* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. [00:00:01] GOOD MORNING, MAYOR. GOOD MORNING, MAYOR. WELCOME TO THE CITY OF SEDONA. WE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE COUNCIL MEETING. I WOULD LIKE TO CALL THIS MEETING TO ORDER AT 8:01 AM I'M GONNA ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE STAND FOR THE PANCE I PLEDGE. PLEDGE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD IN INDIVISIBLE WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. AND NOW A MOMENT OF SILENCE. THANK YOU, MADAM CLERK. CAN YOU READ THE ROLL CALL, PLEASE? MAYOR PLU. HERE. VICE MAYOR FOLTZ. PRESENT. COUNCILOR DUNN? HERE. COUNCILOR FURMAN? HERE. COUNCILOR KINSELLA. PRESENT. COUNCILOR FAF. HERE. OKAY, [3.a. AB 3280 Discussion/possible action on the Council Rules of Procedure, Sedona City Code Title 2 Administration and Personnel, and Recommendations related to the 10.08.2025 HR Investigation Report] LET'S START. GOAL IS TO HAVE THIS MEETING. BE THOROUGH, BUT BE OVER BEFORE FIVE O'CLOCK. SOUND LIKE A FIVE GOAL? . OKAY. UH, KURT, I'LL TURN IT OVER TO YOU. IT'S AB 32 6 80. DISCUSS POSSIBLE ACTION ON THE COUNCIL. RULES OF PROCEDURE. SEDONA CITY CODE TITLE TWO, ADMINISTRATION AND PERSONNEL AND RECOMMENDATIONS RELATED TO THE 10.08 2025 HR INVESTIGATION REPORT. THANK YOU, MADAM MAYOR AND COUNSELORS. SO, UM, THIS ITEM WAS FIRST CALLED FOR BY COUNCILOR FURMAN, IF I REMEMBER RIGHT, HE WANTED TO DISCUSS IN LIGHT OF THE RESIGNATION OF THE FORMER MAYOR JALO SOME ADDITIONAL IDEAS AMONG COUNCIL OF WHAT THEY COULD DO, UH, TO PREVENT, UH, THAT TYPE OF SITUATION FROM HAPPENING AGAIN. UM, AND THEN AFTER HE HAD PROPOSED IT, THEN, UH, YEAH, COUNCILOR KINSELLA SAID, WELL, I'D LIKE TO DO A MORE IN DEPTH, UH, REVIEW LINE BY LINE. AND THAT WAS, UH, SUPPORTED BY MAYOR PLU, UH, LINE BY LINE. AND SO WE SCHEDULED THIS FOR, FOR ALL DAY ONE. 'CAUSE IF WE DO GO THROUGH LINE BY LINE, IT COULD TAKE A WHILE. UH, BUT THIS IS ALSO SOMETHING WE DO AT LEAST ANNUALLY ANYWAY. GENERALLY, WE BEGIN THIS DISCUSSION AT THE, UH, COUNCIL RETREAT, UH, TO GO THROUGH IT, UH, MORE AT A HIGHER LEVEL, SECTION BY SECTION OR, OR EVEN RULE BY RULE. UM, BUT IN THIS CASE, UH, IT'S, IT'S, WE'RE HAPPY TO DO THIS, UH, EARLIER AND TAKE A LOOK AT THIS AND GO THROUGH THIS, UM, SECTION BY SECTION. SO I DID SEND OUT LAST WEEK, UH, BASED ON JUST WHAT I'D HEARD FROM A FEW COUNSELORS AT, AT THAT MEETING AND OTHER TIMES, AND THEN ALSO INCORPORATING SOME OF THE IDEAS FROM THE, UH, STACY GABRIEL'S HR INVESTIGATION REPORT AND HER RECOMMENDATIONS. I PUT THOSE IN THERE TO GIVE US A STARTING PLACE. UM, BUT THE DIRECTION FROM COUNSEL WAS TO GO THROUGH, UH, LINE BY LINE. AND SO WE WILL BEGIN, UM, THE REVIEW SECTION BY SECTION UNLESS SOMEONE HAS A DIFFERENT IDEA OF HOW THEY NOW, HOW THEY'D LIKE TO DO IT. SO, UM, AND THE FIRST, FIRST ITEM UP IS OUR, UH, PRINCIPLES OF ETHIC, ETHICAL CONDUCT FOR COUNSELORS AND ELECTED OFFICIALS. SO, UM, I THREW IN A COUPLE SUGGESTIONS HERE. UH, TRYING TO EXPAND THEM A LITTLE BIT. THEY, UH, IN LIGHT OF THE FORMER MAYOR, LET'S SEE IF WE CAN MAKE IT, WE NEED IT BIGGER. IS THAT ABOUT AS BIG AS YOU SEE GETS? UNLESS WE CAN, THE PROJECTORS SHOULD BE BIGGER ON THE SCREEN TOO, BUT, AND SO I'LL OPEN IT TO COUNCIL DISCUSSION ON EACH, ON EACH ONE OF THESE ITEMS. UM, I DON'T KNOW IF WE ACTUALLY WANT TO READ THEM OUT LOUD, IF THAT WOULD HELP, UM, EVERYONE UNDERSTAND, OR IF EVERYONE WANTS TO JUST TAKE A MINUTE TO READ IT SILENTLY AND THEN WE'LL DISCUSS AFTERWARDS. I THINK EVERYBODY'S ROOTING THEM SILENTLY AT THE MOMENT. OKAY. LOOKING FOR THE CHANGES. IT'S NOT IN THE PACKET. NO, IT'S IN THAT SEPARATE MEMO THAT KURT SENT. AND IF YOU OPEN IT IN WORD, YOU CAN SEE THE RED LINE. I EMAILED IT ON A SEPARATE EMAIL FROM KURT. YEAH. THURSDAY OR FRIDAY. WE COULD ALSO PRINT OUT A COPY. IT'S TOO SMALL. DOES ANYONE WANT A PRINTED COPY? WE COULD DO IT. OKAY, COOL. KURT SENT IT AT THURSDAY. 10 23. WHAT WAS THE QUESTION? WOULD YOU LIKE A [00:05:01] PRINTED COPY OR ARE YOU GOOD WITH THE I WOULD LIKE A PRINTED, WE COULD PRINT THEM OUT A COPY. YEAH, SURE. I'M GOOD WITH ANYBODY ELSE WANT A PRINTED COPY? SAVING TREES. OKAY. ONE COPY. JOANNE, CAN YOU IDENTIFY, KURT, JUST IF THERE'S ANY OF THE, THESE THAT YOU ADDED BECAUSE OF THE REPORT AND THE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE INVESTIGATOR? SO, SO ALL THREE OF THESE WERE, UM, AS A RESULT OF, UH, ONE, ONE REVIEWING OTHER CODES OF CONDUCT FROM OTHER CITIES, AND THEN TWO, AS A RESULT OF THE, UM, THE ACTIONS BY FORMER MAYOR JALO, NOT NECESSARILY 'CAUSE OF THE REPORT. I DON'T BELIEVE SHE HAD SUGGESTED ANY CHANGES TO THE, UH, CODE OF ETHICAL CONDUCT FOR YOUR ELECTED OF, UH, ELECTED OFFICIALS. SO THESE WERE MY OWN IDEAS. AND IF, IF YOU RECALL THE REASONS, UH, THAT THERE WAS THE PUBLIC CSU FORMER MAYOR JABO WERE PRIMARILY A NUMBER OF THE REASONS WERE PULLED FROM THIS CODE. RIGHT? I THINK THE, THERE WERE A COUPLE OTHER RULES MENTIONED, BUT IT'S PRIMARILY THESE CODE. AND SO I, I FELT LIKE IT'D BE GOOD TO HAVE A FEW MORE ITEMS IN HERE. I AM LOOKING FOR RAISED HANDS RIGHT HERE. UH, BRIAN, VICE MAYOR. THANK YOU. ON, UH, ITEM FIVE, WHAT YOU'VE ADDED ON THERE AND ENDS WITH, WITH THE PUBLIC. I THINK ONE OF THE ISSUES WE HAVE IS, IS THAT ALSO WITHIN THE COUNCIL BODY AS WELL? SO IF THAT COULD BE ADDED ON, UH, SO, AND OPEN COMMUNICATION WITH THE PUBLIC AND WITHIN THE CITY COUNCIL, IF I COULD AMEND THAT, I WOULD JUST GET RID OF, WITH THE PUBLIC. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE WITH EVERYONE, WHETHER THEY'RE STAFF OR COUNCIL OR THE PUBLIC OR NEWS OR WHATEVER. THAT'S, THAT'S OUR GOAL IS TO PROMOTE TRANSPARENCY, ACCOUNTABILITY, AND OPEN COMMUNICATION PERIOD WITH ALL PARTIES OR I, I WOULD JUST SAY PERIOD . OKAY. THAT, THAT WAS MY FIRST START TOO. VICE MAYOR FUL. THEN IF I'M FINE, IF WE WANT IT TO BE MORE BROAD, THEN I WOULD JUST LEAVE IT LIKE THAT. SO NUMBER EIGHT, I'M JUST A LITTLE CONFUSED BY THE WORDING. I WILL CONDUCT MYSELF SO AS TO MAINTAIN PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN CITY GOVERNMENT. IS THAT SUPPOSED TO BE THEN A COMMA OR A, AND TO ACT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY? MY IDEA WAS THAT, UH, BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF SOME PERCEIVED LACK OF TRUST IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THE IDEA WAS THROUGH THAT THE CITY GOVERNMENTS ACTING IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY. SO THE CITY THANK YOU. OKAY. THANK YOU. BUT IT COULD CERTAINLY BE SPLIT UP INTO TWO SEPARATE IDEAS WITH A COMMA OR AN, AND KATHY, DO YOU HAVE A POINT OF VIEW ON THIS? I ACTUALLY, UH, I AGREE WITH COMMUNICATION PERIOD. AND I LIKE ALL THE OTHER CHANGES. EVERYBODY GOOD? MM-HMM . ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS TO ADD ANYTHING ELSE? BACK TO COUNSELOR DUNNS. WOULD IT, IF WE TOOK OUT GOVERNMENT CONFIDENCE IN THE CITY TO ACT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY, WOULD THAT YEAH. I THINK IF WE MEANT, IF WE MEANT THE GOVERNMENT OF THE CITY, THEN I THINK THE CITY PROBABLY CLARIFIES IT FOR ME. YEAH. I THINK THAT WORKS WELL IN IT. YEAH, THAT WORKS. CONFIDENCE IN THE CITY. I THINK WE'RE GOOD, KURT. OKAY. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. RULE ONE, UH, UM, BEGINNING WITH THE PURPOSE. I'M HAPPY TO READ IT. I'M NOT, AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW COUNCIL OR EVERYONE CAN JUST GLANCE AT AND SEE IF THEY HAVE ANY THOUGHTS OR QUESTIONS. I GUESS WE CAN DO THAT. WE, SO WE'LL RULE ONE SECTION A OR PARAGRAPH A, THE PURPOSE. WE'LL JUST START WITH THAT. I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO READ IT OUT LOUD. I DON'T THINK SO. . ALL RIGHT. I JUST TO EXPEDITE THIS, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING UNTIL RULE TWO. OKAY. I, ON THIS, ON THIS PAGE, I WOULD, I'M GONNA ASK, ONCE AGAIN, I BROUGHT THIS UP PREVIOUSLY THAT ON B FIVE AMENDMENT OF THESE RULES IS ONLY A MAJORITY VOTE. WE'RE SPENDING A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY [00:10:01] DOING THESE RULES AND PROCEDURES. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT WE MAKE IT HARDER TO AMEND THEM IN THE FUTURE. AND WHAT, WHAT IS YOUR SUGGESTION? TWO THIRDS. OKAY. SO THAT'S FIVE. YEAH. MAJORITY. KATHY. UM, I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT. UM, BUT SOMETIMES WE AMEND THEM FOR THE PURPOSE OF A MEETING THAT'S ABOVE. I'M NOT SUGGESTING THE CHANGE OF THAT. OKAY. FOUR IS THE SUSPENSION, THE RULES, THE MAJORITY. OKAY. THANK YOU FOR CLARIFYING. AND THEN COUNSELORS, MY ONLY THOUGHT ON THAT IS THAT IT'S STILL JUST A, THE RULES ARE STEM FROM OR FROM CITY ORDINANCE. UM, THE CITY ORDINANCE AUTHORIZES THESE RULES OF PROCEDURES AND COUNCILS ADOPTED THEM. AND THAT CAN ALWAYS BE AMENDED JUST BY A SIMPLE, A MAJORITY. SO JUST FOUR VOTES. SO YOU COULD, YOU COULD RESCIND THE WHOLE RULES, RESCIND THE ORDINANCE, UH, WITH THESE RULES, THERE'S JUST FOUR VOTES, RIGHT? SO YOU AT LEAST PUT ONE BARRIER IN PLACE. , UH, THAT'S, I'M NOT, AND SO I'M JUST, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WOULD STOP A, A, A, A DEDICATED FOUR MEMBER COUNCIL. YOU KNOW, THEY COULD, THEY COULD BLOW UP THE WHOLE THING IF THEY WANTED TO. IT'S JUST FOUR VOTES. UM, BUT, BUT I, I DO APPRECIATE THE SENTIMENT. I THINK WE HAVE WORKED HARD ON THESE RULES OVER THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS. UM, THEY'VE BEEN GONE THROUGH, UM, A NUMBER OF TIMES. AND SO, UM, AND, AND TO COUNCILOR KINSELLA, AS I, I AGREE WITH YOU, COUNCILOR FURMAN, THAT IT, THAT THE ABILITY TO SUSPENSE REGULAR, YOU KNOW, ANY RULES AT, FOR ANY GIVEN MEETING OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT