL HIM AND REPORT WHAT YOU'VE SEEN AND HE WOULD LOOK INTO IT. BUT MY QUESTION IS, SO EVERY TIME THEY HAVE A PARTY THAT HAS TO DO WITH A WEDDING, THEY NEED TO GET A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. TEMPORARY PERMIT? WELL, A TEMPORARY USE PERMIT. BUT IF IT IS A SHORT TERM RENTAL, THEY CANNOT, THEY ARE NOT ELIGIBLE TO GET THAT PERMIT. SO A SHORT-TERM RENTAL IS MEANT TO BE USED FOR BY SOMEONE RENTING THE HOUSE FOR THEIR VACATION, NOT FOR THEIR SPECIAL EVENT. THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE WEDDINGS THERE. SO HOW ARE THEY HAVING WEDDINGS? THEY ARE DOING IT ILLEGALLY, , AND YOU CAN CALL OUR SHORT-TERM RENTAL UNDERSTAND ENFORCEMENT OFFICER RESPONSE. I SEE. AND WITH ANY EVIDENCE YOU HAVE THAT A WEDDING HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN A SHORT-TERM RENTAL AND HE WILL LOOK INTO IT. AND, AND IF, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE VERIFIED VIOLATIONS THAT IF WE, IF A SHORT-TERM RENTAL IS FOUND TO HAVE VIOLATED THIS RULE AND HAVING A SPECIAL EVENT, THEN THEIR PERMIT CAN BE REVOKED AFTER JUST ONE VIOLATION FOR A YEAR. ROB? WELL, ALL THE NEIGHBORS IN CHAPEL DON'T KNOW THAT. SO I WILL INFORM MY NEIGHBORS. OKAY, GREAT. AND THEY'LL BE SHUTTING DOWN SOON. . BUT IT'S, IT'S ALSO THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A, YOU KNOW, A PARTY, EVERYONE CAN HAVE A PARTY VERSUS A SPECIAL [00:15:01] EVENT. AND IT, WE HEAR LOUD AND CLEAR. I LIKE TO TELL THE GROOM A STORY, BUT IT'S NOT FUNNY WHEN IT HAPPENS. I'LL HAVE IT ON TAPE . OKAY. UM, THERE WERE PROPOSED REVISIONS ON THE APPEAL PROCESS. ARE THERE ANY COMMENTS UP HERE? SO ON THAT, ARE YOU LOOKING FOR REVISIONS TO THE CURRENT PROPOSAL? ARE YOU SAYING THAT WE SHOULD CONSIDER THAT FOR POTENTIALLY THE NEXT ROUND OF REVISIONS? I, I'M SAYING BECAUSE WE'RE REVISING NOW, WE SHOULD YEAH. REVISE. IT'S EFFICIENT. DON'T, YOU DON'T NEED TO GO AND SPIN YOUR WHEELS FOR US TO SPIN OUR WHEELS AGAIN. UM, SO WE'RE ASKING TO REVISE THE COMMERCIAL CODE, RIGHT? THAT'S NOT ON YOUR, ARE WE ALLOWED TO DO THAT TODAY? CAN WE DO THAT KIRK, TODAY? 'CAUSE IT'S NOT ON OUR AGENDA. YOU CAN PUT THE RECOMMENDATION FORWARD, UM, AND STAFF, WE CAN EVALUATE IT AND SEE IF IT'S GONNA HAVE ANY, UH, UNWANTED RESULTS. OFTEN THESE THINGS ARE ALSO INTERTWINED, BUT WE HAD TO LOOK THROUGH IT AND TRY TO PREDICT OTHER THINGS, UM, THAT MIGHT HAPPEN BECAUSE OF THAT. BUT YEAH, WE CAN GO FORWARD TO COUNSEL, UM, YOUR RECOMMENDATION ANYWAYS, AND THEN WE CAN HAVE OUR STAFF RECOMMENDATION ALSO AT THAT POINT. OKAY. SO YOU WOULD BE WANTING TO ADD, ADD A RECOMMENDATION THAT WE CAN SIT OR CHANGES TO WOULD BE COMMERCIAL DEFINITIONS TO CLARIFY THAT COMMERCIAL U USES USES NOT SPECIAL USE, JUST WEDDINGS. YEAH. I MEAN WE'RE SPECIFICALLY, I'M SPECIFICALLY YOU'RE SAYING WEDDING RECEPTIONS? THAT'S SPECIFICALLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. SO, OKAY. WEDDING UBSTANCE ARE BEING ALLOWED USE IN A COMMERCIAL ZONE. . UM, YEAH, I MEAN THAT, THAT'S, SO YOU WANT TO CLARIFY THAT HE'S SAYING THAT'S THE BEST DIRECTION TO GO ABOUT IT RATHER THAN CLARIFYING RESIDENTIAL THIS WAY IS TO CLARIFY COMMERCIAL. OH, OKAY. THAT WAY. SO, AND WHETHER YOU WANNA DO THAT UNDER COMMERCIAL OR UNDER SPECIFIC COMMERCIAL USE, LIKE, YOU KNOW, TEACH THEIR OWN HOWEVER YOU WANT TO DO THAT. BUT I JUST DON'T WANT THIS TO BE LOOKED AT DIFFERENTLY IN THE FUTURE. OKAY? MM-HMM . UM, I HAVE ONE UNDER THE, EACH DWELLING MAY CONTAIN A MAXIMUM ONE KITCHEN ABOVE, RIGHT? YEP. MM-HMM . I THINK IT'S A CURT QUESTION. AND THE QUESTION IS, I'M WONDERING IF THIS LIMITS, UH, FAMILIES WHO HAVE CERTAIN RELIGIONS THAT REQUIRE TWO KITCHENS SPECIFICALLY. LIKE THE ONE I KNOW ABOUT IS, OR ORTHODOX JEWS REQUIRE A KOSHER KITCHEN. MM-HMM . AND THIS FEELS A, I DON'T KNOW WHY I'VE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THIS IN OUR 8,000 CONVERSATIONS ABOUT KITCHENS BECAUSE WE'VE HAD THEM, BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN I'M LIKE, OKAY, THERE'S, WE HAVE A LOT OF ORTHODOX VISITORS, I SEE THEM. AND SO IF WE'RE ONLY ALLOWED ONE KITCHEN, IS THAT KIND OF, IS THAT LEGAL TO NOT ALLOW A RELIGIOUS SECOND KITCHEN? DO YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? IT'S JUST SOMETHING I'D NEVER THOUGHT OF. AND THEN I THOUGHT OF YESTERDAY, DO THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TWO SEPARATE KITCHENS? SOMETIMES THEY DO THE DISHWASHERS TO OVENS FOR A KOSHER KITCHEN. YEAH, IT'S FULL. BUT YOU CAN PREPARE A KOSHER KITCHEN FROM YOUR EXISTING KITCHEN. SURE, SURE. AND I'M NOT, I'M NOT GONNA ACT LIKE I'M A RELIGIOUS SCHOLAR. I'M JUST WONDERING IF THERE'S SOME, I'M JUST THINKING OF A FAMILY LEGAL CONCERN FAMILY THAT I KNOW. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. YEAH. AND THEY PRACTICE KOSHER MM-HMM . SO IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT I WONDERED IF WAS A LEGAL CONCERN AS WE ADD THIS TO CODE. SO IT, IT'S A CLARIFICATION THAT WE HAVE ALREADY BASICALLY BEEN ENFORCING. UM, AND SO IT HAS NOT EVER COME UP BEFORE. UM, I'M UNAWARE OF THAT BEING AN ISSUE IF IT DID COME DOWN TO IT. THEN THERE'S THE, OUR LUPA, THE RELIGIOUS LAND USE, UH, PER, I FORGET THE WHOLE TITLE OF THAT. IT'S FEDERAL LAW, BUT RELIGIOUS LAND USE AND INSTITUTIONALIZED PERSONS ACT. THERE YOU GO. LOOK AT YOU. UM, THAT COULD COME INTO PLAY AND COULD TRUMP THE CITY, CITY CODE IF SOMEONE WANTED TO RAISE THOSE ISSUES. AND IF IT WASN'T AN ESSENTIAL, UM, PART OF THEIR RELIGIOUS MM-HMM . WORSHIP. SO THAT COULD COME INTO PLAY. YES. UM, I DON'T HAVE THAT CONCERN RIGHT NOW AT THIS CHANGE. OKAY. MM-HMM . AND THEN MY ONLY OTHER COMMENT ABOUT THAT IS A REMINDER THAT THIS DISCOURAGES MULTI-GENERATIONAL LIVING. AND THAT MAKES ME REALLY SAD. BUT I KNOW THAT IS THIS CURRENT R CODE, IF COUNSEL WOULD LIKE TO UNDER ONE ROOF IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I MEAN, ALL THE KITCHEN RULES THAT EXIST IN RESIDENTIAL DISCOURAGE, MULTI-GENERATIONAL LIVING, WHETHER THAT'S A DA ERA, UM, CAS OR LIKE WHATEVER IT ALL, IT ALL DISCOURAGED. WELL, A SEPARATE DWELLING AN A DU OR A CASITA COULD HAVE A KITCHEN. IT'S NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A SECOND STOVE, BUT IT CAN'T HAVE A STOVE. IT CAN NOW DID THEY PASS THAT FINALLY? YES. IT DIDN'T GET TABLED THROUGHOUT. YAY. THAT'S VERY EXCITING. MULTI-GENERATIONAL LIVING IN TWO DWELLINGS, WHICH, SO YES. IF YOU GOT APPROVED AS A HOUSE AND [00:20:01] AN A DU THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE WITH A KITCHEN, EACH OF US IS A GREAT STEP. YEAH. BUT IT'S NO, THERE'S NO LIKE, YOU KNOW, DOWNSTAIRS GRANDMA APARTMENT. RIGHT. AND I THINK THAT'S IN OUR COMMUNITY ESPECIALLY MM-HMM. WITH THE AGING MM-HMM. AS PEOPLE WANT TO AGE IN PLACE, I THINK IS MM-HMM. DISAPPOINTING THAT WE CONTINUE TO MAKE THE CHOICE. 'CAUSE I KNOW IF I TRAVEL AND STAY IN AN AIRBNB, I COULDN'T CARE LESS IF THERE WAS A FULL KITCHEN. BUT I KNOW IF I LIVE SOMEWHERE, KIND OF REALLY WANT MM-HMM . A KITCHEN MM-HMM . SO FOR BOTH A HOUSING AND A MULTI-GENERATIONAL PERSPECTIVE, I'M STILL SAD ABOUT THIS CODE. AND IF COUNCIL WANTS TO TALK ABOUT IT, I WOULDN'T BE SAD ABOUT THAT. WHAT'S, WHAT'S THE REASON FOR THIS? UM, THERE HAS BEEN A CONCERN OVER THE YEARS OF BUILDING HOUSES WITH THAT ARE ALL THAT HAVE LOCK OFF SUITES, LOCK OFFS THAT TURN INTO TRIPLEXES AND QUADPLEXES AND PUTTING MORE THAN ONE DWELLING UNIT ON A AND BUILT SINGLE FAMILY. AND WHAT DEFINES A KITCHEN NEW BUILT? UM, IT IS A SINK, A REFRIGERATOR AND A STOVE. SO IF YOU HAVE A SINK AND A REFRIGERATOR, THAT IS A CONSIDERED A KITCHENETTE AND YOU CAN HAVE THAT DOES A HOT PAD COUNT AS A STOVE, YOU CANNOT HAVE A BUILT-IN STOVE AND YOU CANNOT HAVE TWO 20 VOLT ELECTRIC OR A GAS LINE. SO MY HOME IN DES MOINES, IOWA, SOMETHING THAT PLUGS INTO YOUR ONE 10 OUTLET. YOUR OKAY. YEAH. SO MY HOME IN DES MOINES, WE HAD A LARGE SPACE DOWNSTAIRS AND I HAD TWO KITCHENS. YEAH. MM-HMM . THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. HMM. BUT THAT WAS FOR THE GUYS , RIGHT? THE FOOTBALL GAMES. NO. SO IT'S, IT'S ESSENTIALLY A, A FULL STOVE, THE UPGRADED ELECTRIC LINE OR THE GAS LINE. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, YOU CAN HAVE A WET BAR KITCHEN AT, THERE'S NO LIMITATIONS ON THAT 10,000 SQUARE FOOT HOUSE. YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE IT. HAVE TWO KITCHENS. OKAY. NOT HERE AT ONE. SO I WOULDN'T SUPPORT THAT. IT'S ALREADY DONE. IT'S BEEN LIKE THIS FOR YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. I'M ASKING COUNSEL TO, TO CON RECONSIDER. OH, SO WE CAN'T SAY NO. CORRECT. THIS IS A CLARIFICATION THAT IS THE CODE. CAN I ASK A SILLY QUESTION? , UHHUH , YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD POWER? ARE WE STILL TALKING THE, THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE QUESTIONS? WE ARE, YES. I, I DO, I JUST HAVE ONE QUICK QUESTION THAT'S JUST BROUGHT UP A QUESTION IF I MAY, KATHY MM-HMM . UM, IF I COME TO YOU AND I HAVE A TWO STORY HOME AND MY MOM'S MOVING IN AND I WANNA PUT A SECOND KITCHEN IN, IS THERE ANY WAY TO GET AN EXCEPTION? OR IF I'M KOSHER AND I HAVE TO DO TWO KITCHENS BECAUSE MY SON IS NOT JEWISH, BUT THE REST OF MY FAMILY IS, AND SO I HAD TO HAVE TWO KITCHENS. DO I LIKE GET, CAN I GET AN EXCEPTION OR IS IT JUST ABSOLUTELY NO OR I CAN PULL THE RELIGIOUS CARD, BUT WHAT DO I LIKE THE MOTHER-IN-LAW? WHAT DO I DO? DO I SIT OUTSIDE AND GO MY MOTHER-IN-LAW'S HOMELESS NOW BECAUSE I CAN'T HAVE A KITCHEN AND I HAVE A SIGN AT THE FRONT DOOR. I MEAN, HOW DOES THAT WORK? SO IF YOU GOT IT APPROVED AS AN ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT, YOU CAN HAVE A SECOND KITCHEN. ONLY IF I HAD AN A DU, BUT NOT IF I HAD PUT SOMEBODY IN MY, PUT HER IN MY BASEMENT WITH THE DOOR LOCKED. NO. IN YOUR PRIMARY RIGHT. DON'T YOU GUYS HAVE SOME LANGUAGE THAT SAYS, OR PER THE APPROVAL OF THE CITY ENGINEER DIRECTOR, IT'S THE DIRECT IT'S ? NO, IN THE CURRENT CODE. LIKE IF YOU WANTED TO LIKE KIND OF DIVERT FROM AT THE DISCRETION OF YEAH. IF YOU WANTED TO LIKE GO OFF BOOK. SO THERE'S SOME THINGS THAT DO HAVE DIRECTOR DISCRETION, BUT THAT IS, I MEAN AS WE GET INTO THE HB 24 47, WE HAVE TO HAVE OBJECTIVE CRITERIA. IT CAN'T BE SUBJECT TO THE WHIMS OF A SPECIFIC PERSON. SO THE STUFF IN OUR CODE THAT ALLOWS DIRECTOR DISCRETION, IT'S FOR, YOU KNOW, DESIGN CRITERIA FOR WALLS THAT DON'T FACE A PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY OR NOT VISIBLE FROM A STREET. SO THERE'S GENERALLY CRITERIA OF WHAT HAS TO BE TRUE FOR THE DIRECTOR TO CONSIDER AN EXCEPTION. GOT IT. UNFORTUNATE. UM, MY ONLY OTHER COMMENT WAS THE SECOND ONE FOR THE MASSING UNDER ARTICLE FIVE. IT MIGHT BE REALLY HELPFUL TO HAVE A LITTLE DIAGRAM. MASSING KIND OF PUZZLES PEOPLE A LOT, UM MM-HMM . SO I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL. I TOLD SARAH THIS EARLIER, BUT I MADE MY HUSBAND EXPLAIN IT TO ME BECAUSE HE'S AN ENGINEER AND HE USED MY CHILD'S BLOCKS AND IT WAS VERY HELPFUL. IT WAS VERY HELPFUL. SO YEAH, WE CAN, I THINK WE ALREADY HAVE A, A DIAGRAM IN THERE THAT WE MIGHT BE, BE ABLE TO, I THINK THERE IS A DIAGRAM IN THERE ON MASS. THERE IS, BUT THE SPECIFIC CLARIFICATION, UM, IT'S NOT REPRESENTED WELL. THE DIAGRAMS. WE COULD DEFINITELY LOOK AT CHANGES TO THAT AS WELL. OKAY. GO AHEAD. MM-HMM . UM, LET'S SEE, I THINK IT WAS, UM, TWO 19 B THE OPEN SPACE. UM, AND THERE WAS A, IT SEEMS KIND OF ANTICIPATORY IF IT'S, IF [00:25:01] THE FOREST SERVICE, FOREST SERVICE LAND WITHIN THE CITY IS SOLD, IT HAD BEEN OPEN SPACE, BUT IT WOULD BE, NO, EXCUSE ME, IT WAS, SO RIGHT NOW THE, THE LAND THAT'S OPEN SPACE, I MEAN MAYBE KURT CAN WEIGH IN ON THAT TOO. BUT THE, ABOUT HALF OF OUR CITY IS NATIONAL FOREST AND IT'S ZONED NF. UM, AND THE ALLOWED USES ARE BY CODE. WHATEVER THE FOREST SERVICE WANTS TO DO WITH THEIR LAND IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT SAYS IS, I THINK IT'S BASED ON THE FOREST SERVICES PLAN. AND SO WHEN THERE WAS DISCUSSIONS ABOUT POSSIBLY SELLING OFF SOME OF THE FEDERAL LANDS, THERE WAS A CONCERN OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THESE LANDS THAT WERE ZONED NATIONAL FOREST WERE NO LONGER NATIONAL FOREST. SO THIS WAS THE CLARIFICATION, BUT IT HASN'T HAPPENED. AND SO DO WE, DO WE NORMALLY, UM, MAKE THINGS, MAKE CHANGES IN ANTICIPATION? IS THERE SOMETHING IN THE PIPELINE? I DON'T KNOW ABOUT . NO, THERE'S NOTHING IN THE PIPELINE YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT. UH, BUT YES, WE, WE FREQUENTLY UPDATE CODES TO ANTICIPATE, UH, FUTURE CHANGES. WE TRY TO GET AHEAD OF THAT. 