CAN BE DONE JUST BY A SIMPLE MAJORITY STILL, EVEN IF IT TOOK TWO THIRDS TO AMEND IT. DOES EVERYONE CONCUR WITH THE CHANGE FOR TWO THIRDS? YEAH. I THINK THE SIMPLE MAJORITY IS STILL, IT'S HOW WE DO ALL THE REST OF OUR ORDINANCES. SO IT DOES FEEL A LITTLE ODD THAT WE HAVE ONE ORDINANCE THAT TYPE, THAT WE WOULD DO A, UM, SUPER MAJORITY. YEAH. MY VIEW IS, IS IF WE'RE DOING THIS DEFENSIVELY AGAINST FACTIONS, KURT'S ALREADY SAID FACTIONS CAN STILL FLIP THIS. SO I DON'T SEE A NEED TO DO IT. I'D LEAVE IT. YOU'D LEAVE IT? I MEAN, IF THE, IF FOUR OUT OF CAN OVERRIDE EVERYTHING, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A MAJORITY, APPARENTLY. OKAY. OKAY. ALRIGHT. I DID ADD IN THE FIRST, UM, HOPEFULLY NOT A LOT MORE, BUT THERE ONE RULE OF CONSTRUCTION HERE, UM, DURING THIS LAST REVIEW AND DURING THE INCIDENTS THAT HAVE LED UP TO THIS, THE, THERE WAS A NUMBER OF SECTIONS THAT WEREN'T QUITE CLEAR. IF THE, 'CAUSE THE, IF THE MAYOR, UM, HAD TO FOLLOW ALL THE RULES OF CITY COUNCIL, IF THEY HAD SOME SEPARATE TYPE OF RULES. AND SO THIS RULE OF CONSTRUCTION WOULD BE TO CLARIFY THAT THE MAYOR DOES HAVE TO FOLLOW ALL THE SAME RULES AS COUNSELORS AND, AND IS STILL CONSIDERED A CITY COUNSELOR FOR, AS FAR AS THE RULES OF RULES OF PROCEDURE. I THINK WE'RE ALL GOOD WITH THAT. YES. DO WE NEED TO SAY MAYOR AND VICE MAYOR? DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE? SO THE, THE MAYOR'S ELECTED, OR THE VICE MAYOR'S ELECTED AS A COUNSELOR. SO THAT ONE'S OKAY. DIDN'T RAISE THE SAME ISSUES, BUT FOR EXTRA CLARITY, WE CAN PUT IT IN THERE. YEAH. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE WE DIDN'T HAVE THE SAME ISSUE. YEAH. SO THE MAYOR'S ELECTED AS A MAYOR, RIGHT? BY THE, BY THE PUBLIC. UH, THE VICE MAYOR'S ELECTED AS A COUNSELOR, AND THEN IT'S JUST, UH, DESIGNATED, UH, OR SELECTED AS A VICE MAYOR FOR A PERIOD. I WOULD SPEAK AGAINST SEPARATING OUT THE VICE MAYOR HERE BECAUSE AGAIN, IT THEN IT'S SETTING PRECEDENT THAT I'M GOING TO ADDRESS AS WE GET FURTHER INTO THESE RULES ABOUT THE OFFICE OF MAYOR AND VICE MAYOR AS THOUGH THAT SOMETHING SPECIAL APPLIES. THE VICE MAYOR IS A COUNSELOR. UM, SO I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND CHANGING THIS. THAT'S FINE. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE WE DIDN'T RUN INTO THE SAME PROBLEM, BUT, BUT YOU'RE OKAY WITH ADDING THE YES, I AM. OKAY. OKAY. ALRIGHT. WELL THEN WE WILL MOVE TO RULE TWO. YES, PLEASE. NOW THE FUN BEGINS, , AND JUST, YEAH, I MEAN, FOR A LITTLE BIT OF HEADS UP, THIS IS WHERE I HAD, UH, THE MAJORITY OF MY SUGGESTED CHANGES WERE HERE IN RULE TWO. AND THIS WAS BASED ON ONE, WHAT COUNCILOR FURMAN WAS SUGGESTING AT THE, THE MEETING. UM, AND THEN JUST WHAT WE HAVE JUST DEALT WITH. SO, UM, KURT, I THINK IS, IS THAT A COMPLETE THOUGHT? YOUR FIRST EDIT THERE? SO IN THE CASE OF THE MAYOR, WHAT, SO YEAH, SO ANYTIME THE, THE CASE OF THE MAYOR'S [00:15:01] ABSENCE. ABSENCE, YEAH. OKAY. SO I MEAN, WE CAN PUT THAT IN THERE AND MAKE, BUT IT'S, SO YOU GONNA CORRECT YOUR EDIT THERE IF, YEAH, IF THAT MAKES IT CLEAR TO EVERYONE, OH, THIS IS GOING SLOW. SO YOU'RE GONNA MAKE THAT CHANGE IN BOTH ONE AND TWO. SURE. OKAY. IS THAT HOW YOU SPELL THAT SENTENCE? OKAY. OKAY. MAYOR HERE. KURT, CAN I ASK A CLARIFYING QUESTION? IT REFERS TO THE CITY MANAGER'S OFFICE, SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT JUST ASSUMES, I MEAN, USUALLY YOU GUYS JUST SEND IT TO ME DIRECTLY, WHICH IS FINE, BUT DOES THAT MATTER? I MEAN, YEAH, I, THAT'S WHAT IT SAID AND SO THAT'S WHY I LEFT IT. BUT YEAH, I, I, IT COULD BE THE CITY MANAGER MANAGER AND THEN OBVIOUSLY WHEN I'M NOT HERE, I HAVE THINGS SET UP TO CAPTURE. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THEY MEANT ORIGINALLY WHEN THEY DRAFTED CITY MANAGER'S OFFICE. SO IF YOU'RE NOT THERE, THEN IT CAN GO TO CHRISTIE WHO COULD TELL, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE DEPUTIES. SO, SO I'M FINE WITH IT EITHER WAY. CLARIFYING, YOU KNOW. YEAH, I'M FINE WITH IT EITHER WAY INTO DETAILS TODAY. I JUST WANTED TO TELL. I'M FINE EITHER WAY, BUT, SO WHAT'S YOUR PLEASURE? CHANGE IT TO CITY MANAGER OR LEAVE IT, IT, IT READS CONSISTENT. IF WE JUST SAY CITY MANAGER, THAT'S HOW WE TALK ABOUT THE REST OF THE POSITION. AND I'M SEEING A FEW HEADS SHAKING, WHICH IS IN TWO AND THREE. CORRECT. SO GENERALLY THE COUNSELORS AND ELECTED OFFICIALS DEAL DIRECTLY WITH THE CITY MANAGER, NOT THE CITY MANAGER'S OFFICE. SO, ALRIGHT, SO WE'LL CHANGE IT TO CITY MANAGER IN ITEM C. MAYOR IN ITEM C. KURT, ARE YOU, OH, I'LL WAIT FOR YOU TO FINISH. YEAH. OKAY. IN C, THE CHANGE THAT YOU MADE IN C FIVE, WHICH I APPRECIATE, COULD YOU, I'M SORRY I HAD SOMETHING BEFORE THAT THOUGH. PLEASE. YEP. OKAY. SO WHEN WE GET TO C ONE, UH, COUNSELORS SHALL FULLY PARTICIPATE, UH, WHAT IS MEANT BY FULLY PARTICIPATE IN THIS CONTEXT? OR IT'S JUST SOUNDED GOOD. IT PROBABLY SOUNDED GOOD, BUT I THINK IT MEANS MORE THAN JUST PARTI MORE THAN JUST, YOU KNOW, SHOWING UP. YEAH, SHOWING UP WOULD BE PARTICIPATION, RIGHT. AND VOTING. SO FULLY PARTICIPATION WOULD BE DISCUSSING AND REASONING READING THE PACKET IN ADVANCE AND WELL, AND I THINK, YEAH. RIGHT. BUT IT'S, SO IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING. IT'S SO SUBJECTIVE. FULLY PARTICIPATE. IT'S MORE THAN JUST, I MEAN, YOU'RE PUTTING A REQUIREMENT OR THESE RULES PUT A REQUIREMENT FOR FULL PARTICIPATION WITHOUT SAYING WHAT? FULL PARTICIPATION IS. FULL PARTICIPATION IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW. YEAH. , I'M ALMOST HALF AWAKE. SO EVERYTHING BETTER THAN ASLEEP. , I NOTICED YOU LOOKED AT ME. . ANYBODY ELSE HAVE ANY FEELINGS ABOUT THE TERM FULLY PARTICIPATE? WE LEAVE IT AS IS OR CHANGE IT? WELL, SO I MEAN, THE RULES ALSO, I MEAN, ABOUT READING AND DISCUSSING, THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE IN THE RULES, RIGHT? AND SO THAT'S WHAT I THINK IT'S GETTING AT. BUT YOU'RE, I MEAN, YEAH, IT'S NOT DEFINED AND IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY, I MEAN, IF YOU WERE TO LEAD IT, COUNSELORS SHALL PARTICIPATE IN COUNCIL MEETING. WHY WOULDN'T THIS JUST SAY, COUNSELORS SHALL DEMONSTRATE RESPECT, KINDNESS, CONSIDERATION, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. IT SEEMS LIKE THERE ARE TWO THOUGHTS BEING ROLLED INTO ONE THAT DO NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A RELATIONSHIP HERE, FULL PARTICIPATION. AND THE OTHER SPEAKS TO RESPECT, KINDNESS, CONSIDERATION, COURTESY. IS THERE A CONCERN YOU HAVE COUNSELOR ABOUT? AGAIN, IT'S PUTTING A REQUIREMENT FOR ACTION WITHOUT SAYING WHAT THE REQUIREMENT IS. COUNSELORS SHALL FULLY PARTICIPATE AND IT DOESN'T SAY WHAT THAT IS. I WANT TO FULLY PARTICIPATE, BUT I WANNA KNOW THAT I AM FULLY PARTICIPATING BY UNDERSTANDING WHAT IS EXPECTED CAN, CAN WE, CAN WE MAKE THIS SORT OF GENERAL AND SAY COUNSELORS SHALL FULLY PARTICIPATE IN ALL, UM, ASPECTS [00:20:01] OF CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS AND OTHER PUBLIC. BECAUSE IF WE SPECIFY ANYTHING, AND THEN SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE THEY CHANGE WHAT IT MEANS TO FULLY PARTICIPATE, THEN WE'RE BACK HERE TRYING TO CHANGE THIS RULE AGAIN. AND IT JUST FEELS LIKE IF WE JUST SORT OF MENTION, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHY I'M SUGGESTING REMOVING THAT PART AND JUST LEAVING IT WITH COUNSELORS SHALL, UH, DEMONSTRATE RESPECT, KINDNESS, CONSIDERATION, AND COURTESY TO OTHERS. WELL THEN THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT WE WOULD SAY SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE, WE HAVE A COUNSELOR WHO JUST SITS HERE, DOESN'T READ ANYTHING, DOESN'T DISCUSS ANYTHING, DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING, JUST SITS THERE AND TAKES UP A SEAT INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY HELPING US FIGURE OUT WHAT THE POLICIES OUGHT TO BE OR HOW OUR BUDGET NEEDS TO BE, BE STRUCTURED OR WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE COMMUNITY. THEY JUST SIT THERE. I THINK THAT POINT HERE WAS TO SAY THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME KIND OF ACTION THAT COULD THEN BE TAKEN SHOULD THE PERSON NOT FULLY PARTICIPATE. NOW I'M LOOKING AT KURT BECAUSE IF THERE ISN'T, THEN WE HAVE A DIFFERENT ISSUE, RIGHT? SO TO THE VOTERS, THAT'S, I BELIEVE THAT'S THE ONLY TIME IN, IN THE RULES THAT PARTICIPATE IS USED IN THAT SENSE FOR COUNSELORS, UM, SAYING YOU SHOULD FULLY PARTICIPATE IN COUNCIL MEETINGS. IT DOES SAY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO READ THE PACKETS AND YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ATTEND. LIKE WE JUST WENT THROUGH THE ATTENDANCE, YOU KNOW, SECTION UP ABOVE. BUT I THINK IT'S GOT TWO THOUGHT. WELL, YEAH. SO IF, IF ANYTHING I WOULD GO WITH COUNSELOR ELLA'S AND MAKE IT TWO SEPARATE SECTIONS. IF WE DO THAT, THEN TWO, THAT, THAT WOULD BE, IT KIND OF MERGES INTO THREE THEN IF IT'S REALLY ABOUT KINDNESS AND CONSIDERATION AND THEN INSPIRING CONFIDENCE AND ALL THE REST, RIGHT? THAT IS NUMBER THREE. WHY NOT SAY MEANINGFULLY PARTICIPATE MEANINGFULLY PARTICIPATE. WHAT, WHAT IS THAT? YOU'RE, WELL, I MEAN, I'M GONNA HAVE, SO YOU'RE PUTTING A QUALIFIER ON AN UNDEFINED TERM, RIGHT? BUT I MEAN, I'M GONNA HAVE MORE TO SAY ABOUT, UH, YOU'RE, WE'RE GOING TO VERY PARTICIPATE , , WHAT'S THE EXCELLENT, HOW'S CROWD? YEAH, I DON'T, THE QUESTION IN MY MIND IS WHAT ARE, WHAT IS THIS, WHAT IS THIS GETTING TO? IS IT, IS IT FULLY PARTICIPATING IN CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS AND OTHER PUBLIC FORUMS? IS IT DEMONSTRATING RESPECT, KINDNESS, CONSIDERATION, AND COURTESY? THOSE ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS. IT WAS, AND THEY'RE BOTH COVERED BY, IT WAS BOTH TWO AND THREE. YEAH. YEAH. THERE IT WAS BOTH. AND ITEM TWO I WOULD ARGUE ACTUALLY BELONGS IN D CONDUCT AND PUBLIC MEETINGS. AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT 12 D BELONGS UP IN C. ALL RIGHT, WELL LET'S, LET'S STAY WITH THE FIRST ONE, . SO, YEAH, SO, UH, SO WHERE ELSE, WHERE ELSE IS PARTICIPATING COVERED IN OUR RULES? MAYBE THERE'S SOMETHING WE CAN DO THERE THAT BOLSTERS AND, AND TAKING OUT IT IN THIS SECTION WOULD BE OKAY, BUT YEAH, I PARTIC I'M NOT SURE THAT IT REALLY COMES UP ANYWHERE ELSE OTHER THAN THERE'S A SECTION ON, UH, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE READ THE PACKETS BEFOREHAND. I JUST DON'T THINK THAT IF YOU, WE CAN'T DEFINE IT, IT SHOULDN'T BE THERE. SO I'D, I'D LIKE TO AT LEAST KEEP, EVEN IF WE TOOK OUT FULLY, I'D LIKE TO AT LEAST KEEP THE PARTICIPATE IN CITY COUNCIL. LIKE YOU'D WANT, YOU'D WANT TO HAVE COUNSELORS THAT PARTICIPATE. MAYBE IT'S THE ATTORNEYS, BUT I AGREE WITH COUNSELOR FAF. THE MEANINGFUL SOUNDS PRETTY GOOD TO MY EARS, BUT , IT'S STILL SUBJECT IS FULLY, I LIKE MEANINGFULLY. SEE WE GOT THREE, THE THREE ATTORNEYS LIKE THAT SEE . I MEAN, IF I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ON THE SUBJECT MATTER, THEN DOES FULLY MEAN I HAVE TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING TO SAY? WELL, I THINK, I MEAN MEANINGFUL. IF I HAVE A MEANINGFUL CONTRIBUTION TO MAKE TO THE CONVERSATION, I'LL SPEAK UP. AND IF I DON'T, I'LL KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT. SO THE MEANING CAN KEEP GOING. THAT'S KIND OF HOW I VIEW I'M SUPPORTIVE OF MEANINGFUL AS WELL. YOU SUPPORT THAT. I CAN GO FOR IT. OKAY. MEANINGFUL. MEANINGFUL. THANK YOU, DEREK. DONE MY PART TODAY. YOU PARTICIPATE, BUT DOES THAT STAND ALONE? IS THAT, THAT SENTENCE IS TWO DIFFERENT THOUGHTS? MM-HMM . AND SHOULD THE FIRST ONE JUST BE ABOUT MEANINGFUL PARTICIPATION AND THE, IF WE NEED TO MOVE THE WORDS OF THE REST OF IT TO THREE, THAT OR SOMEWHERE ELSE IS FINE? YEAH, I THINK SO. YEP. THERE'S TWO. I I WOULD JUST LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT THE WORD WHILE IS USED SO THAT WHILE YOU ARE MEANINGFULLY PARTICIPATING, YOU WILL DEMONSTRATE RESPECT, KINDNESS, CONSIDERATION, COURTESY TO OTHERS. SO IT'S ABOUT THAT IS, THAT IS DESCRIBING THE KIND OF PARTICIPATION THAT YOU ARE MEANT TO DO, RIGHT? AS OPPOSED TO THE ONE BELOW IT, WHICH IS DIFFERENT AND IS AIMED AT THE PUBLIC AS OPPOSED TO AIMED AT THE COUNCIL ITSELF. YEAH, THAT'S GOOD. SORRY, I JUST YEP, THAT'S GOOD. I WANTED TO PARTICIPATE MEANINGFULLY . [00:25:04] OKAY. SO I NO COMMENT ON WHETHER THAT WAS A SUCCESS. , YOU AGREED. SO I THINK IT, IT FITS UNDER, I FEEL LIKE IT FITS UNDER TWO AS WELL. 'CAUSE YOU'RE GONNA STAY FOCUSED AND ACT EFFICIENTLY DURING PUBLIC MEETINGS WHILE DEMONSTRATING RESPECT, KINDNESS, CONSIDERATION, COURTESY TO OTHERS. IT COULD, IT COULD GO IN EITHER ONE. SO IT COULD, UM, IF I MIGHT, THE ONLY REASON I SAW A DIFFERENCE IS LIKE DURING PUBLIC MEETINGS ALSO IMPLIES THAT BEING RESPECTFUL OF OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME, ET CETERA, IS ALSO THE PUBLIC'S. IT'S NOT JUST THE TIME OF THE COUNCIL. UM, AND BY THE WAY, I DO LIKE THE ATTEMPT TO STAY FOCUSED , , NO ONE'S PERFECT. BUT THAT GOES TO MY POINT THOUGH ABOUT THAT ITEM TWO, WHEN, BECAUSE IT STARTS WITH AT ALL TIMES, SHOULD THAT ACTUALLY FALL UNDER CONDUCT IN PUBLIC MEETINGS? SHOULD ITEM TWO CC TWO BE MOVED TO BECOME D WHATEVER, BY ALL TIMES IS BROADER THAN PUBLIC MEETINGS. MM-HMM . YEAH, IT INCLUDES ON THE DAIS. OKAY. IN THE PUBLIC. OKAY. ANYWAY, YEAH. AND OTHER PUBLIC FORUMS. OKAY. MADAM MAYOR, MAY I ASK A QUESTION? UM, I DIDN'T, ALL OF THIS IS PROMISED ON AN ASSUMPTION THAT THE COUNSELORS ARE ATTENDING THE MEETINGS AND, UM, IN A PROCESS TO LET ME KNOW AND YOURSELVES KNOW IF SOMEONE CAN'T, AND I'M WONDERING IF, UM, YOU NEED TO BE EXPLICIT ABOUT THE EXPECTATION THAT COUNSELORS ATTEND THE MEETINGS AND IT, IF IN THE FUTURE YOU HAD SOMEONE THAT JUST WAS NEVER SHOWING UP AND THEY'RE STILL FOLLOWING THE RULES AND LETTING US KNOW THEY'RE NOT COMING, THEY'RE NOT COMING, THEY'RE NOT COMING. AND WHETHER THAT'S SOMETHING THE COUNCIL WOULD WANT TO ADDRESS AS A BODY, OR IF YOU WOULD JUST LEAVE IT UP TO THE VOTERS TO SEE THAT SOMEONE'S ATTENDANCE RECORD IS NOT SUBSTANTIAL AND MAKE THEIR CHOICE AT THE NEXT ELECTION. WELL, IN, IN A THREE, THERE'S A REFERENCE TO SECTION L, WHICH DEALS WITH, WITH FAILURES TO NOTIFY OR UNFORESEEN ABSENCES. AND HOW MANY OF THEM, I'M JUST FREEZING THE QUESTION ABOUT IF SOMEONE'S MISSED 10 MEETINGS IN FOUR HOURS, SOMETHING I THINK IT'S COVERED, UH, ELSEWHERE. SO A A SECOND FAILURE, IT SAYS TO NOTIFY NOT ACTUALLY ABOUT TO RETURN, IT SAYS A SECOND FAILURE TO NOTIFY. SO IF SOMEONE IS CONSISTENTLY NO, IT SAYS OR UNFORESEEN AB WELL, OKAY. I I, IT'S JUST, SINCE YOU'RE GETTING INTO THE NITTY GRITTY, I THOUGHT I WOULD JUST MENTION THAT I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT, AND IF YOU HAD AN EXPECTATION OF EACH OTHER THAT YOU ATTEND ALL THE COUNCIL MEETINGS TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY, YOU COULD STATE THAT, UM, OR NOT WORRY ABOUT IF SOMEONE JUST GETS ELECTED AND JUST NEVER COMES. UM, BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS TELLING ME THEY'RE NOT COMING, THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE IN VIOLATION OF THE RULES. RIGHT? RIGHT. MM-HMM . SO JUST A WORST CASE SCENARIO, I GUESS. WELL, MOST PEOPLE YOU ASSUME WILL COME TO THE MEETINGS IF THEY GET ELECTED. I'M LOOKING AT AL ENFORCEMENT OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE. AND THERE'S THIS, WE'LL GET, THERE'S A NEW SECTION ON, UH, COUNSELOR, GOOD STANDING STATUS. I MEAN, WE COULD PUT ABSENCES IN THAT SECTION, MAYOR. YES. BUT IT STILL NEEDS, SORRY BRIAN, I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN LOOKING TO GET RECOGNIZED, BUT TO ANNETTE'S EXACT POINT THAT THIS ONLY ADDRESSES NOTIF NOTIFICATION. SO THERE NEEDS TO BE STILL A REFERENCE IN HERE IN ORDER FOR THEN L TO APPLY TO THE ACTUAL ABSENCES. AND I SUPPORT THAT. SO YOUR POINT'S WELL TAKEN, ANNETTE, AND YOU KNOW, YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, DO WE WANNA DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT OR LEAVE IT TO THE WILL OF THE VOTERS? AND THE COUNSELOR'S TERM IS FOUR YEARS, AND IF SOMEBODY'S A PROBLEM ALREADY IN THE FIRST YEAR, I DON'T THINK IT'S RIGHT, THEY'LL HAVE TO WAIT THREE YEARS FOR THE VOTERS TO DECIDE SOMEBODY'S A DEADBEAT. SO THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT UP. OKAY. SO KURT, DO YOU KNOW WHERE WE ARE? YEAH. SO, AND, AND IT'S, YEAH. UH, YEAH. UM, CITY MANAGER'S CORRECT THAT IT'S NOT, I BELIEVE COVERED ELSEWHERE IN THE RULES THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO ATTEND YOUR COUNCIL MEETINGS AND MORE THAN ONE OR TWO EXCUSED ABSENCES, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING ALONG THOSE WILL RESULT MAY RESULT IN DISCIPLINE. UM, SO, AND IT WOULD MAKE SENSE, ESPECIALLY WITH THE HIGH, THE, THE HEADING [00:30:01] HERE. IT'S CITY COUNSELOR ATTENDANCE AT SCHEDULED CITY MEETINGS. AND THEN ALL IT IS IS ABOUT, UM, NOTIFICATION OF ABSENCES. SO I THINK IT REALLY NEEDS A SECTION ONE, UH, A ONE HERE THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, COUNSELORS WILL ATTEND ALL SCHEDULED PUBLIC MEETINGS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU COULD PUT THE WORD ALL BECAUSE WE ALLOW FOR, EXCEPT, UNLESS EXCUSED OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YEAH, I CAN WORK ON THAT. AND I MEAN, WE DON'T NEED TO NECESSARILY, THIS ISN'T SOMETHING WE WERE, I WAS NECESSARILY PLANNING ON ADOPTING, HAVING COUNCIL ADOPT ALL THESE RULES TODAY, BUT REGULARLY, REGULARLY SCHEDULED MIGHT BE WORDS THAT WE WANT TO USE IN THERE AS WELL. MM-HMM . MM-HMM . OKAY. SO WE'LL CHANGE A ONE. AND WHEN WE ARE GETTING READY TO ADOPT THEM, YOU'LL BRING US A CLEAN VERSION WITH THESE CHANGES. COUNCIL MEETINGS, UNLESS EXCUSED. AND IS THAT WHAT WE USE? EXCUSE NOTIFY. YEAH. BUT I, I THOUGHT THE REAL ISSUE HERE IS THAT THERE'S TOO MANY EXCUSES AND SO THEY ALWAYS LET YOU KNOW THEY'RE NOT GONNA BE HERE, BUT THEN THEY'RE NEVER HERE. RIGHT? SO IT'S NOT THAT THEY VIOLATED THE, THE, THE LETTING, YOU KNOW, PART, THEY VIOLATED THE EVER SHOWING UP PART. RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHAT HE'S GONNA ADD. SO HE'S ADDRESSING THAT'S WHAT HE'S GONNA ADD. YEAH. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THIS, THIS ISN'T ABOUT EXCUSED ABSENCE. THIS IS ABOUT TOO MANY ABSENCES. SO IS THERE A SECTION FIVE THAT NOW MIGHT SPEAK TO TOO MANY EXCUSED ABSENCES? SO, SO THAT'S WHERE WE NEED A NUMBER THEN I THINK FROM COUNCIL YOU NEED IT'S MORE THAN TWO. OR IS IT THE DISCRETION OR IS IT THE DISCRETION OF THE MAYOR, WHETHER IT'S EXCUSED OR NOT? I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE RULES UNEXCUSED. NO, IT'S EXCUSED IF YOU NOTIFY. RIGHT? THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S THE, THAT YEAH, THAT'S THE, THE, THE SINGLE EXCUSE. LET'S SEE, DEFINITION OF EXCUSED. SO I WONDER IF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO TALK TO HERE IS AT SOME POINT, FOR WHATEVER REASON, AND THEY COULD BE LEGITIMATE, SOMEONE GOT REALLY ILL OR, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE TO GO TAKE CARE OF A FAMILY MEMBER OR WHATEVER IT DOES. I MEAN, IT COULD BE LEGITIMATE. WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT THEY JUST DECIDED THEY DIDN'T WANNA SHOW UP, THEY JUST WANTED TO GET A COUNCIL SEAT. BUT FOR WHATEVER THE REASON IS, YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE FULFILLING THE DUTIES OF A COUNSELOR AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD BE ASKED TO STEP DOWN FROM THE COUNSELOR'S POSITION TO ALLOW SOMEONE WHO IS WILLING TO STEP UP OR ABLE TO STEP UP AND, AND DO THE WORK. 