'CAUSE IF YOU, OTHERWISE, THE PEOPLE END UP WITH NONCONFORMITIES AND THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO IT. SO WE HAVE TO TRY TO STAY AHEAD OF THAT. MM-HMM . YEAH. NOTHING UP THEIR SLEEVE. , THAT'S WHAT THEY ALL SAY, BUT YEAH. OKAY. I HAD A QUESTION ON THAT. 5.7 F UM, THE NEW SECTION ON BUILDING MASSING MM-HMM . I READ THAT SECTION SEVERAL TIMES AND AS AN ARCHITECT, I WAS CLUELESS WHAT SEVEN IS TRYING TO SAY WHERE THE BLOCKS. SO I, I DON'T KNOW IF, IF I JUST DON'T HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING, BUT MM-HMM . IT IS STANDARDS AS MASSES FOR THE AREA ON EITHER SIDE OF THE SPACE VOID. SO DO YOU MEAN THE MASSES ON EITHER SIDE OF THE SPACE VOID OR, SO WHAT WE'VE RUN INTO AND WHAT IS THAT? WHEN PEOPLE HAVE TWO MASSES, IT'S HOW FAR APART DO THEY HAVE TO BE IN ORDER? LIKE IF THEY'RE AN INCH APART, DO THEY EACH COUNT AS A SEPARATE MASS? IT'S LIKE, WELL THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT GOES WITH THE INTENT OF THE CODE. SO WE HAVE HAD AN INTERPRETATION OF THE CODE FOR MANY YEARS NOW. THAT'S IN ORDER FOR BOTH OF THOSE SECTIONS, YOU KNOW, DIAGRAM TO, TO COUNT THE SPACE IN BETWEEN THEM NEEDS TO MEET THOSE SAME DIMENSIONAL STANDARDS AS A MASS WOULD NEED TO MAKE. AND SO THAT HAS BEEN OUR INTERPRETATION OF THE CODE. IT'S 30 FEET, IT'S SIX FEET IN NO, BOTH DIRECTIONS AND A HUNDRED SQUARE FEET TOTAL. SO, SO YOU'RE DEFINING WHAT THE VOID HAS TO BE. YEAH. SO THE CODE ALREADY DEFINES WHAT A MASS IS, AND WE'RE SAYING THAT THE VOID BETWEEN THOSE, IF YOU WANNA COUNT THINGS ON EITHER SIDE, NEEDS TO MEET THE SAME DIMENSIONAL STANDARDS. SO WHAT DOES THE WORD FOR THE AREA MEAN? SHALL MEET THE SAME DIMENSIONAL STANDARD AS MASSES ON EITHER SIDE OF THE SPACE VOID. I, I WAS CONFUSED WITH THE WORD FOR THE AREA, VERY MINOR POINT, BUT I TRIED TO UNDERSTAND IT. SHOW ME THE SAME. THAT'S THIS GUY, THE FIRST ONE YOU'RE DEFINING THE MASS, THE SPACE VOID. SO SHOW ME THE SAME DIMENSIONAL STANDARD. I UNDERSTAND IF YOU TAKE OUT FOR THE AREA, TAKE OUT FOR THE AREA, IF THAT IS MM-HMM . THINK ABOUT IT. BUT I, I WAS CONFUSED WITH WHAT AREA MEANT. I I DON'T THINK THAT THAT WOULD CHANGE THE INTENT. AND IF IT'S AN ARCHITECT YOU BELIEVE THAT CLARIFIES IT AND THE REST OF THE COMMISSION AGREES, THEN YEAH, WE'D GO WITH THE ARCHITECT AND THAT'D BE GREAT WITH THE DIAGRAM , IT'S WITH CHILD'S BLOCKS. . MY OTHER QUESTION WAS 8.3 C SIX. IT TALKS ABOUT A COMPLETE APPLICATION. WHAT DEFINES A, DOES THE, DOES THE CODE DEFINE A COMPLETE APPLICATION OR IS THAT UP TO STEVE? I'M SORRY, WHICH UM, SECTION ARE YOU IN? 8.3 C SIX. IT TALKS ABOUT A COMPLETE APPLICATION AND I WAS JUST CURIOUS IF IT DEFINED IT ANYWHERE WHAT A COMPLETE APPLICATION WAS. WE HAVE A, YEAH, WE HAVE AN ADMINISTRATIVE MANUAL THAT OUTLINES EVERYTHING THAT WE NEED IN ORDER FOR A ALRIGHT. ALL RIGHT. MY LAST, UH, MY LAST COMMENT IS GLOBAL IN NATURE AND HAS TO DO WITH THE ENTIRE LDC 5.7 F BUILDING DESIGN. UM, AS AN ARCHITECT, I STARTED TO DEAL WITH THIS IN DES MOINES, [00:30:01] IOWA. I FOUND IT VERY INTRUSIVE INTO THE DESIGN PROCESS AND THE INTRUSIVE INTO CREATING GREAT ARCHITECTURE. SO MY QUESTION HAS TO DO WITH ALL OF THESE BLOCKS AND MASSES AND VOIDS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. UM, I WAS JUST IN SANTA FE AND THERE WAS A GREAT MUSEUM CALLED THE SITE MUSEUMS DOWNTOWN IN THE RAILROAD DISTRICT. IT'S AN AWESOME PIECE OF ARCHITECTURE. IT WOULD NEVER COMPLY WITH OUR, OUR CODE. UM, WE HAVE AN UPCOMING, THE MUSEUM OF THE WEST AND DOWNTOWN OLD SCOTTSDALE IS A GREAT PIECE OF ARCHITECTURE AND IT WOULD NOT COMPLY WITH OUR CODE. I THINK ABOUT THE UPCOMING, UH, SEDONA FILM FESTIVAL BUILDING. WHAT IT COULD BE IS A MODERN PIECE OF ARCHITECTURE WITH EXPANSES OF GLASS AND MATERIALITY INSTEAD OF HAVING MASSES EVERY 30 FOOT AND REVEALS AND HAVING DIFFERENCE IN THE MASSES. AND IT MAY NOT EVEN WORK WITH THE PROPORTION OF THE SPACES. SO MY QUESTION IS, IF A GREAT PIECE OF, UH, I MEAN JUST THINK OF ANY FRANK GARRY'S WORK. OBVIOUSLY FRANK GARRY'S PROBABLY NOT GONNA DO ANY WORK IN SEDONA, BUT HIGHLY ACCLAIMED ARCHITECTURE. UH, HOW, HOW DOES THE CITY DEAL WITH A GREAT PROJECT THAT HAS GREAT POTENTIAL FOR ARCHITECTURAL MERIT? DOES IT STILL HAVE IT, IT CAN'T GET OUT OF THIS BUILDING DESIGN MASSING. IT HAS TO COMPLY WITH THAT. I'M JUST, I'M JUST CURIOUS AND I'D BE FRUSTRATED IF I HAD A GREAT PROJECT IN SEDONA AND I HAD TO DEAL WITH WHAT SEEMS TO BE PROGRAMMING BUILDINGS TO ALL LOOK THE SAME. SO IS THERE, IF, IF SIF WANTS TO DO A GREAT PIECE OF ARCHITECTURE AND USE TITANIUM ON THE OUTSIDE, UM, I SAY I READ THEY CAN'T. SO IS THERE ANY OPTION FOR GREAT ARCHITECTURE IN THE CITY OF SEDONA WITH THIS CODE? I MEAN, I DON'T, I'M NOT GONNA SPEAK ON WHAT GRADE ARCHITECTURE IS. THAT'S PROBABLY A LITTLE BIT SUBJECTIVE. BUT, UM, IN MY EXPERIENCE IN WORKING WITH ARCHITECTS, THE ONES WHO HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE ONES THAT READ THROUGH OUR CODE HAVE FIND IT FAIRLY EASY TO MEET OUR STANDARDS. UM, IF THERE IS MORE, UM, YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD VERY SIMILAR ARCHITECTURE STANDARDS THE WHOLE TIME I'VE BEEN HERE. ARCHITECTS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MEET THOSE STANDARDS. THE CITY COUNCIL DOES HAVE ON THEIR PRIORITY LIST FOR THIS YEAR, UH, AN UPDATE TO THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE THAT, UM, WE'LL LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE THINGS A LITTLE MORE COMPREHENSIVELY. AND THE CITY AND THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION WILL BE INVOLVED IN THAT. SO IF THERE IS A DESIRE FROM THE COMMISSION TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT, THERE WILL LIKELY BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT IN THE COMING COMING YEAR, NEXT YEAR OR SO. AND I, AND I'M SURE ARCHITECTS CAN, YOU KNOW, WORK WITH THE LANGUAGE 'CAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO, BUT IT, IT JUST SEEMS TO POTENTIALLY HAMPER SOME GREAT CIVIC PROJECTS THAT MIGHT STEP OUT OF THE MASS RULES THAT WE HAVE. I JUST HAD TO SAY THAT 'CAUSE I THREW UP WHEN I READ IT. THAT, THANKFULLY THAT'S ALL I HAVE. PERRY . KURT, I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU. . UM, SECTION 8.3 POINT H TWO, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT APPEAL, YOU KNOW, AND WE REMOVED ANY MEMBER OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND THEN CHANGED IT TO PERSON AGGRIEVED BY A DECISION. MM-HMM . I'M CURIOUS, HOW DO WE DEFINE AGGRIEVED? LIKE, DO THEY HAVE TO HAVE LIKE A BURDEN OF PROOF OF THEIR GRIEVANCE OR, I MEAN, COULDN'T THAT REALLY APPLY TO ANYBODY? YEAH, SO WE, WE PURPOSELY LEFT IT UNDEFINED AND BROAD RIGHT NOW 'CAUSE WE'RE NOT TRYING TO ELIMINATE, UH, PEOPLE, BUT WE DIDN'T WANT IT TO BE, UH, NECESSARY SOMEONE ACROSS CLEAR CROSS TOWN THAT COULDN'T ARTICULATE A REASON AS TO WHY THEY'RE AGGRIEVED. SO, OKAY, AT THIS POINT, GIVE US A REASON WHY IT'S A WHY YOU'RE AGGRIEVED AND I DON'T THINK WE WOULD NECESSARILY CHALLENGE THAT, BUT I, I MEAN TECHNICALLY FOR, YOU KNOW, JUST FOR FUN OF ARGUMENT, SOMEBODY ACROSS TOWN MAY HAVE A REASON WHY THEY HAVE A GRIEVANCE, RIGHT? CORRECT. LIKE, SO WHO GETS TO JUDGE IF IT'S AN APPROPRIATE GRIEVANCE? SO I THINK JUST THE, THE PLAIN DEFINITION, IF THEY CAN, IF THEY HAVE A GRIEVANCE SO THEY CAN SAY THEY'RE AGGRIEVED AND THEY CAN GIVE US SOME REASON, THEN I THINK THAT'LL BE SUFFICIENT. OKAY. UH, BUT WE DIDN'T NECESSARILY WANT PERSONS TO HAVE, AND THIS HAS HAPPENED RARELY, BUT SOMETIMES YOU GET PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, PUSHING APPEALS AND THEY HAVE NO CONNECTION AT ALL AND THEY DON'T EVEN SEEM REALLY INTERESTED AND THEY JUST WANT TO SLOW THE PROCESS DOWN. RIGHT. UM, LET'S GIVE US SOME REASON WHY YOU'RE AGGRIEVED AND THEN MM-HMM . THEN YOU CAN QUALIFY. WELL THAT'S, SO THERE ARE ALSO CASE, UH, THERE'S CASE LAW ON THIS AS WELL. OKAY. THAT GOES INTO WHETHER A PERSON'S AGGRIEVED OR NOT. UM, AND WE DIDN'T NECESSARILY WANT TO CITE IT DIRECTLY AND, AND DIDN'T NECESSARILY WANNA GO AS STRICT AS SOME OF THOSE CASES ARE EITHER. RIGHT. UM, SO LIKE EVEN IN THOSE EXAMPLES, PEOPLE THAT SLOW IT DOWN, RIGHT, THEY'RE AGGRIEVED, LIKE RIGHT [00:35:01] , I MEAN, THEY FEEL THEY COULD, THEY DIDN'T ARTICULATE A REASON WHY EVER. I WAS JUST CURIOUS IF THERE HAD TO BE SOMEBODY THAT, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY FOUND A, YOU KNOW, WHO JUDGES IF IT'S AN APPROPRIATE GRIEVANCE OR NOT. AND YOU'RE SAYING BASICALLY IF SOMEBODY, IT WOULD BE A REASONABLE PERSON STANDARD. SO IF, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST THE, WHAT THE DEFINITION OF A GRIEVANCE IS. OKAY. AT THIS POINT, UH, IF AT SOME TIME THAT BECAME UNWORKABLE AND MANAGEABLE, THEN WE MIGHT HAVE TO COME BACK AND CREATE A DEFINITION OR, OR SCRAP IT. OKAY. IT JUST, IT MADE ME LAUGH. IT WAS FUNNY. . ALL RIGHT. ANY OTHER COMMENTS ON THESE THREE AREAS? UM, I THINK MINE IS ON THESE THREE AREAS, 8.4 POINT A MM-HMM . UH, IT'S, WE'RE GOING FROM 5,000 TO 2000 SQUARE FEET FOR REVIEW. UM, IS THAT RELATED TO WHAT'S DEFINED IN HB 2, 4, 4 7? OR ARE WE JUST TAKING THE BOTTOM END OF MINOR AND MAKING IT YEAH, THE 8 2 4 4 7 DOESN'T SET A THRESHOLD, BUT UM, OUR CURRENT THRESHOLDS IS 2000 TO 5,000 REQUIRE MINOR DEVELOPMENT REVIEW AND ABOVE THE 5,000 IS MAJOR, SO WE WON'T MOVE. SO WOULD THE, SO TODAY A PROJECT THAT WAS 2000 SQUARE FEET HAVE A DIFFERENT BUR TRYING AGAIN, WOULD SOMEONE GOING THROUGH A MINOR DEVELOPMENT REVIEW HAVE A DIFFERENT BURDEN AFTER THIS HAS PASSED? NO. COOL. YOU KNOW, YOU GOT WHAT I, YEAH, SO BASICALLY, I MEAN, IF WE'RE GONNA, ARE WE GONNA MOVE INTO TALKING ABOUT HB 2, 4, 4, 7 CHANGES? THIS IS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE SQUARE FOOTAGE. SO I'M NOT TRYING TO TALK ABOUT THE ACTUAL, I WAS WONDERING IF THE ACTUAL ACT WAS LIKE, IT HAS TO BE 2000. YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? THAT'S, I WASN'T ACTUALLY TRYING TO, AND THE CHANGES, BECAUSE WE HAVE THE MINOR DEVELOPMENT REVIEW PROCESS RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAL. SO AS WE WERE MAKING THE CHANGES, WE, SO IT'S BASICALLY PUTTING EVERYTHING IN, SO THE SAME REVIEW PROCESS AS IS CURRENTLY USED FOR THE PROJECTS BETWEEN TWO AND 5,000 SQUARE FEET. SO THE PROCESS FOR OVER 5,000 WOULD STILL BE DIFFERENT? NO, IT'S ALL THE SAME. NO, IT'S, THAN IT'S UNDER THE CHANGES, IT WOULD ALL BE THE SAME. BUT WE BASED IT ON THE PROCESS THAT'S CURRENTLY USED FOR PROJECTS BETWEEN TWO AND 5,000. IT USED TO BE DIFFERENT FOR THOSE OVER 5,000. YEAH. AND NOW IT'S GONNA BE THE SAME. OKAY. I WAS WONDERING WHO WAS SHIFTING, WERE THE 2000 SQUARE FOOT PEOPLE GETTING MORE TO DO OR WERE THE 5,000 SQUARE FOOT PEOPLE DOING GETTING LESS AND IT SOUNDS LIKE 5,000 GETTING LESS BECAUSE OF GOT IT. THEN I HAVE NOTHING ABOUT THAT. ANYTHING ELSE ON THESE TOPICS? OKAY. ALRIGHT, LET'S TURN OUR ATTENTION TO, UM, THE LEGISLATION THAT WAS RECENTLY PASSED AND HAS BEEN APPLIED TO ALL CITIES AND TOWNS IN THE STATE OF ARIZONA UNDER HB 2, 4, 4, 7. UM, YOU, UM, TO APPROACH THIS , I THINK WE HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO DOES WHAT I, OR THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHO DOES WHAT, BUT PERHAPS WE MIGHT WANNA MAKE SOME SUGGESTIONS ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO PRESERVE MORE OF THE PUBLIC PROCESS. SO JUST TO UNDERSCORE THAT POINT, WHICH FOR ME SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ONES, IS THAT THERE, UH, WE'RE SEPARATING THE, UM, PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT IN, IN THE CITY BETWEEN HAVING ADMINISTRATIVE ONLY REVIEW AND NO PUBLIC HEARINGS AND OTHER ITEMS LIKE REZONING AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMITS, UM, WOULD HAVE PUBLIC HEARINGS AND THEY WOULD STILL BE IN OUR PURVIEW. SO I'VE COMMUNICATED A LOT WITH KURT OVER THE LAST COUPLE DAYS ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH, UM, WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO ENCOURAGE, UM, MORE PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. WHAT I'VE READ AND WHAT YOU'VE READ IS THAT THE CITY RETAINS THE SAME RESPONSIBILITY FOR NOTIFICATION, POSTING THE PROPERTY, SENDING A LETTER TO ADJACENT PROPERTY OWNERS WITHIN, WAS IT THREE OR FIVE? IT'S 300, 300 FEET MM-HMM . AND, UM, PLACING THAT MATTER IN THE NEWSPAPER. SO THAT'S THE, THAT REMAINS UNCHANGED. AND WHAT CHANGES IS NOT DOING PUBLIC HEARINGS BY THIS BODY. SO HOW DO WE THEN ENGAGE THE PUBLIC WITHOUT VIOLATING THE TERMS OF THIS LEGISLATION? HOW DO WE COUNT? CAN WE EXPAND UPON IN SOME OTHER FASHION, UM, A WAY TO ENSURE THAT THE PUBLIC HAS A PLACE [00:40:01] AT THE TABLE AND THIS COMMUNITY HAS SHOWN ITSELF TO BE ACTIVE, SHOW UP, UM, AND PROVIDE GOOD SUGGESTIONS FOR THE WAY THAT WE, UM, EVALUATE DEVELOPMENTS. IN FACT, THE BEST DEVELOPMENTS COME FROM COLLABORATION. PEOPLE THAT COME HERE AND SUGGEST CHANGES, THE ONES THAT WE SEE AND THE ONES THAT STAFF, UH, ENABLES US TO UNDERSTAND WOULD ALSO IMPROVE THE PROJECT. SO THAT GOES AWAY WITH THIS LEGISLATION. AND, UM, STARTING WITH THE CRITERIA TO PERMIT THESE CHANGES TO, TO TAKE PLACE. I JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT I DIDN'T FEEL THAT IT WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE CRITERIA THAT'S LISTED THERE. UM, IT SAYS THAT, UH, THESE CHANGES NEED TO BE CONSISTENT WITH THE SEDONA COMMUNITY PLAN. AND SO I LOOKED TO THE COM COMMUNITY PLAN TO SEE IF I CAN FIND ANY LANGUAGE THAT MIGHT SUGGEST THAT THEY ARE NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE COMMUNITY PLAN. SO I WENT TO THE SECTION ON COMMUNITY AND, UM, ON PAGE IS IT, SEE IF I CAN GET THERE ON, ON THE, UM, SECTION REGARDING COMMUNITY, UH, ACTIONS UNDER THE SUBSECTION OR RATHER ON THE CHAPTER ENTITLED COMMUNITY. UM, ONE OF THE ACTIONS IS IMPROVE CITY PROCEDURES, PAGE 31 TO BETTER INCORPORATE COMMUNITY PLAN GOALS AND PRIORITIES, PUBLIC INPUT AND DEVELOPMENT STANDARDS AT THE PLANNING AND DESIGN STAGE. SO I WOULD SAY THAT IT'S NOT CONSISTENT WITH THAT. ONE OF THE OTHER CRITERIA IS, UM, THAT IT MUST, THESE CHANGES, UM, MUST BE A NECESSARY TO ADDRESS A, A, UH, DEMONSTRATED COMMUNITY NEED. AND I THINK IT'S JUST THE OPPOSITE. MM-HMM . WE DON'T HAVE A COMMUNITY NEED FOR LESS INVOLVEMENT, DO WE? NO. NO. SO I WOULD, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IT'S NOT CONSISTENT WITH THOSE TWO CRITERIA. UM, SO BECAUSE THESE PRO PROPOSED, UM, AMENDMENTS ELIMINATE PUBLIC HEARINGS ON NEW DEVELOPMENT AND SUBDIVISIONS, UH, IT MEANS THAT THE STAFF, A DESIGNATED STAFF PERSON AND OTHERS WITHIN THE, UH, CITY OF SEDONA WILL BE MAKING THIS DECISION WITHOUT BROAD PUBLIC INPUT. UNLESS PERHAPS WE CAN SUGGEST WAYS FOR THAT TO HAPPEN. UM, YOU WILL RECEIVE MORE DIRECT, UH, EMAIL. UM, THE DEPARTMENT WILL RECEIVE MORE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GONNA HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO COME HERE AND EXPRESS THEMSELVES. UM, SO I ASKED OUR CITY ATTORNEY IF WE COULD HOLD PUBLIC MEETINGS, WE'RE BEING PROHIBITED FROM HOLDING PUBLIC HEARINGS, BUT HE TOLD ME THEY'RE ONE AND THE SAME, SO WE CAN'T COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT NAME. I KNOW, I KNOW. I DIDN'T LIKE IT EITHER. UM, A PUBLIC HEARING IS A PUBLIC MEETING AND VICE VERSA, SO WE CAN'T GET IT AROUND THAT WAY. UM, AND THEN I ASKED HIM IF PERHAPS WE COULD HAVE AN ALL BOATMAN THAT COULD SERVE THE CITY, UM, AND, UM, BE, BE A POINT OF COLLECTION FOR THE INFORMATION THAT THE PUBLIC MIGHT OTHERWISE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE IN A, IN A PUBLIC SETTING. AND HE THOUGHT THAT MIGHT HAVE LEGS SO THAT WE WOULD HAVE A POINT OF CONTACT FOR THE COMMUNITY TO PROVIDE