'CAUSE THERE'S A WILLINGNESS AND THEN THERE'S AN ABLENESS. SO I THINK IT'S REALLY HARD HERE TO TRY AND SEPARATE OUT THE TWO, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SEPARATE OUT THE TWO. SO IF SOMEONE IS NOT ABLE TO SERVE, AND WE TALK ABOUT THEM NOT BEING ABLE TO SERVE, AT LEAST WITH THE MAYOR AND WHATEVER, DOES THAT TIE INTO THE EXCUSES? THEY'RE, THEY'RE, THEY WANT TO STAY ON COUNCIL, BUT WE CAN SAY, WOW, YOU'RE GONNA BE OUT FOR SIX MONTHS, RIGHT? ARE YOU GONNA BE OUT FOR EIGHT MONTHS? OR YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG YOU'RE GONNA BE OUT VERSUS, I, I ALWAYS TELL YOU, I'M NOT GONNA BE THERE ON A TUESDAY AND YOU KNOW, I'M, I'M, I'M PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF BEING THERE. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW WE SEPARATE THOSE, THOSE OUT. THAT WILLINGNESS VERSUS THE ABLENESS. IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE SOMETHING IN THERE ABOUT A TEMPORARY LEAVE OF ABSENCE? LET'S SUPPOSE SOMEBODY IS ILL, AND, YOU KNOW, OKAY, AGAIN, OUT OF A FOUR YEAR TERM, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE FOUR MONTHS, SIX MONTHS OR SOMETHING IN WHICH THEY'RE UNABLE TO PARTICIPATE DUE TO SOMETHING CATASTROPHIC IN THEIR LIFE. RIGHT. UM, BUT THAT THERE'S EVERY FORESEEABLE, UH, EXPECTATION THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO RESUME. SO I, I WOULDN'T WANT TO HAVE THAT WORK AGAINST SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW? SO I MEAN, IS THERE A, A LEAVE OF ABSENCE IF THERE'S GONNA BE MORE THAN THREE UNEXCUSED ABSENCES, YOU KNOW, MUST SEEK A LEAVE OF ABSENCE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT? UH, IT, I MEAN, I JUST THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME ACCOMMODATION AND IT HAS, IT HAS HAPPENED MM-HMM . IT HAS HAPPENED WHERE A COUNSELOR OR A FAMILY MEMBER IN THE PAST HAS BEEN ILL. AND EVENTUALLY THE COUNSELOR RESIGNED. BUT IT TOOK A PERIOD OF TIME, I GUESS, TO UNDERSTAND WHETHER THE ILLNESS WAS GONNA BE SUCH THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE. RIGHT. SO MAY AND COUNCIL, INSTEAD OF, AND I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM CITY MANAGER AS WELL, BUT INSTEAD OF TRYING TO DEFINE EVERY TIME IT WOULD BE EXCUSED OR NOT, I WOULD JUST LEAVE IT IN THE MAYOR OR IN THE VICE MAYOR'S DISCRETION AS WHETHER IT WAS AN EXCUSED. I MEAN, VACATIONS ARE GENERALLY ALWAYS EXCUSED. ILLNESSES ARE CERTAINLY EXCUSED. UM, YOU KNOW, A GENERAL ONE, IF IT'S GONNA BE SOMETHING EXTENDED, THEN THERE'D HAVE TO BE A DISCUSSION FROM THE MAYOR. AND, UM, I'M GOING TO JUST TO BE FORWAR AND GENERALLY SPEAK AGAINST THINGS THAT CONCENTRATE, [00:35:01] UH, POWERS OF DISCRETION IN ONE OFFICE. BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF HAVING RULES OF PROCEDURE THAT THEY APPLY ACROSS THE BOARD TO THE BODY IN GENERAL. AND I DON'T THINK THAT WHEN AN ELECTION IS AT HAND, THAT THE PUBLIC IS NECESSARILY THINKING ABOUT, WELL, IS THIS POTENTIAL MAYORAL CANDIDATE? SOMEBODY IS GONNA BE TOO LOOSE WITH EXCUSES OF ABSENCE OR NOT. IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE PUBLIC SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE THINKING ABOUT. BUT I THINK OUR RULES OF PROCEDURE NEED TO SPEAK OF THIS TO ALL OF US EQUALLY. AND I DON'T, I, FOR ME, AS I SAID, I'LL BE SPEAKING REPEATEDLY TODAY AGAINST CONCENTRATING, UH, UH, CERTAIN THINGS THAT SHOULD APPLY TO ALL OF US IN ONE, IN ONE AREA, IN ONE OFFICE. SO THEN I, I FEEL LIKE THE ONLY WAY TO, TO DO THAT, COUNCILOR KINSELLA, WOULD BE TO JUST PICK A NUMBER. NOW YOU GET FIVE EXCUSED ABSENCES OF A YEAR OR TWO OR ONE. AND IF YOU GO OVER THAT FOR WHATEVER REASON, OR EXCUSE ME OR NOT, YOU JUST GET FIVE ABSENCES, WHATEVER THE REASON, VACATION SICK OR FAMILY MEMBER, AND THEN YOU GO OVER FIVE, THEN YOU COULD BE, YOU CAN BE CENSURED BY COUNSEL OR THERE'S AN APPEAL TO THE BODY ON DECISIONS LIKE THAT. I, WHERE IF THE MAYOR DOESN'T, DOESN'T, UH, APPROVE AN EXCUSED ABSENCE, THEN SOMEBODY COULD APPEAL IT TO THE BODY FOR A FINAL DECISION. AND, AND MY, MY ONLY CONCERN WITH THAT IS, AND THAT'S THE, THE MAYOR'S DECISION, YOU KNOW, PROCEDURAL DECISION CAN ALMOST ALWAYS BE APPEALED TO THE BODY ANYWAY. BUT IN THIS CASE, YOU'D PROBABLY BE DEALING WITH SOMETHING SENSITIVE, AN ILLNESS, UM, OF A FAMILY MEMBER, THEIR OWN ILLNESS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. MAYBE IF THEY'RE, IF THAT'S WHY THEY'RE MISSING, IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHY I'D LEAVE IT IN JUST A DISCRETION OF THE MAYOR TO DECIDE WHETHER IT'S AN EXCUSED ABSENCE OR NOT. WOULD A DISCUSSION ABOUT SOME PERSONAL ISSUES REGARDING A COUNSELOR BE ALLOWED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION? IS THERE AN YEAH. YES. OKAY. SO WE COULD, WE DON'T HAVE TO VIOLATE SOMEBODY'S PRIVACY PUBLICLY. ALL RIGHT. MY OTHER JOB. WHERE DOES, YEAH, I WAS JUST GONNA ASK THAT QUESTION. WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US? LET'S HEAR CITY MANAGER'S THOUGHT FIRST. OH, I WAS GOING TO SUGGEST THAT YOU COULD ALSO JUST IN THE, UM, ETHICAL CONDUCT SECTION, JUST MAKE A STATEMENT THAT I WILL, UM, MAKE A GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO ATTEND ALL CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS OR PUBLIC MEETINGS OR WHATEVER. SO IT'S JUST UP THERE. AND THEN WE DO MAKE ACCOMMODATIONS, YOU KNOW, FOR REMOTE ATTENDANCE, ALL KINDS OF THINGS FOR PEOPLE TO TRY TO ATTEND ALL THE MEETINGS. UM, YEAH, WE COULD ADD A NEW SECTION ABOUT EXPECTATIONS OF ATTENDANCE. WELL, RIGHT. ALL COUNSELORS ARE EXPECTED TO ATTEND MEETINGS IF THEY, THAT IS SECTION A . YEAH, THAT'S WHERE WE GO. THE CONTENT. ANOTHER NUMBER. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. WHICH WE DID. SO I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF A, A NUMBER. YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY IT'S THE SAME THING. THE PROBLEM WITH PUTTING IN A NUMBER IS, YOU KNOW, DOES THAT COUNT TUESDAYS AND WEDNESDAYS? AND SO WHAT IF WE DON'T HAVE A WEDNESDAY, THEN I, IT'S JUST GETTING INTO THE NITTY GRITTY OF ATTENDING IS DIFFERENT, UM, THAN JUST SORT OF GENERALLY SAYING IF THERE'S AN ISSUE, UM, MAYBE, MAYBE IT'S IN AN EXEC SESSION. THE INDIVIDUAL COUNSELOR CAN SPEAK TO ALL THE COUNSELORS IN AN EXEC SESSION AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY WILL BE NOT ABLE TO ATTEND, UM, OR ATTEND IN PERSON OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE. AND THEN THE DECISION IS MADE, YOU KNOW, IN AN, AN EXECUTIVE SESSION AND JUST SORT OF GENERALLY SET OUT WHERE THAT, YOU KNOW, COUNSELOR X, YOU KNOW, HAS WHATEVER HAPPENING, HAS SOMETHING HAPPENING OR WHATEVER. I'M SURE YOU KNOW, COUNSELOR KINSELLA WOULD COME UP WITH, YOU KNOW, A GOOD MOTION. BUT, UM, JUST TO SAY BASICALLY AS PART OF THE EXEC SESSION, THIS IS HAPPENING AND THEN THE PUBLIC IS AWARE THAT IT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED WITH ALL OF COUNSEL. UM, IT'S A PERSONAL MATTER AND THAT, YOU KNOW, COUNSEL HAS AGREED TO GO AHEAD AND LET THIS PERSON NOT BE IN ATTENDANCE. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I'M SURE ALL OF THAT SO WE CAN WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT? SO THERE I LIKE THAT. I'D LIKE TO SEE A WORDING. WELL, WE'LL HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY WHEN THEY'RE BROUGHT BACK TO US. WELL, HE'S WORKING ON IT NOW, I THINK. I THINK WE STILL JUST NEED SOME TRIGGER OF WHEN IT'S GONNA GO TO ALL THE COUNCIL. IF IT'S, IF IT'S NOT LEFT UP TO THE DISCRETION OF THE MAYOR, VICE MAYOR, WHAT'S THE TRIGGER THAT IT COMES TO COUNCIL? THEY REQUEST IT. THEY REQUEST [00:40:01] IT. WELL, THE, THE COUNSELOR REQUESTS IF THEY'RE GONNA BE ABSENT, IF THE COUNSELOR DOESN'T REQUEST IT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DELINQUENT COUNSELORS. YEAH. WHO GETS, WHAT'S THE TRIGGER FOR? SO WE HAVE A TRIGGER FOR UNEXCUSED. YOU'RE, IT'S, IT'S THE EXCUSED ABSENCES. NOW WE, WELL WE, SO YOU ADDED THE SECOND IN SECTION FOUR. AGAIN, I THINK THE SHALL UP THERE IS COUNCILS ARE EXPECTED TO ATTEND. I THINK THE SHALL IS THE, IS AN ISSUE. YEAH. EXPECTED. YEAH. WELL THEN IT'S NOT A VIOL. IF IT'S JUST AN EXPECTATION, IT'S NOT A VIOLATION. WELL WE'RE GETTING INTO THAT FURTHER DOWN. BUT THE SHALL IS GONNA CREATE A PROBLEM FURTHER DOWN. WELL, SO THAT'S WHY I ORIGINALLY HAD THE, UNLESS EXCUSED BY THE MAYOR. BUT THAT'S, THOSE ARE GENERALLY MISSING A MEETING. YOU NOTIFY THE MAYOR. YEAH. AND THE CITY MANAGER. YOU MISSING A MEETING. THIS IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION. THIS IS A PROLONGED ABSENCE. OR PERHAPS THE LANGUAGE THAT'S MORE AROUND IF A PATTERN OF UNEXCUSED ABSENCES SHALL BE ADDRESSED BY THE COUNCIL. AND THEN EXECUTIVE SESSION. JUST THE PLAIN. IS THERE A WAY TO MAKE THIS EVEN A LITTLE BIT LARGER STILL ? YES. THANK YOU. EXCELLENT. THANK YOU. WE'LL MISS SOME COMMENTS ON THE SIDE, BUT THEY'RE NOT SUPER IMPORTANT. SO JUST FOR CLARITY, I THINK WHAT THE CITY MANAGER JUST SUGGESTED IS ACTUALLY PROBABLY WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO GO. SO, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT AN UNEXCUSED ABSENCE IS, WE DON'T HAVE A DEFINITION OF THAT EITHER, UNLESS YOU'RE WRITING ONE. BECAUSE AS SOMEBODY BROUGHT UP BEFORE, YOU COULD JUST KEEP SAYING, I'M NOT GONNA BE ATTENDING THIS MEETING AND YOU'D FULFILL WHAT IS CURRENTLY THERE AS IT EXCUSED. THAT'S POINT. YEAH. A PATTERN OF FREQUENCY. AGAIN, THIS IS ONLY SPEAKING TO NOTIFICATION ITEM FOUR. IT'S NOT SPEAKING TO ABSENCES. NO, IT'S HERE. WELL, WE'LL PUT A PATTERN OF ABSENCES. HOW DO YOU SPELL ABSENCES THEN? YOU NEED A COMMA BEFORE THE OR TO SEPARATE THEM IS PATTERN, RIGHT? IS IT FREQUENCY, IS IT NUMBER? I WAS JUST TRYING TO THINK OF HOW WE LOOK AT EMPLOYEE PERFORMANCE IN TERMS OF ABSENTEEISM. AND USUALLY IT COMES DOWN TO WHAT THE PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR IS. SO, WELL, I THINK YOU HAVE THE ESSENCE OF IT, KURT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORDSMITH IT. OKAY. RIGHT THIS SECOND. SURE. I'LL SPEND SOME MORE THOUGHT ON IT AND SEE IF I CAN GET IT. COUNCILLOR ELLI, YOU BROUGHT UP A LOT OF THIS. ANY ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS BEFORE WE MOVE ON OR IS SO FORWARD ADDRESS NOW? THE, THE NOTIFICATION, BUT ALSO A PATTERN OF ABSENCES. MM-HMM . BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARILY DEFINED. IT WOULD BE OPEN AND THAT'S WHEN COUNCIL COULD DO AN EXECUTIVE SESSION. OKAY. UM, YEAH. OKAY. SO WE'RE READY TO GO BACK TO C. YES. WHAT'S YOUR NEXT CHANGE, KATHY? UM, WELL I THINK WE ADDRESSED, UM, I WOULD WANT THOUGHT ABOUT MOVING TWO DOWN INTO D BUT I'VE BASED ON COMMENTS BEFORE. I'M, I'M WITHDRAWING THAT. OKAY. BUT D 12, WELL LET'S GO TO C FIVE. OKAY. OKAY. 'CAUSE THAT'S A NEW SECTION. SO THESE TWO ARE FROM THE INVESTIGATION, STACEY GABRIEL'S RECOMMENDATIONS. SO SHOULDN'T IT BE COUNSELORS MUST NOTIFY AND CAN SOMEBODY EXPOUND UPON THE, AT LEAST 10 DAYS? LIKE WHAT IS, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THAT? 10 DAYS? WHY? WELL, EVEN THAT, I MEAN, I DO HAVE, AND I UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS HERE, UM, BUT I DO THINK THAT THIS RISKS TREADING ON SOMEBODY'S RIGHT TO REQUEST A DO A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST. YOU KNOW, I, THAT'S A BAR. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S NECESSARY TO NOTIFY THE CITY MANAGER BEFORE. WHAT IF I WANTED TO, JUST AN EXAMPLE. WHAT IF MY RECORDS REQUEST HAD TO DO WITH ACTIONS OF THE CITY MANAGER? YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO NOTIFY THE CITY MANAGER FIRST THAT I'M MAKING A RECORDS REQUEST ABOUT THEIR ACTIONS BEFORE I HAVE THE INFORMATION [00:45:01] I NEED TO FORMULATE WHAT I MIGHT, WHAT MY QUESTION MIGHT BE. I, I JUST, I THINK WE'RE TREADING ON SOMEBODY'S RIGHT HERE. I UNDERSTAND THERE WAS A PATTERN OF ABUSE BEFORE THAT WE WANNA ADDRESS. AND I DO WANNA ADDRESS THAT, BUT I, I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS IS THE WAY TO DO THIS. WELL, I WOULD THINK YOU WOULD WANNA TALK TO THE CITY MANAGER BEF ABOUT HIS OR HER ACTIONS BEFORE YOU REQUESTED THE INFORMATION. WOULD YOU? I UNDERSTAND. I WAS JUST USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE. YEAH. AGAIN, IT'S GENERALLY, I JUST DON'T KNOW THAT, I MEAN, SOMEBODY DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST AND I DON'T WANT TO TREAD ON THEIR RIGHT AS A CITIZEN TO DO THAT JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE ALSO A COUNSELOR. UM, AND AS I SAID, I ALSO WANT TO ADDRESS THE PATTERN OF ABUSE THAT DID WAS PRESENT PREVIOUSLY. BUT I, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO BALANCE THOSE THINGS, WHICH IS, I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO TRY TO ATTEMPT TO DO HERE. WAS THIS A, EXCUSE ME FOR A SEC. IS THIS A SUGGESTION, DIRECT SUGGESTION FROM THE INVESTIGATOR? YES. AND 10 DAYS WAS HER SUGGESTION? I DON'T RECALL. YES. OKAY. BRIAN, THIS STILL COMES BACK TO ONE COUNSELOR ESSENTIALLY ACTING INDEPENDENTLY TO TRY TO INVESTIGATE SOMETHING GOING ON IN THE CITY. AND I THOUGHT WE'VE SAID THAT'S NOT HOW WE WANT TO OPERATE. THAT IT SHOULD BE A MAJORITY OF THE COUNCIL HAVING HAD AN OPPORTUNITY IN TOTAL TO CONFER AND CONSIDER WHETHER THAT'S NEEDED BEFORE WE'D EVEN GET TO THIS POINT, CORRECT OR NO? UM, YES, BUT AGAIN, THERE'S A BALANCE HERE. UH, BECAUSE FOR AN EXAMPLE, I REQUESTED A DOCUMENT THAT HAD BEEN SENT TO COUNSEL, UM, FOR A PRINTED VERSION OF IT FOR SOMETHING THAT WE WERE DEALING WITH, RIGHT? SO, BUT THAT REQUEST FOR THAT DOCUMENT, AND I UNDERSTAND WHY WAS TREATED AS A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST, ALRIGHT? TO BE ABLE TO GET THAT 10 DAYS. AND WE HAD A LIMITED TIME. I MEAN, MY ABILITY TO GET THAT DOCUMENT JUST EVEN AS A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC WAS IMPEDED. IT WASN'T TIMING WAS THERE THAT I DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE. I'M TRYING TO USE AN EXAMPLE TO SPEAK TO SOMETHING UNFORESEEN THAT MIGHT COME UP. I, I I JUST, I JUST DON'T THINK THIS STRIKES WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE. I THINK THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES HERE THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING MM-HMM . AND THEY NEED TO BE DISENTANGLED IF WE WANNA TALK ABOUT THEM. SO IN THE ONE CASE WHERE WE'RE, WE'RE REALLY TALKING TO A SPECIFIC ACTION AGAINST ANOTHER EMPLOYEE OR WHATEVER, WE HAD SAID THAT WE REALLY, AS, AS A BODY SHOULD HAVE HAD SOME KIND OF AN EXEC SESSION TO TALK ABOUT THAT AS COUNCIL AND THEN DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT WE WANTED TO MOVE FORWARD IN SOME DIRECTION, WHATEVER THAT DIRECTION WOULD BE. THAT WOULD MEAN THAT, THAT THAT COUNCIL AS A BODY WOULD THEN HAVE ASKED FOR THE PUBLIC RECORDS, NOT AN INDIVIDUAL COUNSELOR ASKING FOR THOSE RECORDS IN THE EXEC SESSION. SO THAT'S ONE THING. AND THEN THERE'S THE OTHER THING ABOUT, UM, WHY, WHEN, WHEN IS A COUNSELOR GET TO BE TREATED LIKE A RESIDENT INSTEAD OF AS A COUNSELOR. 'CAUSE WE'RE ALSO RESIDENTS. AND SO IF I'M A COUNSELOR, THIS ALMOST IMPLIES THAT IF I WANTED TO KNOW HOW MANY SWIMMING POLES, UM, WE'VE, UH, ISSUED PERMITS FOR SO THAT I CAN SEE WHETHER OR NOT WE'VE GOT MORE HO MORE, UH, SDRS GETTING SWIMMING POOLS AND RESIDENCES, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE. SORRY I'M JUST MAKING IT UP. BUT, UM, EXCEPT THE SWIMMING POOLS, WHICH I DID ASK FOR AT ONE POINT. THAT'S WHY JOE IS LAUGHING BACK THERE. UM, IF, IF YOU, IF I DID THAT, DO I HAVE TO NOW WAIT 10 DAYS BEFORE I GET THAT INFORMATION WHEN I ACTUALLY HAD WANTED TO KNOW IT JUST BEFORE AN ARIZONA WATER PRESENTATION TO SORT OF LOOK AT HOW MUCH WATER IS BEING USED, YOU KNOW, IN THE CITY AND HAS THAT INCREASED? SO IS IS, THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. IT ISN'T ABOUT THE CITY AND I WAS REALLY ASKING ALMOST AS A RESIDENT, I COULD HAVE GONE AND DONE MY THREE MINUTES IN FRONT. RIGHT? SO I THINK WE HAVE TO SEPARATE THIS OUT SOMEHOW. WELL, THIS RELATES ONLY TO THE CITY OR ITS ANY OF ITS CURRENT OR FORMER EMPLOYEES, THE 10 DAYS. UM, AND THEN IT ALSO SAYS, OH, RELATING TO PERSONNEL. SO RELATING TO THE CITY OR ANY OF ITS CURRENT OR FORMER OR SO IT'S ANYTHING WITHIN THE CITY BECOMES THAT, THAT CONFUSING THING. 'CAUSE EVERYTHING IS INSIDE THE CITY. CAN I JUST ASK A CLARIFYING QUESTION ON THAT? COUNSELOR DUNN? SO IN THAT EXAMPLE THAT YOU CONCOCTED AND, AND USED AS TRUTH AT YOU, [00:50:01] UH, WHY WOULDN'T YOU HAVE DONE THAT? AS, AS THE COUNSELOR, IF YOU'RE PREPARING FOR A MEETING WITH ARIZONA WATER. WHY IS THAT NOT AN APPROPRIATE THING TO BE ASKING CITY STAFF ABOUT? ANNETTE? EXCUSE ME. I UNDERSTAND. THANK YOU MAYOR. UM, SO KIND OF BACK TO COUNSELOR DUNN'S POINT. THERE'S MULTIPLE THINGS I THINK TIED UP IN THIS. SO YOU COULD HAVE, UM, SOMETHING SPECIFIC TO PERSONNEL MATTERS. YOU KNOW, SHE'LL GO THROUGH THE CITY ATTORNEY AND THE HUMAN RESOURCES MANAGER, WHATEVER, UM, AND HANDLE THROUGH EXECUTIVE SESSION. BUT I FEEL LIKE IF THE COUNSELOR WANTS TO MAKE A REGULAR PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST, YOU'RE TREATED THE SAME AS ANY OTHER MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC AND YOU GO INTO THE QUEUE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE AND WE HANDLE IT, YOU KNOW, LIKE NO VIP TREATMENT I GUESS. UM, BUT WHEN IT'S MATTERS RELATED TO YOUR UPCOMING MEETINGS AND PREPARATION FOR AGENDIZED ITEMS, THAT SHOULD NOT BE A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST. THAT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, YOUR PREPARATION, UH, FOR THOSE MEETINGS AND ASKING QUESTIONS THAT COME THROUGH ME AND THE APPROPRIATE STAFF WHEN WE JUST TAKE CARE OF THAT. WE DON'T CALL IT A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST. SO THERE MIGHT BE THREE DIFFERENT THINGS WRAPPED UP IN HERE. ONE IS WHEN IT'S , WHO, WHO MAKES THE DECISION ON JOANNE, DO YOU MAKE THE DECISION ON WHETHER IT IS A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST? SO I THINK THE COUNSELOR HIMSELF WAS THE ONE MAKING THE DECISION. AND 'CAUSE YOU KNEW THESE WEREN'T RELATED UPCOMING AGENDA ITEMS OR ANYTHING COMING BEFORE COUNCIL. SO THERE WASN'T INFORMATION. SO UNDER ITEM G'S, YOUR IS COUNSELOR'S CONDUCT WAS STAFF, AND THAT'S WHERE IT'S, YOU CAN REQUEST INFORMATION FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY OR THE CITY MANAGER ON IT, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T REALLY DEFINE BUT ON INFORMATION. SO THIS WASN'T INFORMATION THAT WE WAS REQUESTING UNDER THAT METHOD, IT WAS PUTTING IN PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS. SO I THINK ONE, ONE THOUGHT ON THIS IS WHAT IF INSTEAD OF THE 10 DAY LIMIT AND ALL THE OTHER LIMITS, WHAT IF IT WAS JUST, IF ANY COUNSELOR PUTS IN A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST, WE WILL JUST AUTOMATICALLY SEND THE COPY TO ALL THE OTHER COUNSELORS. SO JUST COUNSEL'S AWARE OF IT AND COUNCIL CAN TAKE ACTION IF I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THAT. YEAH, THIS IS, OR ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCY. SO HERE I AM, I HAPPEN TO BE A COUNSELOR, BUT I'M A CITIZEN TO COUNCILOR DUNS POINT, UM, AND I WANNA MAKE A REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FROM YAVAPAI COUNTY. RIGHT NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, ALL OF YOU ARE NOTIFIED OF SOME REQUEST JUST BECAUSE I ALSO HAPPEN TO BE A COUNSELOR THAT I'M MAKING OF YAVAPAI COUNTY. SO I, THIS JUST SEEMS LIKE TOO HIGH OF THIS. THIS IS NOT AN APPROPRIATE THRESHOLD. IF YOU MADE A REQUEST TO YAVAPAI COUNTY, IT WOULDN'T FALL UNDER THESE RULES, IT SAYS, OR ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCY, YOU KNOW, BUT RELATED TO THIS CITY. SO IT HAVE TO BE A REQUEST LIKE NO YAVAPAI COUNTY RECORDS WE HAVE. SO THAT, THAT STEMS FROM THE WHOLE NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT IT SAYS. KURT . IS IT CITY? ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCY RELATED OR ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCY RELATING TO THE CITY. SO IF YOU'RE JUST GETTING A YAVAPAI COUNTY RECORDS REQUEST THAT GOES TO YAVAPAI COUNTY, WE WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT. OKAY. UH, DEREK, THIS FEELS TO ME A LITTLE BIT LIKE A SITUATION OF BAD FACTS. MAKE BAD LAW SAY THAT I COULDN'T HEAR YOU BAD, BAD FACTS MAKE BAD LAW. UM, HAS THIS EVER BEEN AN ISSUE UNDER ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE? THIS WAS, THIS WAS OUR RECENT, ONE OF OUR RECENT ISSUES. NO, I KNOW, I KNOW. BUT PRIOR TO THAT, PRIOR TO THAT, HAS THIS EVER BEEN BUT THE PROBLEM WHAT RIGHT. PRIOR TO THAT? NO, NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF, BUT THIS IS, IT'S LIKE THE CANON TO SWAT THE FLY. YOU KNOW, THE PROBLEM WAS A PATTERN OF, UH, HARASSMENT OF THE, OF STAFF IN A WAY THROUGH THE MISUSE OF PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS. RIGHT. THE PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST IN AND OF ITSELF ISN'T AN ISSUE. RIGHT. IT WAS THE . SO I THINK WE'RE TRYING TO HIT THE WRONG THING HERE BECAUSE I, GO AHEAD DEREK. I JUST, I FEEL LIKE WHY? OKAY. SO NO, I DON'T IF, IF SAY SOMEBODY MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC COMES TO ME AND ASKS ME A QUESTION AND I THINK, OKAY, IS THERE ANYTHING TO THIS, MAYBE I WANNA DO A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST TO LOOK AT IT BEFORE I GO TO COUNCIL AND SAY, HEY GUYS, WE NEED TO FOLLOW UP ON THIS. I MEAN, SIMPLY DOING THE REQUEST TO GET THE INFORMATION. I DON'T, I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO RUN TO THE CITY MANAGER, TO THE CITY ATTORNEY OR COUNCIL TO SAY IT. JUST, I CAN GET IT. I CAN LOOK AT IT. OBVIOUSLY IF WE HAVE A REPEAT SITUATION WHERE SOMEBODY IS OVERWHELMING STAFF WITH, YOU KNOW, INCESSANT PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS, I DO FEEL LIKE WE CAN ADDRESS THAT DIFFERENTLY THAN JUST A, I MEAN, JUST SAY THAT. DON'T MAKE EXCESSIVE PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS. CAN, CAN YOU GIMME AN EXAMPLE OF WHY, OF SOMETHING THAT, WHY WOULD YOU NOT GO TO THE CITY MANAGER? SOME CAME TO YOU AND SAID SOMETHING. WHY WOULD YOU NOT GO [00:55:01] TO ONE OF OUR APPOINTEES AND ASK THE QUESTION, OKAY, WHAT IF THE COMPLAIN DOING A PUBLIC RECORDS ACT, WHAT IF THE COMPLAINT, UH, KURT AND ANNETTE, JUST AN EXAMPLE, WHAT IF THE COMPLAINT IS ABOUT ONE OF THEM? RIGHT? WHY CAN'T I THEN, THEN THERE'S ANOTHER ONE OF THEM TO GO TO. WE HAVE TWO . OKAY. WHAT IF COMPLAINTS ABOUT BOTH HAVE TO, I MEAN, I JUST DUNNO WHY WE WOULD HAMSTRING OURSELVES GIVEN THAT THIS WAS, WE'RE WE'RE TRYING TO ENCOURAGE DIALOGUE WITH OUR APPOINTEES. NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT. I UNDERSTAND THAT. THIS JUST FEELS LIKE A ONE OFF SITUATION TO ME THAT I THINK, UH, LIKE, LIKE KATHY SAID, WE DON'T NEED A SLEDGEHAMMER TO KILL A FLY. MM-HMM . YOU KNOW, LET'S HAVE SOMETHING WHERE WE ASK, I MEAN, ASK COUNSELORS TO EXERCISE DISCRETION WHEN MAKING PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS THAT THEY'RE NOT OVERWHELMING THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE THAT THEY'RE OKAY. BRIAN DOESN'T LIKE THAT. BUT I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW. IT WAS LEFT, IT WAS PREVIOUSLY LEFT TO DISCRETION AND DISCRETION WAS NOT EXERCISED AND HENCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT UNFORTUNATELY. SO, BUT IT HAD TO DO WITH PERSONNEL ISSUES. WAIT, LET'S LET, LET'S, SORRY. LET MELISSA SPEAK FIRST. SORRY. UM, SO I THINK WE CAN MAKE THIS SIMPLER DEPENDING ON HOW WE WANNA THINK ABOUT IT. THAT IT'S JUST COUNSELORS, YOU KNOW, SHOULD REFRAIN FROM ISSUING, UH, PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS RELATING TO THE CITY OR ANY OF ITS CURRENT AND FORMER OR EMPLOYEES WITHOUT HAVING FIRST CONSULTED WITH COUNSEL. SO THAT IT BASICALLY, YOU CAN ISSUE THIS REQUEST, BUT YOU HAVE TO, WE ALL HAVE TO BE IN ON WHY YOU THINK THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM. AND WE MAY COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT'S NOT A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST, BUT I, I DON'T KNOW, JUST GOING TO THE CITY MANAGER OR THE CITY ATTORNEY. THE IDEA WAS IF THERE WAS AN ISSUE AND HE THOUGHT THERE WAS AN ISSUE, RIGHT? IN THIS CASE WITH EMPLOYEES OR FORMER EMPLOYEES, WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THAT CONVERSATION. ESPECIALLY BECAUSE AT SOME LEVEL, AT LEAST SOME OF THOSE EMPLOYEES REPORT TO COUNCIL. AND SO COUNCIL SHOULD BE AWARE OF THEM AND COUNCIL SHOULD ALSO BE IN AGREEMENT THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE WANNA BRING FORWARD TO THE PUBLIC, RIGHT? IN A WAY THAT IS ADVERSARIAL, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED, RIGHT? IT WAS ADVERSARIAL. SO I THINK WE'RE TRYING TO AVOID ALL THAT BY SAYING LET'S HAVE THAT PUBLIC CONVERSATION EARLIER AND WITH COUNSEL, HOWEVER, THE WORD THUS TO THE CITY MEANS ANYTHING. MM-HMM . COULD WE JUST LIMIT THIS TO PERSONNEL, PERSONNEL, PERSONNEL? THAT'S WHAT I WAS, WELL, SURE IT'S LIMITED TO PERSONNEL MATTERS THEN. I THINK IT'S FINE. YEAH. I THINK THAT THAT THAT WOULD BE COMPLETELY FINE AS WELL BECAUSE THAT IS THE ISSUE WE'RE WORRYING ABOUT. RIGHT? WITH ONE MORE EXCEPTION, I WOULD TAKE OUT THE 10 DAYS IN ADVANCE AND JUST SAY COURTESY NOTICE MUST BE SUPPLIED TO THE CITY MANAGER FOR ANYTHING ON PERSONNEL ISSUES. AND THAT WAY THE CITY MANAGER COULD ALERT US. BUT IF WE HAD AN EXEC SESSION, WOULDN'T THE CITY MANAGER THEREFORE BE INFORMED OF WHAT HAPPENED INSIDE OF THE EXEC SESSION? SO THAT THIS, THAT'S ALREADY A HEADS UP THAT THIS REQUEST IS GOING TO COME. RIGHT. AND THE CITY MANAGER THEN HAS THE OPPORTUNITY DURING THAT EXEC SESSION TO PUT IN ANY INFORMATION THAT THEY FEEL IS ALSO RELEVANT TO THE CONVERSATION. I'M JUST TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, NOT NECESSARILY HAVE A O UH, OPEN PUBLIC CONVERSATION ABOUT PEOPLE. UM, THAT'S WHY I'M, I KEEP SAYING EXEC SESSION. 'CAUSE YOU COULD BE WRONG, IN WHICH CASE YOU'VE ALREADY DAMAGED THEM BY HAVING HAD THE CONVERSATION IN PUBLIC DEREK RATHER THAN EVERYBODY BEING COPIED ON THE RESULTS OF THE REQUEST. WHAT ABOUT IF COUNSEL IS JUST NOTIFIED THAT THE REQUEST WAS MADE, AND I MEAN NINE TIMES OUTTA 10 WE MAY BE LIKE WHATEVER. BUT IF WE SEE SOMETHING THAT SEEMS KIND OF, ARE YOU SAYING THAT IN RELATION TO ONLY PERSONNEL MATTERS? NOW COULD WE MAYBE TALK ABOUT FIRST RESTRICTING THIS TO JUST PERSONNEL MATTERS? SURE. SO THAT THEN THAT'S CLEAR FOR ANY OTHER COMMENTS THAT WE MAKE. IS THAT WHERE WE ARE? I'M CURIOUS. YES, THAT'S WHERE WE ARE. OKAY. SO THIS IS ONLY GOING, NUMBER FIVE IS ONLY GOING TO REFER TO PERSONNEL MATTERS. SO KURT, WOULD THAT VIOLATE OPEN MEETINGS IF, YOU KNOW, I MAKE A REQUEST REGARDING SO-AND-SO'S RECORD AT THE CITY AND THEN NOTIFICATION GOES TO YOU, YOU, ANNETTE, AND THE REST OF THE COUNSELORS? JUST THAT I'VE MADE THE REQUEST? NO, I DON'T THINK SO. IT'D BE SIMILAR TO, THERE'S BEEN EXCEPTIONS WHERE IF YOU TALK TO THE NEWS AND IT ENDS UP IN THE NEWSPAPER AND EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT YOU SAID IN THE NEWSPAPER, THAT'S NOT AN OPEN MEETING LAB VIOLATION EITHER. OKAY. IT'S PURELY INFORMATION AND NOT DISCUSSION. AND THEN IF SOMEBODY ELSE SAYS, HEY, I WANT TO, I WANNA SEE THAT TOO, THEY CAN SPEAK UP INSTEAD OF JUST, WELL, I THINK THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THE CITY MANAGER, WHETHER WELL TWO THINGS, WHETHER THE CITY MANAGER SHOULD BE NOTIFIED IN ADVANCE AND OR WHETHER COUNCIL SHOULD BE DISCUSSING IT IN EXECUTIVE SESSION PRIOR TO THE REQUEST TO SEE WHETHER IT SHOULD BE A COUNCIL REQUEST AS [01:00:01] A BODY. ANNETTE. THANK YOU MADAM MAYOR. UM, WELL ONE DISTINCTION I THINK WE SHOULD DISCUSS IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE COUNCIL HAS, UM, DIRECT SUPERVISORY AUTHORITY OVER MYSELF, KURT, AND A JUDGE. UM, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE ANY AUTHORITY OVER ANY OTHER EMPLOYEES. SO I WOULD WANNA KNOW IF YOU WANT TO GET INTO THE WEEDS ON A DIFFERENT EMPLOYEE WHY AND WHAT IT'S ABOUT. BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ACTUALLY ANY AUTHORITY TO TAKE ANY PERSONNEL ACTION AGAINST ANY OF THEM. SO IF YOU'RE JUST CURIOUS ABOUT SOMEBODY'S DISCIPLINE OR SOMEBODY'S PERFORMANCE, OR YOU'VE HEARD A COMPLAINT AND YOU WANNA KNOW IF WE TOOK CARE OF IT, I WOULD HOPE THAT WE COULD JUST HAVE THAT DISCUSSION WITHOUT GOING THROUGH A BUNCH OF PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS ON PEOPLE'S PERSONNEL FILES, WHICH SEEMS LIKE BORDERLINE OVERSTEPPING, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PREVIOUS SITUATION. SO, UM, WELL I HAVE A, I'M JUST KIND OF WONDERING OF TRYING TO SPEND A BUNCH OF TIME MAKING RULES ABOUT COUNSEL REQUESTING PERSONNEL INFORMATION OF PEOPLE THAT YOU DON'T SUPERVISE, WHETHER THAT'S EVEN NECESSARY. UM, WELL I HAVE A QUESTION FOR KURT. FIRST, ARE PERSONNEL RECORDS NOT CONFIDENTIAL? NO, NOT IN ARIZONA. THEY'VE, THE COURTS HAVE RULED CONSISTENTLY IN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THAT PUBLIC EMPLOYEE'S PERSONNEL FILES ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC FOR INSPECTION. WE CAN, WE CAN DURING PENDENCY OF INVESTIGATIONS, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN BE, IT CAN BE HELD CONFIDENTIAL IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CITY, BUT ONCE THE INVESTIGATION IS OVER, IT BECOMES A PUBLIC RECORD. SO THEN HOW DO WE BALANCE A RIGHT THAT ANY INDIVIDUAL HAS WITH A POTENTIAL FOR HARASSMENT OR OVERSTEPPING? HOW DO WE BALANCE THAT? SO THAT'S WHY I WASN'T NECESSARILY, AND I I PUT IN HER SUGGESTIONS IN HERE JUST SO WE CAN HAVE THIS DISCUSSION. THIS WASN'T SOMETHING I NECESSARILY SUPPORTED, BUT I WASN'T NECESSARILY AGAINST. 