COMMENTS ON DEVELOPMENTS. SO, UM, THAT'S, THAT'S MY THINKING, UH, SO FAR. IS THAT A VOLUNTEER POSITION OR IS THAT A CITY EMPLOYEE OR, I THINK IT SEEMS LIKE IT BE A CITY EMPLOYEE. WOULDN'T THAT BE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST? IT WOULD BE ANCILLARY MM-HMM . HOPEFULLY HELPFUL. RIGHT. TO THE WHOLE PROCESS THAT'S BEING UNLOADED ON THE COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT. I THINK IT REALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE WHAT LEVEL AND BACKGROUND THIS PERSON MIGHT BE. MM-HMM . MM-HMM . BECAUSE TO BE A CENTRAL COLLECTION POINT AND TO, TO ADD NOTHING TO THE PROCESS, YOU KNOW, TO COLLECT RIGHT. YOU COULD HAVE ANYBODY DO THAT. RIGHT. UM, SO TO OPERATIONALIZE THAT, WE WOULD MAYBE BE LOOKING FOR A SPECIFIC KIND OF BACKGROUND LIKE ARCHITECTURE OR, UM, COMMUNITY PLANNING OR SOMETHING THAT WOULD ADD BE ADDITIVE AND WOULD BE THE KIND OF, UM, [00:45:03] SIFTING PROCESS. I, I THINK, UM, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT'S GONNA HAVE A LOT OF MEETINGS BETWEEN NOW AND DECEMBER ON HOW THEY'RE GONNA OPERATIONALIZE THIS. UM, COULD I BRANCH OFF FOR A MINUTE? SURE. IT SEEMS LIKE COMMUNICATION AND UNDERSTANDING THE TIMELINE IS GOING TO BE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT SAYS OUTREACH IS REQUIRED, BUT HOW WILL THE PUBLIC COMMENT COMMENTS AND WISHES BE ASSESSED? IT ALSO SAYS THEY HAVE TO BE RECEIVED BEFORE THE FINAL DECISION IS RENDERED. WHAT, FIVE MINUTES BEFORE YOU NEED A, YOU KNOW, YOU NEED A TIMELINE OF MM-HMM . VERY CLEAR. SOMETHING COMES IN THE PUBLIC HAS WHATEVER IT IS, 10 DAYS, 20 DAYS. YEAH. UH, AND, AND THEN THERE HAS TO BE A PERIOD OF TIME TO ACTUALLY ASSESS THAT MM-HMM . AND, AND THAT ALL HAS TO BE EXTREMELY CLEAR. OTHERWISE IT'S JUST GONNA BE MORE FRUSTRATING FOR THE PUBLIC. SO YEAH, I WOULD REALLY ENCOURAGE MM-HMM . CLARITY AND A TIMELINE. MM-HMM . CAN I, CAN I ADDRESS THAT A LITTLE BIT? NOT THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT ALREADY, BUT, SO LIKE I, AS I WAS SAYING, WHEN, UM, COLLIE WAS ASKING ABOUT THE SQUARE FOOTAGE, WE BASED THESE PROCEDURES ON OUR CURRENT PROCESS FOR MINOR DEVELOPMENT REVIEW, WHICH DOES REQUIRE, SO, WHICH DOES REQUIRE PUBLIC NOTIFICATION. UM, AND THE, AND WE USE THE SAME PROCESS FOR MINOR MODIFICATION, THE OLD ADMINISTRATIVE WAIVER PROCESS AND MINOR DEVELOPMENT REVIEW. UM, THERE'S PROBABLY SOMETHING ELSE THAT I'M FORGETTING. UM, BUT THE WAY THE PROCESS WORKS IS THAT WE SEND OUT A NOTIFICATION TO THE PROPERTY OWNERS WITHIN THE RADIUS AND WE GIVE THEM A MINIMUM OF 15 DAYS TO APP TO SUBMIT COMMENTS TO RE YOU KNOW, REVIEW THE, THE MATERIALS THAT ARE ON THE WEBSITE, UM, SUBMIT COMMENTS. THOSE ARE CONSIDERED BY THE DEPARTMENT, BY THE DIRECTOR IN MAKING A DECISION. AND THEN IF ANYBODY HAS SUBMITTED COMMENTS, THEY ARE ALERTED OF THE DECISION THAT IS MADE. BECAUSE IF THEY'RE GOING TO APPEAL IT AND THEY ARE AGGRIEVED, UM, THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A, A TIMEFRAME THAT THEY CAN DO THAT. AND APPEALS OF DIRECTOR DECISIONS WOULD STILL COME TO THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION. SO THE WAY THE PROCESS WOULD WORK IS THAT ONCE WE GET IT TO, OKAY, WE THINK, YOU KNOW, THIS IS GETTING CLOSE TO THE FINAL VERSION, WE WOULD SEND OUT A NOTIFICATION TO THAT RADIUS, GIVE THEM AT LEAST 15 DAYS TO RESPOND. THEY WOULD, AND WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT MAKING THE DECISION AT 15 DAYS. WE'RE SAYING WITHIN 15 DAYS YOU NEED TO SUBMIT COMMENTS, PART OF THE REVIEW, WE'LL REVIEW ALL THE COMMENTS. HAVE WE MISSED SOMETHING? HAVE WE FORGOTTEN SOMETHING? DO WE NEED TO GO BACK TO THE APPLICANT AND SAY, YOU NEED TO ADDRESS X, Y, OR Z. THIS PROCESS DOES ALSO REQUIRE THEM TO DO THEIR CITIZEN PARTICIPATION. SO HOPEFULLY THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THIS WOULD BE THEIR SEC, THE PROPERTY OWNER SECOND NOTIFICATION OF THE PROJECT. SO THEY WOULD'VE GOTTEN THE FIRST NOTIFICATION FROM THE PROPERTY OWNER, THE APPLICANT ON THE PROJECT. AND THEN ANYBODY WHO HAS SUBMITTED A COMMENT, ONCE THE DECISION IS MADE, WOULD BE ALERTED TO THAT DECISION AND THEY COULD REVIEW THAT AND MAKE A DECISION OF WHETHER THEY WANTED TO APPEAL IT. BUT OFTEN THE IMPACT IS MUCH FURTHER THAN THE 300 FEET. AND THAT'S, THAT'S REALLY THE RUB THAT'S, IS THAT WE HAVE PROJECTS THAT HAVE COMMUNITY IMPACTS, COMMUNITY WIDE IMPACTS. RIGHT. AND THAT'S OUR CURRENT NOTIFICATION. YEAH. SO I DONE QUITE A BIT OF RESEARCH AS WELL. I REACHED OUT TO SEVERAL CITIES AND A FEW ATTORNEYS TO REVIEW THIS AS WELL. UM, THIS, THE BIGGEST SUGGESTION THAT I GOT FROM MULTIPLE FOLKS WAS THAT WE NEED TO INCREASE THE RADIUS TO 500 FEET OR MORE TO GET MORE FOLKS IN. AND YOU KNOW, AS KATHY, YOU WERE IN MY INTERVIEW AND ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS THAT I CARE ABOUT IS COMMUNITY INPUT. MM-HMM . AND I OFTEN ASK FOR IT WHEN MAYBE MY HEAD'S GONNA GET SHOT OFF. UM, I DIFFUSED AN IMAGE ISSUE FOR THE CITY RECENTLY. THERE WAS AN OPEN MEETING REGARDING, UM, ST. JOHN ANTE'S EXPANSION THROUGH MULTIPLE RESOURCES. IT WAS GOT OUT THAT I'M ON HOA BOARD AND ON PLANNING AND ZONING. SO MY PHONE LIT UP AND I HAD SOME FOLKS CALL ME. THE FIRST QUESTION I GOT WAS, WHY WASN'T ANYONE FROM THE CITY THERE TALKING ABOUT THE HOUSING COMPONENT, ABOUT THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING? WHY WASN'T ANYONE FROM THE CITY EXPLAINING TO US HOW THIS PROCESS WORKED? SO WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME DIRECTING THEM TO THE VERY DIFFICULT PATH TO WHERE OUR DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS [00:50:01] ARE AND THE BLUE LINK TO PUT THEIR COMMENTS IN MM-HMM . AND THERE'S THAT OPPORTUNITY AT THAT COMMUNITY OUTREACH THAT'S LED BY THE DEVELOPER THAT CITY STAFF SHOULD BE PRESENT AT BECAUSE IT IT, IT HELPS BREAK UP THIS TYPE OF, OH MY GOODNESS, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THERE. WHAT THE HECK IS THIS ? I STILL CAN'T FIGURING OUT HOW TO STOP. I'M SORRY. I DON'T KNOW WHY IT STARTED. THERE WE GO. RELEASING MY GUILT. IT IS POPPING UP ON MY THING. I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T HAVE ANY GUILT, I PROMISE. BUT HOW TO GET MORE CITY PARTICIPATION. AND OF COURSE WE KNOW THAT BUDGETS ARE IN THERE. WE KNOW, 'CAUSE WE'VE, WE'VE ALL RUN COMPANIES, WE'VE ALL RUN, BEEN IN CITIES THAT THIS IS GONNA PUT SO MUCH STRAIN ON DEVELOPMENT. IT'S EVERY SINGLE HOW TO GET THAT TIMELINE THROUGH, HOW TO GET THE INPUT THROUGH AND QUICKLY AND FAST. AND YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T TELL PEOPLE, OH, WE DON'T HAVE STAFF. YOU HAVE TO DO IT. IT'S THE LAW. SO WHERE CAN WE START WITH THAT AND WHAT CAN HAPPEN? AND, AND IT'S, IT'S, IT'S, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S SOME OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE CITY, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THE CITY HAS THE RESOURCES, BUT CURRENTLY THE CITY DOESN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO ALL THIS. BUT I'D LOVE TO SEE THE EXPANSION FURTHER. UM, I'D LIKE WHAT WAS PUT IN LIKE ABOUT THE NEWSPAPER AND THE POSTING OF THE SIGNS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. LIKE AS IF THERE WAS A HEARING. I THINK THAT'S GREAT, BUT WHAT MORE CAN WE DO? YEAH. BUT THAT'S STANDARD. THAT'S UNCHANGED. YEAH. YEAH. THAT'S BEEN THE MO NOW IT WILL BE WITHOUT PUBLIC HEARINGS. RIGHT. CAN I ASK A CLARIFICATION ABOUT THE APPEALS PROCESS QUESTION? MM-HMM . THAT, UM, HYPOTHETICALLY THE MOST HYPOTHETICALLY, WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE MEETINGS. WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THE THINGS WE DO IF AN APPEAL COMES TO US. SO APPEALS COME TO US. MM-HMM . IF THEY HAVE MERIT AND GRIEVANCE, THEN DO WE DO WHAT WE NORMALLY DO WHEN THEY COME TO US DURING APPEALS? HYPOTHETICALLY, IF EVERY SINGLE THING WAS GRIEVED AND APPEALED, WOULD THEY CONTINUE AS OUR BODY, OUR OUR PROCESS WOULD VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW, JUST WITHOUT THE LAST STEP OF PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION. SO WE, WHEN WE DO MINOR DEVELOPMENT REVIEW, WE STILL DO THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE CHECKLIST. WE STILL DO FINDINGS. WE WRITE ALL OF THAT UP. AND SO IF SOMEONE WERE TO APPEAL IT, THEY WOULD HAVE TO APPEAL IT BASED ON OUR, ON CODE, ON THE CODE THAT WE DIDN'T APPLY CODE CORRECTLY. THAT THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PROJECT THAT DOESN'T MEET CODE. SO THEY WOULD STILL HAVE THAT, THERE WOULD STILL BE THAT DOCUMENT. RIGHT. UM, WITH THE FINDINGS, WITH THE CHECKLIST, WITH ALL OF THAT, THE VOID OF THE MASSING ISN'T CORRECT. RIGHT. AND SO, OR IT DIDN'T FIT THE COMMUNITY PLAN OR THE CFA. SO THOSE ARE FOUR ZONE CHANGES, WHICH WOULD STILL BE COMING TO THE COMMISSION. I UNDERSTAND THE ZONING CHANGES, BUT WHAT ABOUT SOMEONE WILL LOOK AT THE, I KNOW, I KNOW THE CHURCH PROJECT IS STILL IN YOUR REVIEW, BUT EVERYONE THAT'S IN THAT AREA SAYS IT DOESN'T BELONG TO THE CFA. I KNOW THAT'S A ZONING THING AS WELL. SO THAT IS A ZONING CASE THAT WILL BE COMING TO RIGHT. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGARDLESS OF THIS PROCESS. SO WHAT ABOUT LIKE THE HOTEL OR WESTERN GATEWAY IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THE CFA THING AND I GUESS THAT WAS A ZONING CHANGE AS WELL WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT SAFE PLACE TO PARK. THAT WAS A ZONING CHANGE AS WELL. YES. YES. YEAH. SO I, I GUESS I'M CONFUSED NOW. 'CAUSE NOW IT'S NOT ARIE NOW IT'S ONLY IF IT VIOLATES CODE THAT THEY CAN APPEAL. NO. SO YOU ANYONE CAN FILE AN APPEAL AND THEN IT'LL BE WEIGHED ON THE WEIGHED ON THE MERIT. SO BACK TO, UM, TO THE QUESTION ABOUT APPEALS, THOSE ARE, THAT'S NOT INCLUDED IN THE, THE CHANGE. SO THE REVIEW AND APPROVAL WILL BE DONE ADMINISTRATIVELY THROUGH STAFF, BUT THEN AN APPEAL WAS NOT INCLUDED IN THE STATE LAW DEFINITION OR THAT SECTION. SO APPEALS WILL STILL COME TO P AND Z AND THEN CAN BE FURTHER APPEALED TO CITY COUNCIL AND THEN FURTHER APPEALED TO THE SUPERIOR COURT. SO WHAT'S THE BARRIER? LIKE THE, THE CRITERIA? YEAH. WHAT'S THE, WHAT'S THE BARRIER OF PROOF FOR THE APPEAL? SO YOU, YOU GUYS WOULD BE THE THE DECISION ARBITERS THE DECISION. YEAH. OKAY. SO ANY APPEAL WILL COME TO US REGARDLESS OF THE CORRECT. SO IF ANYONE WANTS TO PAY THE $750 OR THAT'S WHAT IT IS. YEAH. YEAH. SEVEN $50 AND UM, THEY CAN, YOU KNOW, LIVES WITHIN THE 300 FEET NOW OR IF COUNCIL OR COMMISSION CHANGES AT 500 FEET, WHATEVER THAT ENDS UP BEING, UM, OR IS AGGRIEVED AND THEN THEY CAN FILE THE APPEAL WHEN IT COMES TO, OH MY GOD, COULD I TAG, COULD I TAG ONTO THAT? ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CONCERNS ME IS WE WEAR TWO DIFFERENT HATS. YEAH. WHAT YOU DO IS [00:55:01] FOLLOWING THE CODE AND, AND YOU'RE APPLYING THE CODE. WE, UH, WANNA MAKE SURE THAT'S DONE ALSO, OBVIOUSLY, BUT I PRETTY MUCH TRUST THAT YOU'VE GOTTEN THAT RIGHT. UM, BUT WE DO HAVE SOME DISCRETION WITH MM-HMM . SOME INTERPRETATION. MM-HMM . IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE GONNA CONTINUE TO DO IT THE WAY YOU DO IT. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT, UM, BUILT IN INTERPRETATION ABILITY. THIS FITS WITHIN THE COMMUNITY PLAN GOALS OR THIS DOES NOT MEET, UM, THE CFA'S GUIDANCE OR WHATEVER. YOU'RE NOT AS MUCH GOING TO BE ABLE TO INTERPRET THAT. SO, SO DEVELOPMENT REVIEWS AND SUBDIVISIONS, WHICH IS WHAT THIS ADDRESSES. SH IT'S NOT JUST SUBDIVISIONS THOUGH. SO DEVELOPMENT REVIEWS AND SUBDIVISIONS, WHICH IS, AND SUBDIVISION AND LOT SPLITS, WHICH IS, IS KIND OF LIKE A SUBDIVISION AND JUST SUBDIVISION, WHICH ARE ALREADY DONE ADMINISTRATIVELY. UM, THOSE ARE, THOSE SHOULD BE BASED ON THE CRITERIA IN THE CODE. IF YOU'RE NOT GETTING A DEVELOPMENT, LIKE IF THERE'S A DEVELOPMENT THAT COMES THROUGH THAT'S, WE FIND IT'S FULLY CODE COMPLIANT, BUT THE COMMISSION SAYS, BUT WE DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS WHAT SEDONA WANTS, THEN THAT'S A CODE ISSUE THAT WE NEED TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE CODE. YOU GENERALLY CAN'T DENY A DEVELOPMENT REVIEW IF IT MEETS ALL OF THOSE CRITERIA. AND SO THAT'S WHEN THINGS LIKE LAND DESIGN CHANGES, YOU KNOW, DESIGN REVIEW CRITERIA IN THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE, THAT'S WHEN, YOU KNOW THINGS LIKE THE COMMUNITY PLAN AND THE CFA PLANS, ALL OF THOSE WILL STILL BE COMING TO THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION. SO IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN COMING UP THAT IT'S, THIS DEVELOPMENT ISN'T FITTING WHAT THE COMMISSION OR THE COUNCIL IMAGINES IT SHOULD BE, THEN THAT IS A CODE ISSUE THAT WE WOULD HAVE TO ADDRESS THROUGH A CHANGE TO THE CODE. OKAY. LET'S NOT NECESSARILY A, CAN I ADD ON TO THAT TO BE MORE SPECIFIC TO SOME OF THE EXAMPLES IN, IN WHICH WE'VE ASKED FOR MORE. OKAY. WHETHER IT WAS ROOFTOP SOLAR OR EV STATIONS OR THE TYPE OF PERMEABLE SURFACES, UM, WE'VE BEEN PRETTY FREE MM-HMM . WITH OUR SUGGESTIONS TO IMPROVE THE PROJECT MM-HMM . BUT BY CODE THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MANDATED. THAT'S THE DISCRETION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OR OUR ABILITY TO APPLY IT AND ADMINISTRATIVELY THEIR, THEIR INABILITY TO GO BEYOND THE CODE OR FLIPPING IT, FOR EXAMPLE, SADDLE ROCK, SADDLEBROOK, WHATEVER, SADDLE ROCK, THAT WAS A ZONE CHANGE. OKAY. AND THEN A DEVELOPMENT REVIEW AND, AND IT DID NOT MEET THE CFA AS IT HAD BEEN AMENDED, BUT WE OVERRODE THAT AND THEN COUNCIL ALSO OVERRODE THAT AND APPROVED IT BECAUSE IT WAS A ZONE CHANGE APPLICATION. SO THOSE APPLICATIONS WOULD STILL BE COMING TO THE COMMIT THROUGH A PUBLIC HEARING. OKAY. I'M, I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. DO YOU GET WHAT I'M SAYING? I DO . I DO. THANK YOU. YEAH. SEE, YOU'RE BEING PICKY AGAIN, , I, I'M, I'M SAYING I THINK WE HAVE LATITUDE, UM, TO, AND THERE'S ACTUAL LANGUAGE THAT I SAID INFLUENCE. IT CAN, UM, YOU CAN MAKE AN EXCEPTION, UH, FOR A PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCE, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO FIT WITHIN THE CFA. MM-HMM . THERE'S SOME LANGUAGE SOMEWHERE LIKE THAT. AND WE HAVE USED THAT. UM, I'M AFRAID YOU CAN'T USE THAT. MM-HMM . IN, IN YOUR ANALYSIS. AND SO THEN MAYBE TO ANSWER WHAT, UM, YOUR CONCERN WAS, WAS IF IT CAME TO US AS AN APPEAL, CAN WE GO BACK TO USING THAT BECAUSE THAT WAS WITHIN OUR AUTHORITY BEFORE. YEAH, NO, WE DIDN'T. OR CAN WE ONLY LOOK AT, UM, ITEMS OF FACT THAT MAY HAVE BEEN INTERPRETED INCORRECTLY, POSSIBLY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? I'M GONNA BACK TO US. STEVE WANTS TO TALK, LOOK AT COMMISSION. UM, I'M GONNA SAY THIS AND WAIT FOR KURT TO CORRECT ME, BUT WHEN IT GOES THROUGH AN APPEAL, THERE ARE SPECIFICS AS TO WHAT THEY ARE APPEALING. SO THAT IS WHAT YOU WOULD BE REVIEWING, UM, NOT KNOWING THAT BEING ABLE TO DO, LET'S SAY DEVELOPMENT REVIEW OF SAYING, WELL, WE ALSO THINK YOU SHOULD ADD THIS AND YOU SHOULD ADD THIS AND YOU SHOULD ADD THIS. YOU THEN WOULD BE, UM, BASICALLY HELD TO WHAT THE APPEAL STANDARDS ARE AND WHAT THEY ARE APPEALING SPECIFICALLY. SO YOU WOULD THEN BE MAKING THAT DECISION ON WHETHER OR NOT STAFF PROPERLY, UH, APPLIED THAT SECTION OR WHATEVER THAT APPEAL MIGHT BE BASED UPON. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT APPEAL PROCESS THEN GIVES YOU THE LATITUDE TO GO FURTHER. KURT. WELL, THAT'S GONNA REQUIRE SOME RETRAINING. [01:00:01] FOR YOUR SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. COMPLIANCE WITH CFA PLANS. THOSE ARE, THAT'S GENERALLY COMES UP DURING A ZONE CHANGE APPLICATION, WHICH ARE NOT AFFECTED BY THIS BILL. MM-HMM . OKAY. YEAH. AND THAT'S WHY I WAS GONNA SAY, I THINK ALL THE EXAMPLES YOU'VE GIVEN ARE, ARE ZONE CHANGE EXAMPLES. AND SO YOU'LL STILL BE ABLE TO WEIGH IT AGAINST THE COMMUNITY PLAN. UM, SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY ZONED COMMERCIAL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S GONNA BE IN THE COMMUNITY PLAN THAT WAY IT'S GONNA BE IN THE FUTURE LAND USE MAP AS COMMERCIAL. SO THERE'S LIKE, IT'S NOT GONNA BE INCONSISTENT WITH THE COMMUNITY PLAN. SO, UH, IN GENERAL, I AGREE WITH CARRIE THAT THE, UH, SUBDIVISIONS AND DEVELOPMENT REVIEW WERE ALWAYS VERY KIND OF FACT SPECIFIC AND, AND CODE BASE AND HP 24 47 REQUIRES IT TO BE JUDGED ON OBJECTIVE STANDARDS. UM, IT, THERE'S A DEFINITION IN THERE AT THE VERY END OF THAT, THE NEW, THE NEW LAW THAT DEF DEFINES THAT PRETTY NARROWLY. SO, BUT, UM, DEVELOPMENT REVIEW, WOULD YOU AGREE IS NOT ALWAYS STRICTLY FACT-BASED. NO, I I FEEL LIKE IT GENERALLY IS, THERE WASN'T, WELL, GENERALLY IT IS. YEAH. I MEAN, YEAH, THERE, I'M SURE THERE'S, I CAN'T THINK OF AN EXAMPLE. SO FOR EXAMPLE, THE ONE THAT CAME UP WAS ARABELLA SPA AND, UH, THIS COMMISSION, I BELIEVE, AND COUNCIL REJECTED IT. MM-HMM . UH, FOUND IT DIDN'T, BECAUSE IT USED TOO MUCH WATER, BUT THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE CODE ANYWHERE THAT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WATER USE. MM-HMM . UH, AND THEN COUNCIL ON RECONSIDERATION, UH, APPROVE THAT, AND HERE WE ARE A COUPLE YEARS LATER AND THEY HAVEN'T BUILT ANYWAY. BUT, SO I GUESS THE SOLUTION TO WHAT WE'RE DISCUSSING IS ACTUALLY WHEN WE GET THE LDC BACK ADJUSTING CODE, RIGHT? YEP, THAT'S RIGHT. IS GIVING COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT THE POWER AND THE CODE LANGUAGE TO MM-HMM . DO THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT MM-HMM . THAT WE WOULD NORMALLY DO. I GUESS THAT'S, I MEAN, THAT'S THE SOLUTION. IF WE CAN'T DO IT OURSELVES, WE MUST EMPOWER. MM-HMM . EIGHT CARRIES WE WILL NEED FOR THIS CHANGE IN 2026 . AND I WILL SAY, EVEN WITH, YOU KNOW, WE'LL STILL GO THROUGH OUR STAFF REVIEW PROCESS WHERE WE DO, WE, YOU KNOW, WE SIT HERE AND WE LISTEN TO WHAT YOU SAY. AND SO WE OFTEN EVEN NOW TRY TO BRING UP THOSE ISSUES WITH OUR APPLICANTS EARLY ON IN THE PROCESS. UM, A LOT OF THE THINGS YOU MENTIONED ARE, YOU KNOW, SUSTAINABILITY WITH THE SOLAR AND PERMEABLE PAVERS. OUR SUSTAINABILITY DEPARTMENT DOES A GREAT JOB OF MAKING THOSE KIND OF SUGGESTIONS. YES. WE DON'T HAVE THE, UM, YOU KNOW, THE CODE TO REQUIRE THINGS. RIGHT. BUT AS FAR AS, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, THROWING OUT IDEAS, WE, WE ARE STILL ABLE TO DO THAT, BUT NOR DO YOU HAVE THE, THE, THE POWER THEM. WE DON'T RIGHT NOW EITHER. SO, OR THE RECOMMENDATION. WE CAN SUGGEST ALL KINDS OF THINGS RIGHT NOW, AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO COMPLY. BUT, YOU KNOW, OFTENTIMES, YOU KNOW, LIKE OUR SUSTAINABILITY FOLKS ARE PRETTY GOOD ABOUT PROVIDING, YOU KNOW, RESOURCES AND IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN THIS, HERE ARE SOME PROGRAMS THEY CAN HELP PAY FOR IT AND THAT SORT OF THING. MM-HMM . SO, BUT THAT'S EXACTLY THE EXAMPLE. EXACTLY. WE'RE ABLE TO MM-HMM . JUST TO MAKE IT SIMPLE, GET MORE, BUT YOU'RE ABLE TO GET MORE DURING THOSE REZONE, WHAT'S THAT? YOU'RE ABLE TO GET MORE DURING A RE ZONE AND YOU'LL STILL BE ABLE TO NOT DURING A DEVELOPMENT REVIEW, WHEN THEY ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHTS TO BUILD WHAT THEY WANNA BUILD. YES. NOW YOU'RE DOWN TO DOES IT MEET CODE OR NOT. RIGHT. RIGHT. AND WE DO GET, WE DO GET IN THE WEEDS, AND SOMETIMES, AND I THINK IN MY BRAIN, I THINK THAT WE CAN ASK FOR MORE, BUT IN TITLE DEVELOP, I, I THINK IT HAPPENS. I THINK THE VERBIAGE COMES UP DURING OUR MEETINGS, BUT WHETHER THE, AND THEN YOU'LL HEAR THE DEVELOPERS SAY, WE'LL TAKE IT UNDER CONSIDERATION. RIGHT? MM-HMM . BECAUSE WE CAN'T ACTUALLY MM-HMM . SO I THINK IT HAPPENS. WE CAN'T HOLD THEM TO IT. YEAH. AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN FINE WITH, WITH THE COMMISSION ASKING FOR, YOU KNOW, ALL TYPES. RIGHT. MORE, AND I THINK THAT'S FINE. IF YOU'RE WILLING TO DO IT, THEN THAT'S GREAT'S THE, JUST OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS LIKE, WE WILL ASK WHETHER WE CAN HOLD THEM TO IT OR NOT. WE'LL ASK, YOU KNOW, I LOOKED AT THE LIST OF PROJECTS ON THE WEBSITE, AND I THINK THERE ARE ABOUT 11, HALF OF THOSE ARE DEVELOPMENT REVIEW, HALF OF THEM ARE REZONES. SO WE WILL BE FORFEITING HALF OF THE DECISION MAKING IF THAT PATTERN CONTINUES. AND THOSE ARE THE PROJECTS THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, THAT ALL OF WHICH, UM, WILL IMPACT THIS COMMUNITY AND WON'T HAVE, UM, THE SAME KIND OF PUBLIC, UM, INVOLVEMENT. SO IT WOULD BE LESS DEMOCRATIC. MM-HMM . I MEAN, THIS LAW, LIKE DIRECTLY TOUCHES THE HEART OF DEMOCRATIC LAND USE PLANNING. YEAH. RIGHT. PERIOD. RIGHT. IT'S HORRIBLE. I AGREE. I HAVE A MAJOR GRIEVANCE WITH THIS. I, AND I'VE, AND I'VE LISTED THEM AFTER SEVEN 50, AND I TOTALLY AGREE. BUT I THINK THERE'S, I MEAN, THERE'S REALLY BROAD, I UNDERSTAND THE, IN THE INTENTION IS TO, YOU KNOW, GET THINGS THROUGH AND, YOU KNOW, GET DEVELOPMENT THROUGH. BUT THE LONG TERM OUTCOME, I THINK IS IN DIRECT [01:05:01] CONFLICT WITH THAT AS TO WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN TO OUR COMMUNITY. AND I DON'T WANNA CUT YOU OFF, I'LL LET YOU FINISH, BUT I'D LIKE TO, I MEAN, I HAVE SOME THINGS THAT I THINK REALLY NEED TO BE THOUGHT ABOUT. YEAH. FOR US, YOU KNOW, TO TALK ABOUT THIS. SO, I MEAN, MY BIG CONCERNS ARE A, AN A TIMELINE THAT'S WELL UNDERSTOOD, SO THAT PEOPLE CAN, WITHOUT THIS BEING AN EASY, UH, FOCAL POINT FOR THEM TO VOICE THEIR CONCERNS WITHOUT THAT, FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO VOICE THEIR CONCERNS AND THAT SOMEHOW THEY BE LISTENED TO. UM, ANOTHER THING THAT STRIKES ME IS IF WE HAD A CITY PROJECTS, CITY PROJECTS MM-HMM . CITY INITIATED PROJECTS THAT ARE GOING TO BE INITIATED BY THE CITY, REVIEWED BY THE CITY, AND APPROVED BY CITY STAFF. THAT'S JUST TOO MANY EGGS IN ONE BASKET. OH. IT'S A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST TOO. I MEAN, YOU KNOWS. YES. AND SO, I, I HOPE THERE'S SOME THOUGHT ABOUT HOW THAT COULD BE MM-HMM . DIVIDED UP. I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE OF THOSE PROJECTS THERE MIGHT BE. THERE COULD BE SOME AT WESTERN GATEWAY THOUGH. YEAH. I THINK IT'S GONNA BE ALL A WESTERN GATEWAY. 'CAUSE IT'S CITY'S, PARDON? THE CITY'S THE APPLICANT. SO I THINK IT'S ALL A WESTERN GATEWAY. WELL, WILL BE DEVELOPED BY THE CITY. FOR THE CITY. 'CAUSE THE DEVELOPERS WILL BE, YOU KNOW, THE, OUR VENDORS OF THE CITY. I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GONNA SEE. MAYBE, MAYBE NOT. I DON'T THINK THAT'S BEEN DETERMINED YET. WE, WE NEVER SAW THAT, UM, SLIP LANE PARKING LOT COME BACK THAT WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT TREES. RIGHT. I WASN'T GONNA BRING UP THE TREES ANYMORE. SMALL MM-HMM . BUT THAT WAS A BIG DEAL. MM-HMM . WE HAD A LOT OF COMMUNITY INPUT ABOUT TREES IN THAT PARKING LOT. AND WE WON'T SEE THAT AGAIN. NOW. MAYBE, MAYBE IF IT COMES IN AN, IT'S A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT, YOU'LL SEE IT'S IT AGAIN COMING BACK. OH, COOL. . I THINK I'M MOSTLY CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT'S WHAT, CAN I JUST HAVE A QUICK QUESTION? DID THE CITY TAKE A POSITION ON 2 4, 4 7? UM, I DON'T KNOW IF WE ACTUALLY LOGGED IN, IN OPPOSITION. THE SMALL CITIES WERE GENERALLY AGAINST IT. AND WHAT HAPPENS, THE LARGE CITIES IN PHOENIX WERE FOR IT. MM-HMM . UM, AND SO THE LEAGUE SUPPORTED IT. AND IT WAS ALSO JUST FROM THE GET GO, HAD BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FROM BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS. AND THE GOVERNOR SUPPORTED IT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING TOO. SO IT WAS ALMOST ONE OF THOSE BILLS THAT, I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF BILLS IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS IN ARIZONA, THEY SQUEAK BY, BY A VOTE OR TWO. MM-HMM . THIS WAS, I CAN'T REMEMBER, BUT LIKE, LIKE 10 VOTES EASY ON EACH, AND BOTH ALLEGES THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE. SO IT WAS ONE WHERE OPPOSITION WASN'T, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE A LITTLE BIT. YEAH. IT FELT THAT WAY. ANYWAY. YEAH. SHOULD I, ARE YOU, ARE YOU? YEAH. OH, OKAY. UM, SO I, I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS A LOT. I WAS TELLING COLLIE EARLIER THAT I REACHED MY AURA RING STEPS BY 9:00 AM THIS MORNING. 'CAUSE I'VE JUST BEEN PACING. I'M PRETTY UPSET ABOUT THIS. UM, HERE ARE THE ISSUES THAT I SEE WITH IT. OBVIOUSLY, LOSS OF COMMUNITY VOICE IS A HUGE ONE. UM, OUR COMMISSION OFFERS DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES AND EXPERTISE AND WISDOM, AND WE ALL LOOK AT THINGS THROUGH A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE IN A DIFFERENT LENS. LIKE COLLIE WITH TRAFFIC OR, YOU KNOW, BILL WITH ELECTRIC OR CHARLOTTE POLICY OR A DA OR, AND KATHY KNOWS ALL THE THINGS. SO . UM, BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, IT'S THAT COLLABORATIVE SPIRIT OF BEING ABLE TO TROUBLESHOOT AND BRAINSTORM THAT WE'RE GONNA REALLY BE MISSING HERE. UM, IT'S LESS ADAPTIVE PLANNING. SO WITHOUT FEEDBACK, WE MAY NOT BE REFLECTING THE LOCAL NEEDS AND VALUES, PARTICULARLY, PARTICULARLY IN SPECIFIC AREAS. SO LOCAL KNOWLEDGE IS BOOTS ON THE GROUND, RIGHT? MM-HMM . SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE LEAVING IT UP TO BASICALLY ONE PERSON, THE DIRECTOR, TO MAKE A DECISION FOR SOMEWHERE, MAYBE OVER BY THE CHAPEL AREA, WHERE YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THE ISSUES ARE UNLESS YOU HAVE COMMUNITY FEEDBACK AND UNDERSTANDING. UM, SO WE'RE GONNA BE MISSING OUT ON EDUCATING. THERE'S A LOT OF MISINFORMATION WITH THE PUBLIC AS YOU SEE IT ON NEXT DOOR. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF MISINFORMATION. SO THESE PUBLIC HEARINGS ARE SPECIFICALLY THE PLATFORM FOR US TO BE ABLE TO CLEAR UP ANY SORT OF MISINFORMATION. YOU KNOW, ED EDUCATION IS POWER. UM, IT'S GONNA LEAD TO LESS INNOVATION. UM, PUBLIC HEARINGS REGARDING DEVELOPMENT, SPARK, CREATIVITY, IDEAS, COLLABORATING, UM, TROUBLESHOOTING PROBLEMS. IT'S ALMOST LIKE A 360, YOU KNOW, REVIEW BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT THE ARCHITECT, YOU'VE GOT THE CITY STAFF, YOU'VE GOT THE COMMISSION, YOU'VE GOT THE PUBLIC. SO YOU'RE GETTING ALL OF THE PERSPECTIVES, WHICH IS GONNA BE INCREDIBLY LIMITED NOW, UM, LIMITED REVIEW. UM, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE REALLY PUTTING A LOT OF POWER. SORRY, I HAVE LIKE THE READING GLASSES AND THE LOOKING GLASSES. A SINGLE DIRECTOR MAY NOT REFLECT THE FULL RANGE OF COMMUNITY INTERESTS. AS WONDERFUL AS WE MAY THINK. THE COMMUNITY DIRECTOR IS , THAT'S A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, DECISION MAKING MADE BY ONE INDIVIDUAL. IT'S, YOU KNOW, A REAL CONCENTRATION OF POWER. UM, I THINK THAT'S PROBLEMATIC. THERE'S [01:10:01] GONNA BE REDUCED TRANSPARENCY. SO DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. THE PUBLIC ALREADY FEELS LIKE SOMETIMES THINGS ARE GOING ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THIS IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO ERODE THE TRUST OF THE PUBLIC. DEFINITELY. EVEN IF IT'S LEGAL, RIGHT? EVEN IF IT'S LEGAL, EVEN IF OUR HANDS ARE FORCED. RIGHT. EXACTLY. EXACTLY. BUT THAT'S JUST WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN. UM, AND THEN THERE'S GONNA BE THE RISK OF PERCEIVED VERSUS ACTUAL BIAS, RIGHT? MM-HMM . THIS IS ALL RUNNING THROUGH ONE DEPARTMENT AND ONE PERSON, AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, THAT, THAT'S A BIG RISK. I THINK IT WEAKENS OUR CHECKS AND BALANCES. WE'RE ALL FALLIBLE HUMAN BEINGS, AND OUR COMMISSION OFFERS A LAYER OF REVIEW THAT CAN CATCH INCONSISTENCIES OR, YOU KNOW, UN LIKE, OR UNDESIRABLE CONSEQUENCES. MM-HMM . UM, YOU KNOW, WE, WE LOOK OUT FOR EACH OTHER. WE TRY AND MAKE, YOU KNOW, THE BEST DECISIONS FOR THE MOST PEOPLE INVOLVED IN OUR COMMUNITY. AND NOW THIS IS GONNA BE FUNNELED THROUGH ONE DEPARTMENT AND ONE PERSON SIGNING OFF. VERY, VERY PROBLEMATIC. YOU KNOW, LESS SAFEGUARDS AND POTENTIAL FOR SERIOUS OVERSIGHT. UM, AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, OUR COMMUNITY, WHAT MAKES OUR COMMUNITY GREAT IS WE HAVE COLLECTIVE WISDOM, AND PEOPLE ARE REALLY ENGAGED AND ARE REALLY ACTIVE. AND, YOU KNOW, NOT