'CAUSE IT WAS JUST A 10 DAY NOTIFICATION. IT DIDN'T ELIMINATE THE RIGHT. IT JUST, UM, HAD A PROCEDURE. AND, AND ANY, ANY RIGHT YOU HAVE CAN OFTEN BE, UH, REGULATED IN A TIME PLACE AND MANNER TYPE RESTRICTION. YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE ELIMINATING THE RIGHT, UM, NOT THAT I SUPPORTED THE 10 DAY NECESSARILY, UH, BUT THAT'S WHY IT WAS, I WAS AT LEAST ABLE TO PUT IT IN HERE AS AN OPTION FOR YOU FOR COUNSELING TO DISCUSS, WHICH IS WHY IT, WE'VE DONE SOME WORDSMITHING HERE AND ELIMINATED THE OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND, AND RESTRICTING THIS ONLY TO PERSONNEL MATTERS. I'M IN FAVOR OF THAT 10 DAYS. I'M NOT, WHY, WHY CAN YOU PLEASE GIMME AN EXAMPLE? LIKE, HELP ME UNDERSTAND WHY YOU WOULD NEED A PERSONNEL RECORD WITHOUT TALKING TO THE CITY MANAGER FIRST TO MAKE A DECISION ON WHETHER OR NOT I WANT TO ACTUALLY BRING IT TO THE CITY MANAGER. THAT'S AN INVESTIGATION. AND, AND THAT'S THE PATH THAT I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU. WE DON'T WANNA GO DOWN. THAT'S, IT'S A COUNCIL, IT'S A CONVERSATION WITH YOUR COUNCIL COLLEAGUES THEN AT THAT POINT AS TO WHETHER WE WANT TO TAKE SOMETHING SERIOUSLY. I I, OKAY. I HAVE A OPINION THAT DIFFERS FROM YOUR OPINION. OKAY. I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR OPINION. RIGHT. UM, WHICH IS THAT IF, IF SOMEBODY MAY BRING SOMETHING TO ME AND I MAY BE DELIBERATING WITHIN MYSELF, WHETHER OR NOT I THINK IT RISES TO BRINGING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE CITY MANAGER OR NOT, I MAY WANT SOME PRELIMINARY INFORMATION IN ORDER FOR ME TO MAKE A DETERMINATION ABOUT WHETHER I WANNA COME TO COUNCIL OR NOT. AND IN PRACTICE, WHEN YOU MAKE THAT REQUEST, I'M GONNA BE NOTIFIED BY THE STAFF. YEAH. SO, SO WE'LL, AND SO I WILL, WHICH I THINK IS APPROPRIATE THAT THE CITY MANAGER IS NOTIFIED. I, AND AS I SAID, A COURTESY NOTIFICATION 10 DAYS I THINK IS WHAT I'M OBJECTING TO HERE. SO, AND THAT'S CORRECT ON THAT. LIKE IF YOU PUT IN A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST, I'LL GET IT AND ANNETTE WILL GET IT MOST LIKELY ANYWAY. BUT, BUT IT'S MORE THAN JUST THE 10 DAYS OR THE COURTESY NOTICE IT'S SHOULD COUNSELORS TO ME, THIS, UH, I'M WITH COUNSELOR FURMAN HERE. THAT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE DOING AN INVESTIGATION AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO PREVENT. MM-HMM . INDIVIDUAL COUNSELORS WORKING ON THEIR OWN. SO THEN YOU CAN PERSONALITY RIGHT. ON A PERSONNEL ISSUE. YEAH. IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT TO ME NOW SINCE WE DID DO THE LIMIT AS I REQUESTED TO THE PERSONNEL ISSUE. SO BECAUSE IT WAS TOO BROAD BEFORE, UM, I'M READING THE LANGUAGE THAT'S UP THERE. OKAY. I WAS JUST TRYING TO CAPTURE WHAT EVERYONE WAS SAYING. YEAH, YEAH. WHERE IT WAS HEADED, KIND OF. BUT IT'S TOUGH. [01:05:07] THIS WOULD ALSO BE RECORDS REQUESTS RELATED TO PERSONNEL MATTERS UNTIL THEY'VE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS. YOU CAN ALSO JUST, INSTEAD OF THE NOTIFY, 'CAUSE WE DO GET NOTIFICATION, IT COULD JUST MOVE THE MUST REFRAIN UP HERE. COUNSELORS SHOULD REFRAIN FROM SUBMITTING PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS RELATING TO PERSONNEL MATTERS OF ITS CURRENT OR FORMER EMPLOYEES. I THINK THE LANGUAGE, THE WAY IT'S UP THERE NOW I'M OKAY WITH THAT LANGUAGE 'CAUSE I LIKE THAT IT SAYS COUNT COUNSELORS MUST REFRAIN FROM ISSUING ANY REQUEST UNTIL THE CITY MANAGERS OR THE ATTORNEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS WITH THE COUNSELOR. LISTEN, THIS IS REALLY A TOUGH ONE. AND BECAUSE ON ONE HAND I SORT OF AGREE WITH DEREK, THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES HERE. AND I AGREE WITH THE CITY MANAGER BECAUSE ANYONE IN THE CITY WHO DOES, WHO IS NOT THE CITY MANAGER OR THE CITY ATTORNEY OR THE JUDGE DOES NOT REPORT TO US. AND SO SHOULD WE ACTUALLY BE LOOKING INTO ANY OF THEIR PERSONNEL RECORDS WITHOUT JUST GOING TO THE INDIVIDUAL WHO, WHO IS THEIR MOST HIGH MANAGER, MAYBE NOT THEIR DIRECT MANAGER, BUT THEIR HIGHEST MANAGER AND SAY, MEANING THE PEOPLE WHO REPORT TO US. SO GO TO THE CITY MANAGER AND SAY, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT X BECAUSE I'VE HEARD Y AND UM, I WANNA HAVE THIS CONVERSATION AND LET'S, I WANNA START THE CONVERSATION WITH YOU. BUT IT MAY END UP THAT I WANNA HAVE THE CONVERSATION WITH ALL OF COUNCIL. SO I'M NOT LOOKING UP AT THE RECORDS. I'M GOING TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION FIRST WITH, WITH THE CITY MANAGER OR THE CITY ATTORNEY OR THE JUDGE TO SAY, I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH A MEMBER OF YOUR STAFF. THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN SAYING, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A CITY MANAGER. RIGHT. AND SO IF I HAVE A PROBLEM, AND I'M SORRY I'M PICKING ON YOU 'CAUSE I'M, I'M LOOKING RIGHT AT YOU , BUT GO AHEAD. UM, IF I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE CITY MANAGER, THEN THAT SHOULD BE AN EXEC SESSION WITH COUNCIL. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL I THE REVIEW AND I CAN SAY, OH, I, I'VE ENCOUNTERED THESE ISSUES. I SHOULD SAY I'VE SEEN THESE ISSUES AND I THINK THERE'S AN ISSUE THAT WE NEED TO DISCUSS. AND SO I SHOULD BE GOING TO KURT, UNLESS KURT'S THE POINT OF PROBLEM AND SAYING, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE AN EXEC SESSION. CAN WE DO THAT SO THAT I CAN DISCUSS THIS WITH COUNSEL? SO IF, JUST LIKE, THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT THINGS HERE AROUND THIS. AND DO WE HAVE THE NEED AT ANY POINT IN TIME WITHOUT A DISCUSSION REQUIRING PERSONNEL INFORMATION THAT'S IN PUBLIC RECORDS. THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. THIS IS SAYING I HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO AND REQUEST PUBLIC RECORDS ABOUT PERSONNEL SO LONG AS I GIVE NOTICE. NO, NO, IT'S SAYING THAT AN OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS WITH THE, WITH THE CITY MANAGER AND OR CITY ATTORNEY, IT JUST SAYS TO, IT SAYS NOTIFY CITY, UH, MANAGER OR ATTORNEY PRIOR TO SUBMITTING A PUBLIC REQUEST. UH, YOU KNOW, TO FORMER EMPLOYEES. THAT'S THE, THE KEY HERE. THE KEY KEY AT THE SECOND SENTENCE. I KNOW. SO YOU COULD, YOU COULD ADD IT, IT MUST NOTIFY AND DISCUSS WITH THE CITY UNIVERSITY MANAGER. CORRECT. THE DISCUSS IS MISSING. AND IT JUST FEELS TO ME THAT WITHOUT THE DISCUSSION, THERE'S NO REASON FOR YOU TO BE SUBMITTING BECAUSE THAT'S SAYING YOU'RE GOING TO GO AROUND THE PERSON WHO YOU AS COUNSELORS HAVE HIRED TO MANAGE THIS STAFF. AND THAT FEELS LIKE THAT'S ALREADY A VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE TO WHOEVER THE MANAGER IS, IN MY OPINION. AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY. I CAN, THIS IS, THIS IS, I CAN, THIS IS FINE WITH ME. OKAY. NOW WHAT ABOUT THE JUDGE? BECAUSE THERE COULD BE AN ISSUE THAT'S BROUGHT TO OUR ATTENTION IN THE COURT. SO I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE ALL THREE THERE. RIGHT? AND THE, AND THE JUDGE DOES NOT ANSWER TO THE CITY MANAGER. RIGHT? RIGHT. NOR DOES THE ATTORNEY, ARE WE LEAVING THE 10 DAYS OUT OR IN, I THINK WE'RE LEAVING IT OUT AT THIS POINT. TO ME, THE 10, 10 DAYS IS ALWAYS WHAT'S KNOWN AS A COOLING OFF PERIOD. SO I, BY 10, 10 DAYS, YOU'RE GIVING ME AN OPPORTUNITY THAT I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT I REALLY WANNA DO IT AS, AS OPPOSED TO I WAS REALLY TICKED OFF AT SOMETHING AND SO I'M GOING TO GO DO THIS. I, I DON'T THINK THAT'S NECESSARY. I THINK IF WE EVER GOT TO THIS STAGE ISN'T GONNA BE ONE EVENT OR IT WON'T BE AN INSTANTANEOUS SORT OF THING. AT LEAST I THINK MOST COUNSELORS WILL BE RATIONAL. THANK YOU. EXCEPT FOR THE, THE THE MISSING COUNSELOR. I DON'T MEAN THE VACANT SEAT, BUT THE, THE PERSON THAT WE'RE TRYING TO CONTROL . FAIR ENOUGH. FAIR POINT. [01:10:03] ALL RIGHT. SO READY TO MOVE ON? UH, YEAH. SO ONE OF THE ELEMENTS THAT DISTURBED ME IN THE PAST ACTIONS IS WHEN THE MAYOR WAS DOING PUBLIC RECORDS ACT REQUEST UNDER HIS SIGNATURE AN EMAIL FROM THE CITY. AND, AND I WONDER IF THAT CAN BE PART OF OUR RULES OR, AND AND IT'S A KNIT, IT'S NOT LIKE ANYONE'S NOT GONNA KNOW THAT THIS PERSON ISN'T COUNSELOR MAYOR. BUT NONETHELESS IT LOOKED WRONG TO ME. IT LOOKED LIKE ADDITIONAL PRESSURE BEING PUT ON MM-HMM . BECAUSE YOU'RE THE MAYOR AND YOU OR THE COUNSELOR AND YOU MIGHT HAVE SOME POWER HERE AND GO TO THE FRONT OF THE LINE. YES. AND SO I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IF IN THE END THAT IN OF US NEEDS TO DO A PRA THAT WE DO IT FROM AS A CITIZEN LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE UNDER OUR PERSONAL EMAIL. NO, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT. ISN'T THAT SUBTERFUGE AT THAT POINT? NO, BECAUSE IT IS IN YOUR ROLE AS A COUNCIL MEMBER THAT YOU'RE, WELL, IF IT'S IN YOUR ROLE AS A COUNCIL MEMBER, WE'RE ACTUALLY ENCOURAGING DIALOGUE WITH OUR STAFF BEFORE, NOT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOME, LIKE I DID ONE PUBLIC RECORDS ACT REQUEST IN THE END BECAUSE I WANTED SOME HISTORY ABOUT PUBLIC, UH, OUR ELECTIONS IN THE PAST THAT ISN'T A CURRENT CITY ITEM. IT WASN'T GONNA COME BEFORE COUNCIL. I WAS JUST DOING MY OWN HISTORY RESEARCH AND JOE ASKED ME TO DO A PRA FOR THAT. AND I THINK THAT IT'S BEST FOR ME TO DO THAT AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN. 