EVERYBODY READS THE NEWSPAPER. AND SO IT'S JUST, I THINK IT'S GONNA BE A DISASTER FOR, YOU KNOW, THE CORE VALUES OF OUR COMMUNITY. MY OPINION IS I THINK WE SHOULD BE GLADIATORS FOR OUR FABRIC OF OUR COMMUNITY, AND I THINK WE SHOULD FIGHT BACK AGAINST STATE LEGISLATURE. SO THAT'S MY OPINION. I, I, THOSE ARE VERY GOOD POINTS. AND YOU'RE, BUT I'D LIKE TO JUST SPEAK TO, ONE OF THE ISSUES YOU TALKED ABOUT IS POWER AND CLOSED DOORS. UM, IN ALL MY CAREER OF DEALING WITH COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DIRECTORS AND PEOPLE THAT APPROVE PLANS, THEY GO BY THE RULES. UM, THEY, MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, THEY DON'T DO DEALS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. THEY'RE SOME OF THE MOST ETHICAL PEOPLE I'VE EVER MET. AND I HAVE ARGUED WITH 'EM ABOUT SOMETHING ON A BUILDING, AND THEY WILL RESPOND, BUT ROB, IT'S RIGHT HERE IN THE CODE. RIGHT? AND THAT'S WHAT THEY ENFORCE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE EXPECT PEOPLE LIKE STEVE TO ENFORCE, IS THAT CODE. UM, IT, IT, UH, SO THAT, THAT'S MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT THEY'RE VERY, THEY'RE VERY, THEY'RE NOT POWER PEOPLE. THEY REALLY ENFORCE THE CODE, AND THEY ALMOST LIVE BY THAT. YEAH. WHICH BRINGS ME TO A POINT, DOES THE CITY OF SEDONA HAVE A BOARD OF APPEALS, STEVE, FOR BUILDING AND FOR THE COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND PROJECTS, A BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT. BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT, I MEAN, FOR VARIANCES, WHICH IS THE CITY COUNCIL, THAT'S THE COUNCIL RELIEF GO RELIEF, ISN'T IT FROM NO, THEY, THEY'VE APPOINTED A BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT HEARING OFFICER, AND THEN APPEALS WOULD GO TO CITY COUNCIL. OKAY. AND THAT'S FOR ANY RELIEF FROM THE CODE IF IT WAS FOUND TO BE TOO RESTRICTIVE. OKAY. SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHERE HE AND I AGREE, I TRUST YOU. THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE, THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE, PEOPLE WOULD GO REALLY LIKE STEVE QUITE A BIT. SO IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT, IT'S JUST, IT'S THE, THE POWER, THE CONCENTRATION OF POWER THAT EVERYTHING'S GONNA BE FUNNELED THROUGH. LIKE THE DIRECTOR GETS THE FINAL SAY AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, THIS IS OUR COMMUNITY. THIS SHOULD BE A COLLABORATIVE EVENT. I MEAN, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PUBLIC HEARINGS WHERE HEARING THE PUBLIC, I'VE ACTUALLY CHANGED MY OPINION MM-HMM . AND IF NOBODY, IF WE DON'T HAVE THAT SORT OF PLATFORM FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO DISCUSS AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, INTEL INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION AND THOUGHTFUL DEBATE, YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW FROM YOUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND LIMITING OURSELVES BY NOT BEING ABLE TO, I MEAN, PEOPLE SPEAK AND I'M LIKE, OH, I HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT BEFORE. YOU KNOW, LIKE, ESPECIALLY THE POLICY STUFF, LIKE YOUR NAILS ON THAT. LIKE, THAT'S NOT USUALLY ON MY RADAR. WHEREAS I'M MORE FOCUSED ON SUSTAINABILITY, AND WE'RE GONNA LOSE THAT BECAUSE WE CAN'T EXPECT ONE PERSON OR ONE DEPARTMENT TO HAVE ALL OF THOSE DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS COMPLETELY NAILED DOWN. I, I AGREE WITH THAT. YEAH. SO IT'S, THIS IS VERY PROBLEMATIC, I THINK. MM-HMM . I THINK TAKING IN CONSIDERATION TO WHAT SARAH HAS STATED, AND, AND I'M IN AGREEMENT WITH WHAT SHE STATED IS THAT WE HAVE A LAW, YOU'RE BY REQUIREMENT CHANGING WHAT YOU NEED TO CHANGE. YEAH. BUT YOU'RE HEARING A, A REQUEST FOR THE WAY THE CITY OPERATES. YOU'RE HEARING A REQUEST FOR MORE TRANSPARENCY. MM-HMM . HOW DOES THE CITY DO THAT? UM, HOW DOES THE CITY, I UNDERSTAND WHY WE SAY THE COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR, BECAUSE HE'S THE ULTIMATE PERSON IN CHARGE OF SIGNING OFF AND I APPROVING THINGS. SO I GET THAT. BUT I DO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S PEOPLE LIKE CARRIE AND OTHER FOLKS THAT DO THE WHOLE WORK, HAND IT TO THE, THE, THE HEAD AND SAY, OKAY, IT'S DONE. HERE'S MY SUMMARY. SO I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT I THINK THIS, THESE, THESE COMMENTS THAT ARE COMING THROUGH, CARRIE AND STEVE, THEY ARE REALLY BENT TO BE LIKE, WHAT PO WHAT CAN WE CHANGE IN THE CITY? [01:15:01] AND I KNOW CITY STONE DOESN'T LIKE TO CHANGE THE WAY THAT THEY DO BUSINESS, BUT MAYBE THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE SOMETHING THAT WE DO, HOW WE DO BUSINESS. AND, AND WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE? YES. IT'S NOT REVISING THIS, BUT IT BECOMES AN INTERNAL POLICY. AND THE BEAUTIFUL THING ABOUT INTERNAL POLICIES IS IT DOESN'T GO TO A PUBLIC GROUP TO REVISE. IT'S INTERNAL, AND IT WORKS WITH CITY EXECUTIVE STAFF TO, TO HEAR THESE COMMENTS. THE CITY RIGHT NOW LOOKS AS, WITH ALL THE THINGS GOING ON IN THE PAPER NOT RELATED TO THIS COMMISSION AT THE MOMENT, IT PROBABLY WILL SOON BECAUSE OF THIS LAW THAT WE'RE NOT IN CONTROL OF, WE'RE GONNA ADD TO THE MORE DRAMA THAT THIS CITY IS ALREADY SHOWING REGARDING CLOSED DOORS. SO WE'RE JUST GONNA PERPETUATE. SO HOW TO DO THAT, HOW TO CHANGE POLICY TO HAVE MORE OPEN COMMUNICATION. I, I DO REALLY LIKE THE IDEA OF EXPANDING THE NOTIFICATION DISTANCE. YES. MM-HMM . UM, AND THERE IS AN ABILITY FOR THINGS THAT ARE CONSIDERED CITYWIDE PROJECTS. I DUNNO HOW YOU DEFINE THAT, BUT, UH, TO DO CITYWIDE NOTIFICATIONS AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S EXPENSIVE. YOU DON'T WANNA DO THAT FOR EVERY PROJECT, BUT, UM, SOMETHING ON THE WAY, IF AT LEAST, RIGHT? YEAH. EVERYBODY IS NOT TUNED IN ELECTRONICALLY. EVERYBODY DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO A, UH, SOME WEBSITE AND, AND INPUT COMMENTS ON THAT. AND IT'S JUST NOT, YOU KNOW, OUR DEMOGRAPHICS DON'T, DON'T LEND THEMSELVES TO THAT AS MUCH. BUT, UM, YEAH, I WOULD AGREE. WE REALLY HAVE TO GET THE WORD OUT, EXPANDING THE NOTIFICATION, BECAUSE WHAT MAJOR AMENDMENTS TO THE COMMUNITY PLAN REQUIRE A COMMUNITY WIDE MAILING. AND SO, AND IT'S GONNA BE SO MUCH MORE PRESSURE FOR YOU GUYS, RIGHT? BECAUSE YOU GUYS ARE JUST GONNA BE DEALING WITH ALL THE AGGRIEVED PEOPLE, RIGHT. AS OPPOSED TO LIKE BEING ABLE TO LIKE OR FOR US TO DIFFUSE OR, YOU KNOW, ABSORB SOME OF THAT ENERGY DAY. YEAH. RIGHT? SO NOW THEY, I MEAN, YOU GUYS, IT'S GONNA BE TO ADD ON TO THE 500 FEET. HOW DOES THE COMMISSION FEEL ABOUT ANY CITY RUN, CITY LED PROJECTS BEING CITYWIDE NOTIFICATION. THAT'S GREAT. SO IF THE APPLICANT IS THE CITY, THEN IT'S, I KNOW THAT'S NOT PROBABLY ANYONE'S FAVORITE, BUT I, ONE THING MY EXPERIENCE UP HERE HAS BEEN IS CITY PROJECTS ARE REALLY HARD TO SEE FOR US. LIKE, IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT MM-HMM . WE'VE BEEN TOLD REPEATEDLY, LIKE, TREAT US LIKE A DEVELOPER. AND IT'S LIKE, WE TRY SO HARD, BUT IT'S LIKE JUST A DIFFERENT THING. RIGHT? AND SO I, I THINK THAT IT'D BE REASONABLE TO CHANGE NOTIFICATION FOR CITY PROJECTS. YEAH, I WOULD AGREE. AND I, I WOULD AGREE WITH CHARLOTTE'S SUGGESTION THAT MAYBE THE DIRECTOR HAS SOME DISCRETION WITH THE COMPLEXITY OF THE PROJECT THAT'S COMING TO YOU FOR DEVELOPMENT REVIEW. YOU COULD MAKE A DECISION ABOUT EXPANDED NOTIFICATION. SO WHEN WE HAVE DONE THAT IN THE PAST, OUR PREVIOUS CITY ATTORNEYS HAVE SAID THAT IF THE CODE SAYS, YOU KNOW, 300, THAT THAT'S, UNLESS THERE'S CERTAIN CRITERIA, IT SHOULD NOT BE UP TO A DIRECTOR TO EXPAND THAT, BECAUSE THAT COULD BE SEEN AS PICKING ON, BUT IS IT TRUE IT'S BEEN DISCRETIONARY TO EXPAND IT BEYOND 300 WHEN YOU WANTED THE ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD TO KNOW? I KNOW THAT WAS TRUE WITH THE SHUTTLE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD. UM, THAT WAS, I MEAN, AND THAT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF THE CITY BEING THE APPLICANT AND THE CITY BEING WILLING TO DO THAT. MM-HMM . IN OTHER CASES WHERE, YOU KNOW, AND FOR LIKE THE VILLAGE AT SADDLE ROCK, THE APPLICANT WAS WILLING TO NOTIFY THE ENTIRE SADDLE ROCK SUBDIVISION. RIGHT. BUT THAT HAS TO BE A SUGGESTION AND NOT A REQUIREMENT. WELL, MAYBE BECAUSE IT ENDS UP BEING A COST TO THE DEVELOPER, WE NEED TO LOOK AT SOME COST SHARING BURDEN BETWEEN THE CITY AND THE DEVELOPER IF WE WANT TO EXPAND THE REACH, BECAUSE THEY DO, THEY PAY FOR THE LABELS, RIGHT? RIGHT. MM-HMM . THEY PAY FOR THE MAILING. I AGREE WITH CALLIE. I THINK THAT ANY CITY LED AS A CITY IS APPLICANT. IT SHOULD BE A CITYWIDE NOTICE. AND THERE WOULD BE THE, UH, IF CITY ATTORNEYS SAY YOU CAN'T JUST ARBITRARILY CHOOSE AND PICK ON SOMEBODY UNLESS IT'S, UH, YOU KNOW, SPECIFIC. I THINK CITY APPLICANT IS FAIR. YEAH. IT'S FINE TO HAVE A DIFFERENT STANDARD FOR THE CITY THAN, THAN OTHER DEVELOPERS. I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DON'T WANNA, WELL, IF A BC DEVELOPER COMES IN, HE'S 300 FEET, AND THEN IF X, Y, Z COME IN, SHE'S, YOU KNOW, 600 FEET. I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT I ALSO FEEL THAT 300 FEET'S NOT ENOUGH. AND, AND YOU KNOW, WHAT REALLY STANDS OUT TO ME, TO BE QUITE HONEST, IS, UH, CONTROVERSIAL. MM-HMM . IS SAFE PLACE TO PARK BECAUSE THE 300 FEET WERE TREES. BUT ALL THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS WERE SO ANGRY AND SO UPSET, BUT THEY WEREN'T NOTIFIED BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T WITHIN THAT 300 FEET. AND I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT THAT AS A, A SUBDIVISION COMES IN LIKE, YOU KNOW, HERE THAT, THAT GREEN SPACE, BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW. THE ZONING DOESN'T REALIZE THAT IT'S, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE SUBDIVISION AND THEY HAVE NO OPPORTUNITY. SO I, I THINK THAT UNFORTUNATELY THE 300 FEET WITH TREES IS, IS PRETTY MUCH WHY I [01:20:01] DON'T THINK IT'S ENOUGH. AND, AND I DID SPEND TIME ON THIS. I RESEARCHED IT, I ASKED AROUND, AND, AND THAT WAS THE BIGGEST SUGGESTION I RECEIVED WAS AT LEAST 500 FEET NOTIFICATION. YEAH. THAT'S THE BARE MINIMUM. WHAT DO YOU THINK, CARRIE ? UM, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, JUST KEEPING IN, SO 300 FEET'S BEEN THE STANDARD FOR, UM, 500 FEET WILL MORE THAN DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE NOTIFIED BECAUSE CIRCLES GET EXPONENTIALLY BIGGER. MM-HMM . UM, I KNOW THE LAST FEW TIMES WE'VE DONE CITYWIDE MAILINGS, IT'S ABOUT FOUR TO $5,000 FOR A SINGLE MAILING. UM, SO THAT'S, THERE'S A COST CONSIDERATION FOR THAT. UM, BUT THERE'S A SMALL PRICE. THERE'S A COST TO THIS. YEAH. THERE IS A COST TO, TO THIS. UM, YEAH. BUT I MEAN, AS LONG AS KURT DOESN'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH EXPANDING NOTIFICATION RADIUS, WE'LL GO WITH WHATEVER THE COMMISSION. COULD WE REALLY, NOT THIS LIKE, COULD WE REALLY NOT FIGHT THIS? COULD WE BE THE FIRST CITY TO STAND UP AND BE LIKE, UHUH, LIKE, AND, AND PUSH BACK ? WE CAN, WELL, THIS OUR, THIS GOES TO COUNCIL NEXT. OKAY. . THAT'LL BE THEIR DECISION. SO THE GOVERNOR SIGNED IT BACK. SO THE GOVERNOR SIGNED IT. SO IT'S KIND OF THE SAME CONCEPT AS IF THEY WANTED TO RESCIND IT. IT HAS TO, HAS TO BE RESCINDED AND REVISED WITHIN THAT, WITHIN THE LEGISLATURE. JUST THINK OF SB 1350 THAT WAS SUPERIMPOSED ON THE, ALL OF THE CITIES AND TOWNS. YEAH. SO IT HAS TO COME FROM THE LEGISLATURE FOR CLEANUP. RIGHT. AND HOW SUCCESSFUL WE'VE BEEN IN FIGHTING THAT BACK. WELL, WE HAVE TO KEEP DOING IT. YEAH. YEAH. WITH IT'S STRONG. IT'S THE SAME, IT'S THE SAME SITUATION APPLIED TO EVERY CITY IN TOWN AS THOUGH THEY WERE ALL ALIKE, BUT THEY AREN'T. EXACTLY. IT'S LIKE GIVING ONE MEDICATION, RIGHT. THE SAME MEDICATION TO EVERYBODY WHEN EVERYBODY'S ORGANICALLY DIFFERENT AND HAS DIFFERENT GENETICS. MM-HMM . IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. AND IT'S ALL ABOUT, 'CAUSE THE LONGER IT TAKES FOR A DEVELOPER TO GET A PRO A PROJECT THROUGH, THE MORE MONEY THEY SPEND, THE MORE INTEREST THEY PAY. AND THEY NEED THESE PROJECTS TO KEEP MOVING. AND THEY'RE, AND THEY'RE STOPPED BECAUSE OF PUBLIC INPUT. SO THAT'S WHY IT'S THERE. AND I RECOGNIZE THE MAJORITY. WERE ALL FOR IT. WE HAD ALL THE VOTES AND THIS AND THAT, BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF NEGOTIATION WITH THIS GOVERNOR TO GET WHAT SHE NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO RUN OUR STATE. AND SO FOR HER, THIS MAY HAVE BEEN, UH, AN EASY THING TO CONCEDE ON SO SHE CAN HAVE A DIRECTOR. RIGHT. 'CAUSE THE LEGISLATURE'S NOT LETTING HER APPOINT PEOPLE. SO THERE'S STUFF THAT SHE'S HAD TO DO. WELL, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, GO COMMISSION IF WE HAVE ONE PERSON THAT'S BEEN WAITING FOR THE PUBLIC HEAR OR THE PUBLIC HEARING PORTION OF THIS ITEM TO OPEN. SO IF YOU DON'T MIND, I I'D LIKE TO NO, GO AHEAD. DO THAT NOW. SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO WAIT ANY LONGER. IS THAT OKAY? ALRIGHT. PUBLIC HEARING IS OPENING AND I'M CALLING ON TIM PERRY, WHO'S THE ONLY PERSON THAT HAS SIGNED UP TO SPEAK. PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND CITY OF RESIDENCE AND YOU HAVE THREE MINUTES. GOOD EVENING COMMISSIONERS. MY, MY NAME IS TIM PERRY. I LIVE IN SEDONA. THERE'S A FEW THINGS ABOUT, UH, THIS PROPOSAL TONIGHT THAT I THINK NEED TO BE PUT ON THE RECORD. AND THE FIRST IS JUST TO NOTE THAT RESIDENTS HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR LDC CHANGES AND CODE CHANGES FOR QUITE A WHILE. AND FOR BIG CHANGES FOR LARGE CUTS TO THE LDC FOR THINGS LIKE SLASHING OUT THE INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODES OR FOR THINGS LIKE PRE-APPROVED PLANS. BUT INSTEAD, STAFF HAS JUST BROUGHT BACK HOUSEKEEPING CHANGES. NOW THEY SAY THERE'LL BE MORE CODE UPDATES DOWN THE ROAD, BUT WE'VE BEEN HEARING THAT FOR YEARS AS WELL. AND IT'S STILL JUST LITTLE STUFF. NOW, PART OF THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS CHANGE RIGHT NOW IS BEING GIVEN AS THE NEED TO BRING CITY CODE INTO COMPLIANCE WITH HB 2 4, 4 7. BUT THAT'S JUST KIND OF FUNNY BECAUSE STAFF SO FAR HAS BEEN COMPLETELY RELUCTANT TO BRING, UH, CITY CODE INTO COMPLIANCE WITH, UH, LAST YEAR'S HB 27 20. YOU KNOW, THE ONE THAT, UH, CUTS, UH, WHAT IS IT? OH, YES. SETBACKS FOR ADUS DOWN TO FIVE FEET AND OTHER THINGS THAT ONE APPARENTLY DOESN'T NEED TO BE IMPLEMENTED. AND I KNOW THAT, UH, KURT THINKS THE LAW SAYS SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN IT ACTUALLY SAYS. BUT IN DUE COURSE, THE CITY WILL GET SUED AND IT WILL EITHER LOSE OR IT WILL BE FORCED TO MAKE A HUMILIATING SETTLEMENT BECAUSE OF THIS INCONSISTENT IMPLEMENTATION. AND THAT'S, INCIDENTALLY ALSO WHAT WE HAVE WITH THIS HERE IS AN INCONSISTENT IMPLEMENTATION. BECAUSE THIS PROPOSAL IS NOT A FULL IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROVISIONS OF HB 2, 4, 4 7 AT THE VERY END OF YOUR PACKETS WHERE THE BILL IS INCLUDED, THERE IS A LARGE CHUNK OF TEXT IN THE LAW ITSELF, WHICH SAYS THAT THE CITY MAY APPROVE A SELF-CERTIFICATION PROGRAM FOR LICENSED ARCHITECTS AND ENGINEERS. WHERE'S THAT? THAT'S [01:25:01] NOT IN ANY OF THE PROVISIONS OF THE PROPOSAL THAT'S BEING BROUGHT FORWARD TONIGHT. NOW, OF COURSE, STAFF WILL SAY, WELL, THE LANGUAGE OF THE BILL SAYS THE CITY MAY DO THIS. YES, THAT'S CORRECT. BUT WE HEAR FROM STAFF IN THE CITY ALL THE TIME HOW IMPORTANT HOUSING IS IN THIS COMMUNITY, HOW IMPORTANT HOUSING IS TO THEM. SURELY A CITY THAT, UH, WANTED TO ENCOURAGE HOUSING DEVELOPMENT WOULD TRY TO SPEED THE PROCESS BY INTRODUCING SELF-CERTIFICATION. IF THIS COMMISSION IS GENUINELY INTERESTED IN IMPLEMENTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE IN PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT THE PUBLIC HAS TO SAY, AND OF KEEPING THE PUBLIC INTEREST IN MIND, THE COMMISSION WILL SEND THE PROPOSAL BACK TO STAFF TO BRING IT BACK TO THEM WITH A 2, 4, 4 7 COMPLIANT PROPOSAL THAT INCLUDES ROOM FOR SELF-CERTIFICATION. THANK YOU. I'LL CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING PORTION AND BRING IT BACK TO THE COMMISSION FOR CONTINUED COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS. A LOT . WELL, I, I THINK THE WHOLE THING IS TOTALLY UNDEMOCRATIC. I THINK THAT, UH, WE ARE, UH, GOING IN EXACTLY THE WRONG DIRECTION. UH, AND I CAN'T BLAME THE CITY FOR THAT. AND I CAN'T BLAME KURT FOR THAT. UH, AND I CAN'T BLAME ANYONE HERE FOR THAT, QUITE FRANKLY. I THINK, UH, THE STATE IS GOING IN, UM, UM, THE SAME DIRECTION THAT OUR COUNTRY IS GOING RIGHT NOW. AND, UH, I, WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT THE BEST WE CAN. HOPEFULLY SOMEDAY WE'LL GO BACK TO WHEN, UH, SEDONA WAS GREAT. UM, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS HANDOUT FROM THE ROSE LAW GROUP REPORTER CAME FROM. THANK YOU, CHARLOTTE. LET'S TALK ABOUT, UH, DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS. MM-HMM . HOW DOES THIS KURT AND OR KERRY AFFECT EITHER CURRENT DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS OR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS? I KNOW THERE, THAT'S LIKE A COUNCIL THING, BUT LIKE WE WOULD SEE PROJECTS THAT HAD THEM ALREADY. HOW DOES, HOW DOES THIS AFFECT THAT? DO WE KNOW YET? I THINK DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS, THE ONES THAT I'M THINKING OF ARE GENERALLY BECAUSE THERE'S A ZONE CHANGE INVOLVED MM-HMM . AND SO THERE'S THINGS WE NEED TO CHANGE. SO AGAIN, ZONE CHANGES AREN'T AFFECTED BY THIS BILL, OR THEY ARE ASKING FOR WAIVERS OF SPECIFIC DEVELOPMENT, UM, LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE REQUIREMENTS MM-HMM . WHICH WOULD NOT FALL UNDER THE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS. AND SO THOSE WOULD LIKELY, IF THEY WERE ASKING FOR EXCEPTIONS STILL. RIGHT. THAT'S MY QUESTION IS LIKE, HOW DO YOU ASK FOR THAT IF YOU CAN'T MEET ABOUT IT? FOR EXAMPLE, SHELBY. MM-HMM . ANY, ANY DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT LIKE, UH, YEAH, SHELBY'S A GREAT ONE. OR LIKE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME PARKING HEIGHT MINOR THINGS THAT COME UP THAT AREN'T RELATED TO ZONE CHANGE THAT WE DON'T, WE DON'T DO DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS. I KNOW THAT, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU EVEN MEET TO HAVE ONE IF YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO MEET. YOU HAVE ONE. SO CHAIR AND COMMISSIONERS, YOU CAN STILL MEET ON DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS AND P AND Z AND COUNCIL HAS, UM, ALWAYS WANTED P Z'S INPUT ON DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS, UM, GENERALLY AND AFTER THE FACT , WELL, IT WAS USUALLY BEFORE. AND WE'VE, WE'VE TRIED IT TO, YOU KNOW, STREAMLINE IT AND GET IT IN BEFOREHAND COUNCIL, AND THEY SAID, NO, WE WANNA KNOW WHAT P AND Z THINKS ABOUT THIS. AND THEY'VE REJECTED A FEW UNTIL THEY HAD P AND Z INPUT. AND, UH, AND SO THAT'S, IT'S REALLY, THAT'S COMPLETELY SEPARATE. SO THEY'RE, YEAH. GENERALLY THEY'RE ASKING A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT IS, UM, YOU KNOW, NEGOTIATION BETWEEN A PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT IN THE CITY. YOU DON'T THINK THAT THIS LAW IS LIKE, YOU CAN'T DO DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENTS? NO, IT DOESN'T PROHIBIT THAT. UH, BUT WHO WOULD DO THEM? WHAT, WHO WOULD DO THEM? SO IT'S STILL COUNCIL'S GONNA, UH, APPROVE THEM AND COUNCIL STILL WANTS, UH, P AND Z'S INPUT ON IT. SO A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN DEVELOPMENT REVIEW. THEY'RE JUST NOT THE SAME. DON'T THEY HAVE TO PRESENT THE ENTIRE PROJECT TO US TO GET A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT? AND THEN WHAT DO WE JUST NOT TALK ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THE, LIKE, THE DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT TERMS. SO YEAH, IT'D BE A LITTLE MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN GENERAL. SO YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT ON THAT COMMISSIONER. WE GENERALLY BRING THE DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT WHEN IT COMES IN WITH SOMETHING ELSE FOR P AND Z TO REVIEW. RIGHT. SO THAT OTHER PART OF REVIEW MIGHT BE MISSING. SO HYPOTHETICALLY, YEAH, I, WE COULD HAVE AN AGREEMENT IN FRONT OF US, BUT WITH NO PROJECT, THE PROJECT'S ALREADY BEEN REVIEWED ONLY BY STAFF. CORRECT. IN DEVELOPMENT REVIEW, THAT'S WHAT COULD COME. YEAH. SO, SO I GUESS IT WOULD DEPEND. I MEAN, I GUESS THE ANSWER IS IN MY MIND, IT DEPENDS IF THEY'RE ASKING IF IT'S, IS SOMETHING THAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR A CODE EXCEPTION IN ORDER LIKE SHELBY, WHERE THEY WERE ASKING FOR ADDITIONAL HEIGHT, THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WE COULD APPROVE WITHOUT THAT DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT. SO YOU WOULD SEE IT AND POTENTIALLY GET TO YOUR COUNCIL WOULD SEE IT AND WEIGH IN BEFORE THERE WOULD BE ANY KIND OF APPROVAL. BECAUSE WITHOUT THAT DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT AUTHORIZING AT HOLLER HEIGHT, WE COULDN'T APPROVE IT. ARE WE WORRIED ABOUT TIMELINES SET BY THIS LAW WHEN IN THAT [01:30:01] SCENARIO THERE'S NO TIMELINE SET BY THIS. OKAY. I'VE MISREAD SOMETHING. THEN THERE THERE ARE GENERAL REVIEW TIMELINES THAT, THAT WE ALREADY COMPLY WITH, BUT, AND SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHERE THEY'RE ASKING FOR A WAIVER AND IF THEY WERE PUSH A TIMELINE, THEN THE ANSWER IS DENIED. UM, RIGHT. OKAY. SO, UM, YEAH. SO I GOT CONFUSED LIKE CHICKEN EGG DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT IN MY BRAIN. THIS IS CONFUSING. IT'S VERY CONFUSING. I DON'T, WE HAVE NO POWER YET. WE STILL, I DON'T, I DON'T, I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE NUANCE OF THIS WILL PLAY OUT, I DON'T THINK UNTIL WE, OTHER THAN IN MY HEAD, IT'S LIKE ZONE CHANGES AND, AND USE PERMITS. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GONNA SEE PER, UH, SO IS IT APPROPRIATE TO ASK IF, UH, STAFF HAS STARTED TO MEET, TO DISCUSS IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS? YES. WE, WE'VE DISCUSSED IT. AND IF SO, WHO, WHO'S ON THAT TEAM? YOU HAVE STARTED MEETING? THIS IS THE, THIS IS THE TEAM . OKAY. SO, YEAH. SO WHEN WE WERE DRAFTING THIS, WE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY WE KNEW WE HAD TO TAKE OUT THE PUBLIC HEARING, BUT WE LEFT IN AS MUCH OF THE OTHER STUFF AS WE COULD. SO THAT WAS KIND OF THE FIRST STEP. AND YEAH, I'M SURE THERE'LL BE THINGS THAT WE'LL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT AS WE GO AND, BUT WE TRIED TO YEAH. LEAVE IT, YOU KNOW, LEAVE ALL OF THE PUBLIC INPUT, LEAVE ALL OF THE PUBLIC NOTIFICATION, UM, AS YEAH. AS MUCH AS THAT'S WHAT, YEAH, HALF THE EGG. I MEAN, THIS IS HORRIBLE. ALLOW, ALLOW APPLICANTS WITH A HISTORY OF COMPLIANCE WITH BUILDING CODES AND REGULATIONS TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR EXPEDITED PERMIT REVIEW. SO I MAY BE SUBMITTING SOMETHING THAT MEETS CODE REGULATIONS, BUT IF I DON'T HAVE A HISTORY OF DOING IT, I GET DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND JUMPED IN LINE BY PEOPLE THAT LIKE, ARE BIGGER CONGLOMERATIONS AND IT'S HORRIBLE. ARE YOU SETTING STANDARDS FOR THAT? SO, NO, WE HAVE, WE HAVE, I DON'T BELIEVE STAFF SUPPORTS IMP IMPLEMENTING THAT. YEAH. UM, AND SINCE IT WAS A MAY, UM, WE ARE NOT PROPOSING THAT THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF A STATEWIDE LAW. YEAH. AND I, I, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, THE GENESIS OF THIS WAS TO ENCOURAGE, UM, MORE HOUSING DEVELOPMENT MM-HMM . FOR US, IT'S NOT SO MUCH SUBDIVISIONS. WE'RE NOT PHOENIX. YEAH. RIGHT. YOU KNOW, BUT NEW PEOPLE, YOUNGER PEOPLE, INNOVATIVE, INNOVATIVE PEOPLE THAT HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME THAT ARE BREAKING INTO THE MARKET AND RIGHT, RIGHT. YOU KNOW, IT'S RIGHT. SO, I MEAN, THIS WOULD BE FOR PULTE HOMES WHO HAS A GOOD, OR FOR EXAMPLE, AND MAYBE THEY'RE NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE. SO, SO I WAS WONDERING IF WE COULD, CAN WE, CAN WE VOTE OR DO WE RECOMMEND, HOW DO WE GET THIS RADIUS CHANGED? 'CAUSE WE KEEP GOING OFF IT AND COMING BACK, SO I DON'T WANNA FORGET IT. WE, WELL, WE RECOMMEND A COUNCIL TO CHANGE IT. RIGHT. THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT THIS WHOLE IS. WE HAVE A, THERE'S A DRAFT MOTION AND WE CAN INCLUDE ALL OF THE, BY REFERENCE ALL OF THE SUGGESTIONS THAT WILL COME UP TONIGHT. DO WE WANNA DO 500 OR 600? 'CAUSE SHE'S SAYING GOING FROM THREE TO FIVE WOULD PROBABLY DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF, OF REACH. BUT IF WE GO 600, THAT WOULD DEFINITELY DOUBLE. IS THAT IN THE STATUTE? NO, NO, NO. 300 FEET. THE MINIMUM IS IN THE STATUTE IN A COUPLE OF PLACES IN STATE LAW. YEAH. UM, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S, I THINK IT'S LIKE THE BARE MINIMUM. THE MINIMUM. SO I THINK WE CAN GO A ABOVE THAT, BUT I WILL HAVE REVIEW IT ALL IF AND, AND MAKE SURE THAT BEFORE WE GET TO COUNCIL MEETING. RIGHT. I ALSO THINK KNOWING THAT COST, THE APPROXIMATE COST CHANGE WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR COUNCIL. I WOULD WANT TO KNOW IT IF I WAS THEM. YOU KNOW, IT COSTS $5,000 TODAY. IF WE INCREASE THE 500, IT'LL BE EIGHT. YOU KNOW, LIKE ISH OF THAT. RIGHT. I MEAN THE CITY CURRENTLY AND WHETHER THE CITY CAN PARTICIPATE IN UNDERWRITING ANY OF THAT INCREASED COST IN ORDER TO PROVIDE ADEQUATE NOTIFICATION. DIDN'T NOTICE COSTS ARE INCLUDED. YEAH. CITY PROJECT. I'M TALKING ABOUT NON-CITY. OH. SO RIGHT NOW THE APPLICANT IS RESPON FOR THEIR CITIZEN PARTICIPATION. THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE MAILINGS. THE CITY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RIGHT, THE MAILINGS, AND THAT IS PART OF THE FEES THAT ARE PAID. RIGHT. I JUST THINK IT'D BE NICE TO KNOW FOR A DEVELOPER COST, WE JUST CHANGED A BUNCH OF CODES THAT MADE DEVELOPERS MM-HMM . EVERYTHING MORE EXPENSIVE. THAT'S CORRECT. AND SO JUST KNOWING THE BURDEN, LIKE I'M NOT, I'M NOT DISAGREEING THAT WE SHOULDN'T MM-HMM . EXPAND. NO. YOU JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THERE'S ENOUGH INFORMATION SO A DECISION CAN BE MADE INSTEAD OF JUST LEAVING IT AT 300 FEET. SO MAYBE WE THINK THAT'S FAIR, MAYBE WE DON'T CHANGE THAT. SUGGEST, WELL, WE'VE MADE A RECOMMENDATION SUGGEST AND SUGGEST THE RESEARCH IS DONE ON THAT. MM-HMM . YEAH. RECOMMEND AN EXPANSION, IF NOT FINANCIALLY BURDENSOME. MM-HMM . GOOD. WELL, BUT I'M OKAY WITH THE FINANCIAL BURDEN. I MEAN, MAYBE THEN THEY'LL HAVE A GRIEVANCE WITH THIS HB 2, 4, 4 7. BECAUSE I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THE MORE PEOPLE IN OUR PUBLIC THAT KNOW, NO, I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS. WELL, NATURAL CONSEQUENCE TO EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW, IT'S MORE JUST KNOWLEDGE. I, I HOPE THAT COUNCIL CHOOSES TO EXPAND. YEAH. THE RADIUS MM-HMM [01:35:01] . SO GOING FROM A 300 FOOT RADIUS TO A 600 FOOT RADIUS MINIMUM. MM-HMM . WOULD, UM, INCREASE THE AREA THAT'S COVERED BY THAT RADIUS BY ABOUT FOUR TIMES. MM-HMM . SO OBVIOUSLY THE NUMBER OF MAILINGS THAT YOU WOULD DO MM-HMM . WOULD DEPEND ON THE DENSITY SIZES OF PROPERTY AND THAT SORT OF THING. BUT OKAY. THE TOTAL SQUARE FOOTAGE COVERED, UM, WITH A 300 FOOT RADIUS, YOU'RE AT 70,000 SQUARE FEET AND YOU'RE ABOUT 280,000 SQUARE FEET WITH A 600 FOOT RADIUS. STILL NOT EVEN THAT MUCH. I APPRECIATE YOUR MATH. I KNOW. THANK YOU. AND THEN CAN WE MAKE SURE THAT THE RECOMMENDATION THAT CITY FUNDED PROJECTS ARE NOTIFIED AS CITIES, THE APPLICANT CITY ARE CITYWIDE NOTIFIED? YEAH. BECAUSE IF NOT THE PARKING GARAGE WOULD BE BUILT OH, BECAUSE OF THE FEEDBACK WE GOT. IT WOULD JUST BE BUILT. THE PARKING GARAGE WOULD'VE JUST BEEN BUILT. OH, YOU MEAN LIKE THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ANY CHANGES 'CAUSE WE WENT NO. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. RIGHT. AND THE THING IS, IS WHAT, WHAT'S SUPER UNFORTUNATE IS THE, I DON'T, I WANNA CALL YOU A VICTIM, BUT I'M GOING TO, THE VICTIMS ARE THE STAFF. BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE A CITY SPONSORED PROJECT AND THE CITY STAFFERS REALLY DON'T LIKE IT AND THEY CAN'T GIVE FEEDBACK, BECAUSE LET'S SAY THE BOSS ISN'T THE NICEST PERSON, THEY'RE GONNA JUST GO THROUGH THE PROCESS. AND THERE'S THIS BOARD, THIS GOVERNING GROUP ALLOWS TO ALSO DIMINISH ANY KIND OF STAFF CONFLICT BECAUSE THERE'S PRESSURE. THERE'LL BE PRESSURE FROM THE CITY TO WHOEVER APPROVES IT TO DO IT CORRECTLY AND GET IT DONE. AND DON'T GIVE US FEEDBACK AND THIS IS WHAT WE NEED. SO, UH, I DON'T THINK THAT'S ALWAYS THE CASE. IT JUST DEPENDS WHO THE LEADER IS, RIGHT. WHO THE DIRECTOR IS OR WHO'S WHOSE PROJECT IT IS THAT'S TRYING TO GO THROUGH. AND SO, AGAIN, I'M GONNA GO BACK AND SAY THERE REALLY NEEDS TO BE SOME REALLY HARD LOOK AT POLICY AND HOW WE'RE HELPING TO GUIDE OUR EMPLOYEES SO THEY DON'T FEEL UNNECESSARY PRESSURE, UNNECESSARY BURDEN BECAUSE OF LEADERSHIP. THAT'S JUST BEING DIFFICULT. AND, AND HOW DO WE PROTECT OUR EMPLOYEES? BECAUSE GUESS WHAT WE NEED HERE? EMPLOYEES. AND IF THEY LEAVE BECAUSE IT'S, IT'S, IT'S ICKY, IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE. THEY FEEL PRESSURED ALL THE TIME, THEN WHAT DO WE HAVE? AND SO THERE'S, THERE'S A HUMAN COST HERE. AND AGAIN, I WOULD REITERATE, GET THOSE POLICIES OUT JUST NOT ONLY FOR THE PUBLIC, BUT FOR THE DEPARTMENTS. CAN I ASK A QUESTION ABOUT, UM, JUST ON THE, I GUESS IT WOULD BE FOR A KURT QUESTION. IF THE STATE WERE TO CHANGE IN THE FUTURE, THEY WERE TO GO BACK AND SAY, UM, THEY DON'T LIKE THIS IDEA. AND UH, BASICALLY WOULD ALLOW US RESEND IT YEAH. TO RESCIND IT. BUT WE'VE CHANGED ALL OUR LANGUAGE. YEAH. COULD LANGUAGE BE PUT IN TO SOMEWHERE WITHIN ALL OF THIS THAT SAYS, SHOULD THE STATE REVERT OR, YOU KNOW, GO BACK AND, AND ALLOW US TO GO HAVE, UH, THE COMMISSION FOR INSTANCE, REVIEW THESE VARIOUS THINGS THAT IT WOULD AUTOMATICALLY REVERT BACK TO THE OLD LANGUAGE? UH, YES. WE COULD PUT IN SOME AUTOMATIC REVERSE. I WOULD LIKE THAT IN THERE. OKAY. , WE COULD PUT LOVE OPTIONS COULD PUT THAT. WHAT WE COULD DO IS I COULD PROBABLY JUST, IF THEY COME TO THEIR SENSE, WELL IT'S, IT WOULDN'T BE THE FIRST TIME. I COULD PROBABLY PUT IT IN THE ORDINANCE ITSELF LANGUAGE, SO IT WOULDN'T, IT WOULDN'T SHOW UP IN THE LDC. BUT YEAH, THIS ORDINANCE AFFECTING ALL THESE CHANGES. I DON'T KNOW IF WE WANT IT TO AFFECT ALL THE SECTIONS THOUGH, BUT MAYBE A FEW OR THE SECTIONS AFFECTED DIRECTLY BY HP 24 47 WOULD BE GOOD. THE UN UNDEMOCRATIC SECTIONS. , I'M WITH YOU. SO I'LL GET ON MY SOAPBOX. I BUMMED ABOUT ALL OF THIS. UM, I WILL SPEAK TO YOU ABOUT THE DIRECTORS BEING ETHICAL AND NOT, I'VE WORKED IN MY PERSONAL PROJECTS. I'VE WORKED WITH THREE COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DIRECTORS AND I'VE WORKED WITH CARRIE. THEY ARE BY THE BOOK PEOPLE. BUT IN MY THREE DEVELOPMENT DIRECTORS, THERE HAVE BEEN A VERY, THERE HAVE BEEN NOTICEABLE STANDARD DIFFERENCES THAT YOU COULD OR COULD. THERE WERE DIFFERENCE OF OPINIONS. 'CAUSE THEY'RE HUMAN, RIGHT. THESE ARE HUMANS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. CODE IS CLEAR UNTIL YOU HAVE A PERSPECTIVE. LIKE, I THINK THAT'S MY BIGGEST GRIEVANCE IS LIKE THE POWER ON ONE PERSON AND THAT ONE PERSON BEING HUMAN. AND SO, YEAH, I LOVE TO THINK THAT EVERY DIRECTOR IS GOING TO BE THE MOST ETHICAL, CLEAR-MINDED, GREAT PERSON THAT STEVE IS. BUT I, I JUST, I CAN'T LIVE IN THAT WORLD. UM, SO I'M I'M WITH YOU IN THAT POWERPOINT. IT'S JUST LIKE, THERE'S NO ACCOUNTABILITY THERE. YEAH. UM, SO, YOU KNOW, FOR THE RECORD, I DON'T LIKE IT EITHER. , IF THAT IS UNCLEAR, UM, I WOULD LIKE SOME CLARIFICATION ON THE CO THE PUBLIC COMMENT OF WHAT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT SELF-CERTIFICATION IS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS. UM, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR INTENTION OF THAT, BUT COULD YOU, COULD YOU TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS? [01:40:02] IT'S SOMETHING THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, WE COULD, UH, CREATE, BUT, UH, IT CRITERIA FOR, UH, BUT IN THE GENERAL SENSE, IT SAYS THAT, UH, YOU ARE RELYING ON THAT, UM, UH, ENGINEER OR ARCHITECT TO SELF-CERTIFY THEIR OWN WORK SAYING THAT YES, WE HAVE, UH, UH, DESIGNED THIS PER CODE. WE HAVE DOUBLE CHECKED IT, AND THEY'RE DOING THEIR OWN REVIEW. DOING THEIR OWN REVIEW. YES. AND WHAT'S THE, WHAT'S THE, IN THIS HYPOTHETICAL WORLD, WHAT'S THE SLAP ON THE WRIST FOR THEM GETTING IT WRONG? DO WE NOT KNOW THAT SOME AGGRIEVED PERSON US IS, IS AN APPEAL TO US? THEY LOSE THEIR SELF-CERTIFICATION WOULD GENERALLY BE WHAT HAPPENS. AND WHO WOULD CATCH THAT IF THEY'RE SELF CERTIFYING? SO GENERALLY IT WOULD BE A HOMEOWNER COMPLAINING LATER AND THEN A SUBSEQUENT REVIEW, OR, OR IT COULD BE THE INSPECTOR IN THE FIELD. OH, YEAH. OR PERIODIC. SO THAT WOULD MEAN THERE COULD BE PERIODIC REVIEWS AS PART OF THE SELF-CERTIFICATION PROGRAM TO COM ENSURE THEY'RE COMPLIANT. SO THAT WOULD MEAN THAT BUILDING INSPECTORS WOULD THEN NEED TO KNOW LDC AS WELL AS THEY KNOW BUILDING CODE FOR THAT. HYPOTHETICALLY HAVE OUR OWN PLANNERS THAT OH, PLANNERS. OKAY. YEAH. YOU WOULDN'T SEND YOUR BUILDING CODE. OKAY. THAT MAKES SENSE. IN MY HEAD. I WAS LIKE, THEY DON'T NEED TO KNOW THAT TOO. SO YOU'VE REJECTED IMPLEMENTING THIS? WE ARE NOT PROPOSING IT AT THIS TIME. OKAY. FOR THE TIME BEING. AND, AND THAT WAS THE TRADE OFF. SO THE, THAT THE BIG CITIES WANTED THIS WAS ACTUALLY GONNA BE A MANDATORY SELF-CERTIFICATION PROGRAM. YEAH. UM, VERSUS LEAVING IT A MAY MM-HMM . FOR THE ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW OF, AND THE BIG CITIES WERE, WERE DEATHLY AFRAID OF THE SELF-CERTIFICATION 'CAUSE OF THE NUMBER OF SURE. NUMBER OF HOUSES AND THINGS BEING BUILT, I THINK. YEAH. UM, AND LOSING CONTROL OF THAT PROCESS. YEAH. AND SO THAT'S WHY THEY PUSHED REALLY HARD, WHEREAS THE SMALL CITIES MM-HMM . HAVE THIS WAY. MM-HMM . I MEAN, THIS WOULD BE LIKE IF YOU WERE A, A PURCHASER OF A HOME AND YOU WERE USING THE SELLER'S HOME INSPECTOR INSTEAD OF GETTING YOUR OWN, I MEAN, WHY WOULD YOU EVER DO THAT? MM-HMM . YOU WANT, YOU DON'T WANT TO RELY ON A DEVELOPER'S EMPLOYEE, WHICH WOULD BE THE DEVELOPER PAYING FOR THE ARCHITECT, THE ENGINEER, THE WHATEVER TO SELF-CERTIFY. YEAH. I GET THE CONCEPT OF WHY IT MAKES IT FASTER. AND IF EVERY PROFESSIONAL, ALTHOUGH THEY SHOULD BE ETHICAL BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LICENSE THAT IS AT STAKE, THAT HAS NOT BEEN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I ALSO WILL, WE WILL PROBABLY, THIS IS ALL WE'RE GONNA HEAR FROM YOU NOW IF WE'RE HEARING LDC IS LIKE, OUR CODE IS UNNECESSARILY COMPLICATED, AS SAID BY THE ARCHITECTURE. SO EVEN WITH SELF-CERTIFICATION, THE CONCEPT THAT THEY COULD GET EVERYTHING RIGHT ON THEIR OWN FEELS UNREALISTIC. JUST BECAUSE IT, THE CODE IS, IT'S SO COMPLEX. WELL, AND EVERY TIME SOMETHING CHANGES, YOU'RE GONNA RECERTIFY, YOU KNOW, WITH, WITH CHANGE ORDERS, YOU'RE GONNA RECERTIFY AND RECERTIFY. I MEAN, I APPRECIATE KNOWING WHAT IT IS MM-HMM . AND IF THE MAY IS TRUE, THEN I, UH, AGREE THAT I'M DON'T THINK WE NEED IT RIGHT NOW, ESPECIALLY WITH CODE. BUT AS I CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE FOR SIMPLER CODE, MAYBE THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S MORE REASONABLE. WHEN, IF, WHEN AN IF CODE IS MORE SIMPLE. BUT AS OF THIS TIME, I DON'T, THAT SEEMS, THAT MAKES ME NERVOUS. SO, AND WE'VE SEEN HERE, SITTING HERE, WE'VE DEFINITELY SEEN EXPERIENCED ENGINEERS MISINTERPRET CODE MM-HMM . YEAH. OR INTERPRET IN THE WAY THAT IS, AND THAT'S, I MEAN, THAT'S PART OF THE JOB RIGHT. IS INTERPRETED IN THE BEST HOPEFUL WAY OF YOUR PROJECT. THAT'S CORRECT. THAT IS LIKE, THAT IS THE J JOB . THAT'S TRUE. AND SO, LIKE, I, I, I REALLY DO GET THE HYPOTHETICAL WHERE THIS EXISTS AS A COOL THING, BUT I AM WITH OUR CODE AND THE REALITY OF PEOPLE SO AGREE WITH STAFF TO NOT, SO WHEN I READ THIS, I, I TOOK IT. DES MOINES HAD, FOR A LONG TIME, DES MOINES, IOWA HAD A PROCESS WHERE THE CITY WENT OVERLOADED WITH REVIEWS, WOULD HIRE FIRMS MM-HMM . AND ENGINEERS MM-HMM . TO DO A CODE REVIEW AND PROVIDE A CODE REVIEW DOCUMENT. YEAH. THAT WOULD HELP THE, UH, THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT THIS WAS. NOW THAT I UNDERSTAND WHAT IT REALLY IS, UM, I WOULD NEVER SUPPORT IT EVEN AS A PRACTICING ARCHITECT. UH, FIRST OF ALL, WE ALWAYS HAD CITIES AND CONTRACTS WANTING TO ADD THAT IF ANYTHING, AND OUR DRAWINGS, UH, WAS NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH CODE, WE WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHANGES AND WE LOBBIED TO GET THAT OUT OF OUR CONTRACTS. I WOULD FIND THAT IF I SELF CERTIFIED A HOSPITAL, THAT MY LIABILITY CARRIER WOULD TELL ME, I CAN'T DO THAT. TAKE A [01:45:01] HIKE. AND THEY WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN KNOCK, GONNA SELF CERTIFY YOUR PROJECTS THERE. MM-HMM . THERE IS TOO MUCH MM-HMM . AT STAKE, RISK AT STAKE. SO I THINK THIS IS ABSURD. AND I, BUT I, I UNDERSTAND. IT'S APPARENT TO ME THAT THE BILL'S ABOUT REMOVING ANY POLITICAL INPUT BY PLANNING AND ZONING AND BOARDS AND, AND CITY COUNCILS AND MAKING IT STRICTLY NON-POLITICAL. IT'S, BUT I WOULD, I WOULD THINK THIS WOULD BE CRAZY TO SELF-CERTIFY. OH, AND I, TO THE, TO THE CHANGES IN THE DISTANCE. UM, I THINK THE WHOLE PLANET ALMOST HAS 300 FEET. AND THE THOUGHT OF EXPANDING IT MORE TO GET MORE PUBLIC INPUT WHEN WE'VE ALWAYS HAD PUBLIC INPUT WITH 300 FEET AND WHEN A MAJOR CITY, WHEN A CITY PROJECT IS GONNA BE CITYWIDE, UM, I COULD SEE EXPANDING THE CITY SOME, BUT YOU WOULD THINK THE CITY RESIDENTS SHOULD KNOW ABOUT A PARKING GARAGE PROJECT. AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET A LETTER TO PROTEST. SO I'M, I'M AMBIVALENT ABOUT EXPANDING THE 300 FEET SUBSTANTIALLY AND PUTTING, I I THINK THIS LAW SPEAKS TO COMMISSIONS, MAKING MORE BURDEN ON DEVELOPERS. MM-HMM . AND THAT'S WHAT MM-HMM . THAT'S WHAT THIS COMMISSION WOULD BE DOING, WOULD BE DOING THAT. AND IF IT'S WORKED OKAY FOR DECADES, I'D SAY IT WOULD BE OKAY. I DISAGREE COMPLETELY. I KNOW . YEAH. UM, JUST WITH THIS CHURCH PROJECT, I'M ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE CHURCH, BUT I'M MORE THAN 300 FEET. SO I DIDN'T GET NOTIFIED. I GOT NOTIFIED BY THE HOA NEXT DOOR. BUT IT STILL DOES AFFECT ME. IT STILL AFFECTS MY TRAFFIC. IT STILL AFFECTS THE NOISE. I HEAR. BUT I'M NOT NOTIFIED HOW, HOW CAN YOU BE ACROSS FROM A CHURCH AND NOT BE NOTIFIED BECAUSE I'M ACROSS 80 9:00 AM I AM MORE THAN 300 FEET AWAY. OUR LOTS ARE SO BIG. SO I BET EVERY EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS THERE AFFECTS ME GETTING OUTTA MY SUBDIVISION. SO I HEAR YOU. UM, BUT I ALSO KNOW THAT WHEN CITY DID A CONTROVERSIAL PROJECT, IT NOTIFIED THE TREES. IT JUST DID 300 FEET . SO, 'CAUSE THERE WAS NO ONE TO NOTIFY. RIGHT. AND, AND, AND THAT'S CARRIE'S ACTUALLY COMMENT, HEY, THERE'S ONLY TREES. SO THERE'S ONLY THING WE COULDN'T NOTIFY WAS THE TREES . UM, AND IT CAUSED A LOT OF, A LOT OF ANGST. YOU KNOW, THE, THE, IT'S A BLESSING AND A CURSE TO HAVE PUBLIC INPUT. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT OTHER CITIES THAT ARE LARGE, THEY DON'T HAVE THESE TYPE OF FOLKS THAT FILL THE ROOM AND STAND, SIT IN A MEETING FOR TWO, THREE HOURS TO TALK ABOUT THREE MINUTES. YOU KNOW HOW YOU DON'T SEE IT. YOU RARELY SEE IT. UM, AND SO UNLESS IT'S SOME CONTROVERSIAL, YOU KNOW, COUNCIL MEMBER OR POLICE CHIEF OR FIRE CHIEF, YOU RARELY SEE THESE ROOMS FILLED. AND SO WE'RE REALLY BUZZED HERE IN SADONA GETTING PUBLIC FEEDBACK. WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THE ROOTS THAT WE DID FOR, UM, THE WESTERN GATEWAY, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE SHOW UP. YOU DO THAT IN ANY OTHER CITY, YOU GET 20. SO WE'RE, WE'RE CUTTING OFF LIKE ALMOST A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF WHAT WE HAVE HERE IN SEDONA. AND IT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE. MM-HMM . UM, AGAIN, I'LL GO BACK WHAT I SAID, CHANGE SOME POLICIES, PROTECT OUR STAFF, UM, AND CHANGE THE NOTIFICATION PROCESS. I MEAN, THAT'S REALLY THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO AT THIS POINT. UH, AND SO I'M CURIOUS TO SEE, 'CAUSE WHAT I, TALKING TO SEVERAL OTHER CITIES, THEY'RE ALSO TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THAT NOTIFICATION. BUT I'M CURIOUS TO SEE IF IT GETS CLEANED UP IN ANOTHER LEGISLATION SESSION OR THEY DICTATE THAT TOO. SO WE HAVE A MOTION ON PAGE FIVE IF ANYONE'S INTERESTED IN STEPPING UP AND MAKING IT. COULD I JUST MAKE ONE MORE COMMENT? 'CAUSE I WROTE IT DOWN SO CAREFULLY. YES, OF COURSE. UM, AND I'M GONNA READ IT BECAUSE I, I'M SO EMOTIONALLY IRKED BY THIS WHOLE THING. UM, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION HAS AND DOES SERVE A PURPOSE IN THE DEVELOPMENT REVIEW PROCESS TO DISTILL CONCERNS OF THE COMMUNITY, TO BRING SUNSHINE TO THE PROCESS ITSELF THROUGH OUR PUBLIC HEARINGS, TO BRING UP IDEAS OR CONCERNS WHICH STAFF MAY NOT HAVE UNDER ITS PURVIEW, OR OCCASIONALLY JUST TO HAVE SOME GOOD IDEAS. MM-HMM . IT IS VERY DISAPPOINTING TO FIND THAT THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND INDEED THE GOVERNOR, UH, PREFERS, EXPEDIENCY AND OPAQUENESS. THAT'S NOT THE WAY WE TRY TO DO THINGS IN SEDONA. AND I RESENT [01:50:01] THE OVERREACH. I SECOND THAT. I'LL NOW MAKE A MOTION TO PASS THIS THING. BUT SECOND, THAT IF NOTHING ELSE, I WAS GONNA GO THROUGH THE CHANGES THAT I HEARD DURING YOUR DISCUSSION. OKAY. BEFORE WE WAIT, I HAVE A QUESTION THAT POPPED UP. DO WE NEED TO CHANGE HOW OFTEN WE MEET AND DOES THAT NEED CHANGE? WE'RE GONNA BRING THAT UP UNDER THE, UM, FUTURE MEETING DATES. OKAY. I JUST DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS LIKE BYLAWS IF WE COULD TOUCH, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA BRING IT UP. OKAY, COOL. YEAH. OKAY. SO GOING BACK TO THE BEGINNING, I HAVE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO CLARIFY THAT WEDDING RECEPTIONS ARE ALLOWED IN COMMERCIAL ZONES. UM, YOU WOULD LIKE A DIA THE DIAGRAM FOR MASSING TO BE AMENDED TO REFLECT THE PROPOSED CHANGE. THERE IS THE, UM, DELETION OF THE THREE WORDS IN, IF I CAN BRING THAT UP, UM, IN 5.7 F TWO A SEVEN TO DELETE THE, FOR THE AREA SO THAT IT READS SHALL MEET THE SAME DIMENSIONAL STANDARDS AS MASSES ON THE EITHER SIDE OF THE SPACE VOID. AND THEN I HAVE INCREASED THE NOTIFICATION RADIUS, I BELIEVE 600 FEET WAS WHAT I HEARD. UNLESS THERE'S A DIFFERENT THAT'S GOOD. UM, BUT YOU ALSO WANT US TO PROVIDE CITY COUNCIL WITH ESTIMATES OF COST CHANGES, UM, WITH THE INCREASED NOTIFICATION RADIUS. UM, YOU WANT TO INCLUDE A RECOMMENDATION THAT CITY PROJECTS ARE A CITYWIDE NOTICE, UH, INCLUDING THE COST OF THAT FOR CITY COUNCIL. UM, AND IN THE ORDINANCE, UM, HAVE IT AN AUTOMATIC REVERSION OF THE ORDINANCE IF HB 24 47 IS RESCINDED AND THAT WAS GONNA BE OUTSIDE OF THIS COR CORRECT. THAT'LL BE IN THE ORDINANCE. BUT ALSO I THOUGHT THERE WAS THE CHANGE IN THE DEFINITION OF SPECIAL EVENTS TO INCLUDE OTHER RELATED WEDDING ACTIVITIES. OH, YEAH. WORKSHOPS AND TRAININGS, RIGHT? YEAH. CLASSES. WAS THAT EVERYTHING? BAND WORKSHOPS. AND IT SAID LIKE, WEDDING RECEPTIONS AND OR OTHER WEDDING ASSOCIATED ACTIVITIES LIKE BACHELOR PARTIES, BACHELOR, YOU KNOW, TO PRECLUDE THAT CLASSES AND WORKSHOPS. CAN YOU SAY THAT? YEAH. LET ME GIVE ME DOWN. YOU PUT A SECOND. UM, 19. 19 WEDDINGS, WEDDING RECEPTIONS AND OR OTHER WEDDING ASSOCIATED EVENTS. AND THEN ALSO ADDING CLASSES AND WORKSHOPS, RETREATS. IS THAT WORD ON THERE? THAT'S IN THERE? THAT'S RETREATS. . THANK YOU. MY ONLY OTHER COMMENT WAS YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO REVISE, UM, ON THE WEBSITE, THE COMMISSION PURPOSE AND, AND THEY'LL HAVE A DISSENTING OPINION. , CAN WE JUST DO A STRIKE THROUGH? DON'T, JUST DON'T, DON'T REVISE IT. JUST RUN A STRIKE THROUGH , REV, STRIKETHROUGH. THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE DISSENT WE'RE ALLOWED . GOOD. SO WE WOULD JUST REFERENCE AS AMENDED OR AS PROPOSED IT? YEAH. YES. AS THE MOTION WOULD MAKE REFERENCE TO THE SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE COMMISSION. OKAY. AS AMENDED. I I CAN TRY THAT TO DO THAT. IS THAT, CAN I TRY? OKAY. OH, CAN I, ONE MORE. KATHY, AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS MEETING, YOU SAID THERE WERE TWO REASONS SPECIFICALLY THAT YOU DIDN'T FEEL LIKE. YEAH, I PERSONALLY FELT THAT TWO OF THE CRITERIA, UM, WHICH ARE MANDATED FOR CONSISTENCY RIGHT. FOR AMENDMENTS, THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE HAD NOT BEEN MET. RIGHT. AND I AGREE WITH THAT. OKAY. SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE IT? YEAH. DO, CAN WE VOTE FOR SOMETHING THAT YEAH. IS INCONSISTENT WITH TWO OF THE CRITERIA, RIGHT? MM-HMM . THE STRONGEST ONE. THAT'S A GREAT, THAT IS NECESSARY TO DEMONSTRATE A COMMUNITY NEED IN MY MIND. RIGHT. AND THAT'S THE OPPOSITE. YES. RIGHT? YEAH. I MEAN, DOES IT SEND A MESSAGE IF WE WERE TO LIKE, WHAT, WHAT HAPPENS IF WE ALL I DON'T ACTUALLY, NEVERMIND. I DON'T KNOW HOW WE CAN DO THAT. I DON'T THINK THE COMMUNITY PLAN IS AN ENFORCEABLE DOCUMENT IN THE WAY THAT OTHER ONES ARE. IS IT? [01:55:01] NO, I'M, I'M TA NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE CRITERIA FOR AMENDING THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE USES THIS LANGUAGE AS NECESSARY TO DIS DEMONSTRATE A COMMUNITY NEED. I'LL DROP THE OTHER ONE. RIGHT? LIKE IF WE VOTED NO, WOULD THAT BE SENDING A MESSAGE TO COUNCIL ABOUT HOW WE FEEL? YEAH. YEAH. MM-HMM . WHAT DOES VOTING? VOTING NO SAYS ALL THESE CHANGES AND THE AMENDMENTS WE JUST DISCUSSED, WE DON'T WANT THEM THAT CORRECT. I'M, I NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE, BECAUSE THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SAYING. WE'RE SAYING NO TO THESE CHANGES. 'CAUSE WE DON'T THINK THEY MEET THE GUIDELINES OF WHAT, HOW WE CAN CHANGE CODE. RIGHT. AND NOT THAT STAFF HAS DONE ANYTHING WRONG. STAFF IS JUST FOLLOWING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO. BUT IF WE ALL VOTE NO, DOES THAT PERHAPS SEND A MESSAGE? YEAH. IT'LL STILL BE COUNCIL. WELL, BECAUSE, BECAUSE THESE WERE SWEEPING AMENDMENTS BEYOND THE, THE HOUSE BILL. UM, I MEAN, IT PUTS US IN A PREDICAMENT BECAUSE THERE ARE VALID SUGGESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE ALL MADE TO THE REMAINDER OF, UM, THE REVISIONS. CORRECT. RIGHT. AND THERE AND A FEW REGARDING THE, THE SPECIFIC HOUSE BILL. SO I MEAN, A NO VOTE WOULD CONVEY ALL TRULY MM-HMM . BUT WE COULD CLARIFY OUR THINKING. WE COULD DO A A YES. VOTE FOR THE AMENDMENTS AND A NO VOTE FOR EVERYTHING ELSE. I DON'T KNOW. LET'S HEAR FROM KURT. CHAIR, COMMISSIONER. SO I I WOULDN'T, YOU CAN, YOU CAN, UH, SEND A RECOMMENDATION OF DENIAL MM-HMM . TO CITY COUNCIL FOR THE CHANGES BECAUSE YOU DON'T FEEL IT'S CONSISTENT RECOGNIZING THAT THE CITY'S HANDS ARE LIKELY GONNA BE TIED, UH, RIGHT, RIGHT. BY THE STATE LAW CHANGES. RIGHT. RIGHT. UH, AND THEN YOU COULD PUT IN A, THE CAVEAT THAT IF COUNCIL APPROVES IT, YOU'D RECOMMEND MM-HMM . THOSE CHANGES TO THE CITY STAFF. YEAH. OR I MEAN, WE COULD ASSUME THAT COUNCIL IS LOOKING, FOLLOWING OUR DISCUSSION, FOLLOWING OUR DISCUSSION, AND WE'LL TAKE IT UNDER CONSIDERATION BECAUSE THERE IS A TIME CONSTRAINT WITH MM-HMM . THE ADOPTION OF THIS MM-HMM . THE, THE END OF THE YEAR. SO WE'RE, WELL, WE'RE AHEAD OF IT. OKAY. RIGHT. UM, WE BROUGHT IT FORWARD EARLY IN CASE THERE WAS, I'M A REASON TO COME BACK MULTIPLE TIMES. I'M ASSUMING EVEN IF WE SAY NO, THE STAFF REPORT FOR COUNCIL WILL REPORT ON THE AMENDMENTS WE DISCUSSED ANYWAY. OR WE CAN REQUEST THAT. YES. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. OF COURSE. OKAY. AND, AND GENERALLY COUNSEL DOES WATCH, UH, YEAH, OF COURSE. . I JUST, THIS IS STRATEGICALLY CONFUSING. WELL, AND YOU KNOW, WE'RE CHARGED WITH IMPLEMENTING THIS LEGISLATION. I MEAN, WE CAN'T DENY THAT WE ARE BEING ASKED TO FOLLOW THE LAW. RIGHT. THAT WILL NOT HOLD ME BACK FROM VOTING AWAY. I THINK AND, AND I COULD SO EASILY VOTE NO. MM-HMM . UM, I DO THINK IN VOTING NO, WE'D LOSE THE, THE, UH, THINGS THAT WE ARE ASKING THEM TO DO BECAUSE, UM, UH, 'CAUSE WE'RE NOT VOTING YES. WITH THOSE PROVISIONS THAT WE'RE JUST SAYING NO, WE'RE AGAINST IT. MM-HMM . BUT ALSO HERE, HERE'S ALL THESE PROVISIONS THAT WE WANT YOU TO DO. I THINK I'D BE REQUIRED TO VOTE YES IF I'M GONNA SAY YOU ALSO HAVE TO HAVE THESE PROVISIONS, BUT I THINK WE COULD SEND A MEMO ALONG WITH IT SAYING THAT WHAT YOU SAID HERE, THAT WE THINK IT IS IN VIOLATION OF THAT, THAT IT DOESN'T, THAT IT DOESN'T DO THAT. AND UM, MAYBE SOMEONE ON THE COUNCIL CAN BE MORE CREATIVE AND I'LL HAVE SOME TIME TO BE CREATIVE TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION TO THAT. I, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS. PLACE OUR AGENDA BILLS PLACE FOR CITY COUNCIL. DO SUMMARIZE YOUR DISCUSSION. DO SUM, SO WE DO NOT JUST REPORT ON ONLY THE RECOMMENDATION. WE JUST, YOU KNOW, OUR, WE WILL PROVIDE, WE GENERALLY PROVIDE A LINK SO THAT THEY CAN LISTEN OR WATCH THE MEETING. AND WE PROVIDE A SUMMARY OF THE DISCUSSION, WHICH WE WOULD DO FOR THIS AS WELL. I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY MANY OF THEM THAT THEY WANT YES. HI. COULD, SO THAT'S, THAT BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT IN THAT. COULD WE, OR WOULD THIS MAKE KURT UNHAPPY, SAY, UH, ADD TO OUR MOTION AGAINST WHAT WE BELIEVE IS WRITTEN AS PART OF OUR JOB. MM-HMM . YOU KNOW, BASICALLY ADD THAT INTO THE MOTION. WE CAN APPROVE IT, BUT WE'RE BASICALLY SAYING OUR HANDS ARE TIED. YEAH. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'D LIKE THAT. YES. YOU CAN APPROVE EMOTION UNDER PROTEST. UNDER, UNDER UNDER DURESS. . YES. UNDER DURESS. SO YOU HAVE SOME OPTIONS FOR YOUR MOTION. . CHARLOTTE'S LIKE, I'M DONE. I'M NOT DOING THIS ONE. I'LL PASS. WHAT ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE WITH SERIOUS CONCERNS AS TO THE APPROPRIATENESS OF, UM, THE APPLICATION OF, OF THIS? YEAH. MM-HMM . OKAY. [02:00:04] I'M SORRY. STEP IF YOU THOUGHT THIS WAS GONNA BE EASY. OKAY, GOOD. I DID , WHAT'S THAT WAS GONNA BE, BUT CARRIE WAS BEING OPTIMISTIC AND THERE'S NO PIZZA. I WAS EXPECTING PIZZA. GET PIZZA. IF YOU'RE HERE FOR FOUR HOURS, MAYBE THAT'LL AFFECT OUR VOTE. TWO MORE HOURS. LEMME TRY THIS AND THEN IF, IF IT, OKAY. SO WITH SERIOUS CONCERN ABOUT THE APPLICATION, THE OF HB OF, UH, OF HB 24 47, I MOVE TO RECOMMEND TO CITY COUNCIL APPROVAL OF CASE NUMBER PZ 25 0 0 0 0 9 LDC, REVISIONS, PUBLIC HEARINGS, APPEAL PROCEDURES, GENERAL CLARIFICATIONS, CONSISTENT WITH THE APPROVAL CRITERIA IN SECTION 8.6 C FOUR OF THE LDC AND THE SPECIFIC AMENDMENTS BROUGHT BY THE COMMISSION. MM-HMM . I CAN GO WITH THAT. MM-HMM . I'LL SECOND. OKAY. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SAY AYE. AYE. AYE. AYE. ALL THOSE OPPOSED SAY NAY, NAY, NAY, NAY. RAISE YOUR HANDS PLEASE. THREE. MOTION PASSES. FOUR, THREE. PERFECT. OKAY. GOOD JOB. SO, CARRIE, DO THEY HAVE TO SAY WHY THEY VOTED? NO, I SERIOUSLY, I WANT THE CITY TO BE GLADIATORS. I WANT THEM TO FIGHT FOR OUR COMMUNITY AND OUR RIGHTS. SO THAT'S HOW I, I SECOND THAT. ALRIGHTY. MADAM CHAIR, CLOSED. AGENDA ITEM, WOULD YOU STATE WHO SECONDED AND WHO THE NEGATIVE VOTES WERE, PLEASE? SURE. THE SECOND CAME FROM COMMISSIONER MARTIN. MARTIN AND I WAS, NAY WHEEL WAS NAY. SMITH WAS A NAY THREE OF US. THANK YOU. MM-HMM . OKAY. [6. FUTURE MEETING DATES AND AGENDA ITEMS] AGENDA ITEM NUMBER SIX, FUTURE MEETING DATES AND AGENDA ITEMS. AND CARRIE OFF KIND OF OFFLINE, A COUPLE OF US WERE TALKING ABOUT JUST BEFORE THE MEETING STARTED, THAT WITH THE, UM, 50% REDUCTION, THE 50% REDUCTION IN THE COMMISSION'S, UM, WORKLOAD, THAT PERHAPS WE DON'T NEED TO SCHEDULE TWO MEETINGS A MONTH. SO I WANTED TO THROW THAT OUT TO YOU. YES. SO YOU DO HAVE RULES AND PROCEDURES THAT ARE ADOPTED BY COUNCIL, BUT WE CAN BRING THEM BACK AND YOU WOULD MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS ON POTENTIAL CHANGES. SO COULD WE PUT THAT ON THE NEXT AGENDA? BECAUSE THAT WOULD REMOVE THE ADMINISTRATIVE BURDEN, RIGHT. BECAUSE OTHERWISE WE HAVE TO HAVE CANCELLATION NOTIFICATIONS AND THE GOAL CANCELLATION. WE CAN, THERE'S SOME, THERE'S SOME PROS AND CONS THAT WE'RE NOT AGENDAS TO DISCUSS TONIGHT, BUT WE CAN, BUT YEAH. BUT YOU CAN AGENDIZE IT AND LOOK AT WHETHER IT'S REALISTIC TO RIGHT. FOR TIMELINES. AND ALSO WOULD YOU ADD TO THE NEXT AGENDA ELECTION OF OFFICERS. OKAY. AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE NEXT TWO MEETINGS. OKAY. SO YOUR NEXT AGENDA, YOUR NEXT MEETING IN TWO WEEKS, WE HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING SCHEDULED FOR A ZONE CHANGE FOR THE RIGBY PROPERTY. WHICH ONE? RIGBY. RIGBY PROPERTY. UM, RIGBY LANE. RIGBY, DO YOU WE WANT PIZZA. I WAS GONNA ASK IF YOU WANTED A SITE VISIT. YES. YES. OKAY. THAT'S THE 16TH. YES. YES. 16TH. AND ACTUALLY I LIKE WHEN YOU DID THE NON PIZZA, LIKE YOU HAD MORE SALADS AND STUFF. OH, OKAY. YEAH, THAT WAS NICE. OKAY. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE ON THAT? UM, APPARENTLY RULES AND PROCEDURES AND ELECTION OF OFFICERS. YEAH. GREAT. OKAY. UM, AND THEN THE OCTO, ARE WE IN OCTOBER ALREADY? OCTOBER 7TH? IS THAT THE ONE THAT'S NEXT ON THE AGENDA? WE THE SHUTTLE PARKING LOT. THE WHAT? TREES? THE SHUTTLE PARKING LOT FOR. OH, REALLY? OKAY. UM, YEAH, AND I BELIEVE WHEN THAT WAS, UM, TABLE, THAT'S BEEN A LONG TIME IN COMING BACK. MM-HMM . YEAH. THERE WAS A CHANGE IN, YOU KNOW, THE TRANSIT ADMINISTRATOR POSITION AND SOME OF THE INFORMATION THAT YOU GUYS WERE WANTING TOOK SOME TIME TO RUN, YOU KNOW, KEEP TRACK OF RIGHT. BOARDINGS AND, AND ALL THAT. SO, UM, AND I BELIEVE YOU GUYS WANTED A SITE VISIT FOR THAT. UM, WAS WHAT CARRIE, SINCE I LIVE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD, AND I'VE ASKED FOR THIS BEFORE, WOULD YOU NOTIFY THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD? AND SECONDLY, ALL OF THE TAGS ON THE TREES TO STAY AND GO ARE GONE. OH, OKAY. SO THEY, IT NEEDS TO BE RETAGGED. [02:05:08] WHAT TIME WOULD THAT SITE VISIT BE? UM, OCTOBER. WE DON'T NEED TO START IT SUPER EARLY AND SO PROBABLY NINE, UNLESS YOU GUYS WANTED A LATER TIME. NINE'S GREAT. MM-HMM . OKAY. AND, BUT THE RIGBY ONE WOULD BE EARLY STILL. UM, WELL, IS IT BE IN TWO WEEKS? SO YOU STILL WANNA DO EIGHT O'CLOCK FOR THAT? OKAY. YEAH. SAY THE WOMEN IN THE GROUP. HMM. IT SAYS THE WOMEN IN THE GROUP THE HEAT. YEAH, IT'S OKAY. AND, AND THE SHUTTLE'S THE ONLY AGENDA ITEM ON THAT AS OF RIGHT NOW, THE NOTICING DEADLINE FOR THAT I BELIEVE IS NEXT WEEK. SO THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING ELSE, BUT OKAY. NOT CONFIRMED YET. THANK YOU. OKAY. CAN, AND ALSO, JUST SO YOU KNOW, ON THE 16TH IS THE VOLUNTEER APPRECIATION LUNCH. OH. OH, OKAY. SO Y'ALL KNOW THAT. AND THAT'S AT, UM, THAT'S AT, I HAD IT AS 10 30. HOW, HOW COME, COME WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. AND YOU DO IN, IT'S IN OUR EMAIL. EMAIL. OH, I DIDN'T, I DIDN'T YOU LOOKING AT YOUR OUTLOOK? I AM. I ALWAYS LOOK AT OUTLOOK. OH, I DIDN'T GET THE LAST PACKET. OKAY. OH YEAH. EITHER 10 30 TO 10 30 TO NOON. I WILL SEND THAT INVITATION AGAIN. I BELIEVE YOU NEED TO SVP TO KEEGAN, OUR ASAP. SO I WILL RESEND THAT. AND DID WE GET OFFICIAL, LIKE JOE AND I WERE TALKING, SHE GOT SOME EMAILS ABOUT FORWARD, THAT EMAIL ST. JOHN V THAT I DIDN'T GET, MIGHT HAVE WENT JUST TO HER, BUT IF THERE WAS ANY LIKE, COMMENTS SENT TO US ABOUT PROJECTS RECENTLY, I HAVEN'T RECEIVED THEM. I GOT THEM AND I, AND I, AND I THREW AWAY BECAUSE IT SAID IT WAS FROM A BAD SOURCE AND IT CAME ON A HOLIDAY. AND I SAID, THAT'S A, HMM, MAYBE THAT'S WHY I DON'T HAVE MINE. AS I HAVE THE SPAM FILTER, I WENT AHEAD AND FORWARDED IT TO HARRY. SO SHE HAS ALL THREE. I DID SEND THIS TO YOU, MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMENTED, AND WE'RE NOT REALLY AGENDIZED TO TALK ABOUT THIS EITHER, JUST EMAIL. UM, BUT YEAH, IF WE, THEY HAVE GENERALLY COMMENTED ON OUR ONLINE FORM AS WELL. COOL. I JUST, I JUST MESSAGED YOU THE LANGUAGE. OKAY. 'CAUSE I HAVE A HARD PROBLEM SENDING OUTLOOK TO OH, YOU DO? OH YOU DO? OH, OKAY. WELL, I'LL GET IT ANOTHER WAY. YES. ALL RIGHT. ARE WE READY TO ADJOURN? MM-HMM . UH, 6:40 PM THANK YOU. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.