'CAUSE THAT'S WHAT I'M, DO I'M ASKING FOR THAT INFORMATION. AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN, DO YOU WANNA JUST PROVIDE DIRECTION TO STAFF HERE AND STATE THAT THEY'RE NOT WAIT SECOND, CAN I GET A CLARIFICATION ON THAT? BUT YOU JUST SAID BEFORE THAT YOU WERE DOING IT, BUT IN YOUR ROLE AS COUNSELOR, IT WAS INFORMATION THAT NO, NO, IT WAS FOR MY OWN HISTORY PROJECT OF THANK YOU. OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IN PAST ELECTIONS. OKAY. COULD ONE MORE CLARIFICATION TO THE GROUP. UH, WE DON'T HAVE, AND KURT, YOU AND I HAVE HAD THIS CONVERSATION 'CAUSE THIS GOES DIRECTLY TO YOUR POINT ABOUT A LETTERHEAD. THE CITY HAS A LETTERHEAD. WE AS COUNSELORS ARE INDEPENDENTLY ELECTED. WE DON'T HAVE A LETTERHEAD. I, UH, TALKED TO YOU ABOUT, I MADE MY OWN LETTERHEAD 'CAUSE THERE WERE CORRESPONDENCE. I NEEDED TO REPLY TO PEOPLE WHO WROTE LETTERS TO ME. AND I WROTE LETTERS BACK AND I ASKED YOU ABOUT USING A CITY SEAL ON SOMETHING TO IDENTIFY THIS WAS COMING FROM ME AS A COUNSELOR. SO IF THAT PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST WENT IN ON SOMEBODY'S OWN LETTERHEAD THEY'VE DEVELOPED AS A COUNSELOR, UH, IS THAT PRESSURE THERE VERSUS, I MEAN, 'CAUSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE A WAY OF HAVING SOMETHING WHEN YOU'RE, COS WHEN I'M CORRESPONDING WITH A MEMBER OF, UH, YOU KNOW, A A BUSINESS OWNER FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IS WRITTEN TO ME IN LETTER FORM AND I WANNA WRITE BACK IN LETTER FORM. I NEED TO DO THAT IN A WAY THAT IDENTIFIES THE ROLE. RIGHT, RIGHT. IF I'M USING THAT SAME LETTERHEAD FOR A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST, I, I'M JUST TRYING TO FACTOR IN TO YOUR POINT BEFORE YOU, YOU GET MY WHAT I'M ASKING. YEAH. YEAH. I BUT IF, IF IT'S PERSONAL BUSINESS, I MEAN, I'VE, I'VE DONE RECORDS REQUESTS MYSELF OVER THE COURSE OF TIME THAT HAD TO DO WITH PERSONAL ISSUES, NOT RELATED TO MY ROLE AS A COUNSELOR. AND I SENT IT FROM MY PERSONAL EMAIL. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. YES, EXACTLY. EXACTLY. SO, RIGHT. BUT MY POINT WAS THAT, SO PERSON X, AND I'M GOING BACK IN TIME TO THE EXAMPLE THAT WE HAD, HAS THEIR OWN LETTERHEAD. IT'S THEM AS, IT'S NOT THEM ON BEHALF OF THE CITY. BUT WHAT WOULD STOP THEM FROM USING THAT LETTERHEAD FROM THEIR ELECTED OFFICE? THERE'S NOTHING, THERE'S NOTHING THAT STOPS PEOPLE. IT'S, IT'S SETTING UP EXPECTATIONS. MM-HMM . YOU KNOW, SOMEONE HAS A DEVICE NEXT TO THE MIC OR A PHONE OR SOMETHING. THAT'S WHAT THAT STATIC IS. CORD SOMETHING. SO PETE, YOU HAVE A PLACE THAT YOU WANNA PUT THIS OR YOU MEAN PERSONAL GOD'S MUST RETRAINING IT'S PERSONAL, DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT. LET'S SEE. USING THEIR, LIKE THE TITLE. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, WE ALL KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND YOU, YOU'RE WHILE GIVEN SOME, YEAH, YOU'RE GONNA AUTOMATICALLY JUMP TO THE FRONT OF LINE WHEN YOU PUT IT IN A PERSONAL, UH, PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST. UM, WE'RE OFTEN DEEP IN THE MIDDLE OF OTHER PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS. AND SO COURSE, UM, WE'LL ACCOMMODATE YOU AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. BUT IT'S NOT LIKE AN AUTOMATIC JUMP [01:15:01] ANYWAYS. THEY ALL GO DIRECTLY TO DAVID JACOB AND HE KNOWS YOU , AND THEN THEY IMMEDIATELY GET COPIES, YOU KNOW, TO JOANNE, ME AND ANNETTE DEPENDING ON THE TOPIC. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NEED IT. WE, WE MAY NOT NEED IT. IT'S A COMPLICATION. I, YEAH, I THINK SO. YEAH. ALL RIGHT, SO LET'S GO TO, UH, SIX. PHONE IS STILL SO WAS IT? YEAH. SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S NOT GONNA BE LIKELY TO BE ENFORCEABLE IF IT'S ANONYMOUS. UM, IT'S, I MEAN IT IS UNDER THE CODE RULES OF DECORUM. SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN USED A LOT RECENTLY AND IT'S CAUSED SOME ISSUES. BUT IF, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW HOW WE'D EVER PROVE IT OR EVER BE ABLE TO INVESTIGATE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. SO, BUT IT DID COME FROM, THIS IS STACEY GABRIEL'S RECOMMENDATION FROM HER INVESTIGATION. THIS IS THE EXACT LANGUAGE THAT WAS RECOMMENDED. I'M PRETTY SURE BECAUSE, UM, LET ME DOUBLE CHECK. I GET THE, I GET THE INTENT, BUT THE LANGUAGE JUST DOESN'T SIT WELL. I MEAN, WHAT COUNCILOR SHALL JUDGE NOT TO ADMIT ANONYMOUS INFORMATION TO THE MEETING. YEAH. YEP. IT'S A AND PUT IN TWO C LIKE RECOMMENDED MELISSA. YEAH. MAY I ASK WHY THIS IS NOT THEN JUST ONE OF THE ONES AT THE FRONT ETHICAL CONDUCT FOR ELECTED, UH, OFFICIALS. SO, AND IF YOU PUT UP THERE, I'D MAKE IT MORE GENERIC. IT WOULD JUST BE NOT ACT ANONYMOUSLY PERIOD. RIGHT. BECAUSE IT'S A PLEDGE AND THE ONES ABOVE ARE PLEDGES. SO IS THIS REALLY SOMEHOW PART OF THAT SAME ETHICAL PLEDGE? SO LET'S, I I AGREE WITH YOU. MM-HMM . I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. LET ME PULL IT AND SEE IF WE CAN GET IT UP HERE IN A FORM. OKAY. WELL IGNORING THE FORMATTING ISSUES. SO YOU NEED TO, YOU PUT AN I WILL TO CHANGE IT. I WILL, YEAH. I WILL PLEDGE OR I WILL REFRAIN. I PLEDGE. IT CAN BE I PLEDGE OR DO WE REALLY NEED, I WILL IN EACH ONE. I WILL NOT SUBMIT. JUST I WILL NOT SUBMIT. AND DO WE WANT IT MORE BROAD THAN NOT? WELL, I WONDER IF IT SHOULD BE MORE BROAD TO JUST ANONYMOUSLY COMMUNICATION. BECAUSE THEN IF THERE'S SOME TOPIC BEFORE, YOU KNOW, COUNSELOR COMING UP BEFORE COUNCIL AND I SUBMIT SOME ANONYMOUS STUFF THAT ACTUALLY IS USED TO PREJUDICE OTHER COUNSELORS AND THEY DON'T KNOW THAT IT CAME FROM ANOTHER COUNSELOR, THEN IT JUST FEELS LIKE IT'S KIND. ANY KIND OF ANONYMOUS COMMUNICATION ON ANY SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM OR WRITTEN PLATFORM OR HOWEVER YOU WANNA DO IT. 'CAUSE IT CAN SHOW UP IN MANY FORMS. RIGHT. BRIAN, DID YOU HAVE SOMETHING ON THIS BUSINESS RELATED BUT NOT DIRECTLY? THIS. OKAY. SO I CAN WAIT IF I'M JUST WONDERING, UH, KURT, WHETHER YOU WANT TO, IS THIS COMMUNICATE ANONYMOUSLY ON CITY BUSINESS? YEAH, THAT'S BETTER. NOT SO DETAILED. I THINK WE WANNA ALSO INCLUDE THE, OR ENCOURAGE ANYONE ELSE. YES. YES. YES. WORDSMITHING. IT MIGHT BE ABOUT CITY BUSINESS , ISN'T IT? RULE SOMEWHERE ABOUT NOT WORDSMITHING FROM THE DI . THAT RULE'S BEEN SUSPENDED FOR TODAY. THAT'S TRUE WORK. YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT WORK SESSIONS ARE FOR, RIGHT? PRETTY TO, TO DO OR MAKE. I LIKE MAKE SOUNDS BETTER. ALL RIGHT. SO RELATED TO THIS, AND I, I'VE SEARCHED BACK THROUGH TO SEE IF IT'S IN HERE OR NOT, BUT THERE, I DIDN'T SEE WHERE IT SAYS, COUNSEL SHALL NOT DISSEMINATE ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGED. [01:20:01] YES. INFORMATION. PLEASE PUT THAT IN. WELL, DO YOU WANT IT IN THE CODE OF ETHICAL CONDUCT? YES. YES. OKAY. GOOD CATCH. BRIAN. I'M MEANINGFULLY PARTICIPATING IN COUNSELOR KINSELLA AND FULLY THANK YOU FOR THAT. IT'S GONNA BE A LONG DAY. . I WAS PSYCHED WHEN WE GOT ONTO PAGE FOUR OF 46 WITHIN THE FIRST LIKE 15 MINUTES. NOW WE'RE BACK. WE'RE STILL ON PAGE FIVE NOW. UM, THIS, THESE ARE THE MEATY SECTIONS. THIS WAY IT WOULDN'T BE UNTIL TWO IN THE MORNING. ALRIGHT, WELL I'LL GET SOME BETTER LANGUAGE. YOU WANT US TO VIOLATE ATTORNEY CLIENT PRIVILEGE, , NOT VIOLATE ATTORNEY CLIENT PRIVILEGE OR JUST CLOSE. ALL RIGHT, I GOT THE IDEA. . UM, IT'S REALLY NOT VIOLATE IT'S REALLY DISCLOSE, BUT YES. BUT IF YOU'RE OKAY, I CAN, I CAN COME UP A BETTER SOUNDING SENTENCE LATER. ALL RIGHT. OKAY, G. ALL RIGHT. I DON'T THINK WE DID D YET. WE DIDN'T DO DD CONDUCT AND PUBLIC MEETINGS. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY? YES. 12. SHOULD 12 GO UP UNDER C? SHOULD 12 GO UP UNDER C? OKAY. BECAUSE IT'S GENERAL RULES OF DECORUM VERSUS CONDUCT IN PUBLIC MEETINGS. BUT THIS IS CONDUCT IN PUBLIC MEETINGS, SO IT FITS IN BOTH. I'M FINE. I THINK YOU NEED IN BOTH. YEAH. ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS SECTION? OKAY, LET'S GO TO E. GOOD ON E ACTUALLY, SORRY, WE HAVE SOMETHING IN YEAH, D IN D. OKAY. UM, ITEM 11. WHAT IS BUSINESS CASUAL IN THE YEAR 2025? IN SEDONA, IN SEDONA. 'CAUSE LIKE, I LOVE BEING, I LOVE BEING AS CASUAL AS THE NEXT PERSON, BUT WE'RE HERE TO DO THE PEOPLE'S BUSINESS. OUR ATTORNEY AND UH, MEMBERS OF STAFF ARE OFF AND WEARING COAT AND TIE. SO THERE SEEMS LIKE THERE SHOULD BE A LEVEL OF DECORUM. I DON'T WANNA WEAR A TIE JUST TO BE A HUNDRED PERCENT CLEAR ABOUT THAT. BUT, UM, YOU KNOW, MY, MY RECOLLECTIONS OF BUSINESS CASUAL DON'T INCLUDE SHORTS. DON'T INCLUDE DENIM. I DON'T NEED TO BE A HARD CASE ABOUT IT. BUT I WOULD LIKE, YOU KNOW, SOME CONSISTENCY ABOUT WHETHER, WHAT, WHAT'S GONNA BE BUSINESS CASUAL. I THINK NOT INCLUDING I, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T USUALLY WEAR DENIM, BUT I THINK THAT'S A LITTLE ARE YOU, ARE YOU IN DENIM TODAY? NO, I LIKE BLUE JEANS. I NEVER WEAR BLUE JEANS. YOU'VE NEVER EVER SEEN ME IN A PAIR OF BLUE JEANS. UM, NOT, NOT ON THE DAES, JUST IN GENERAL, RIGHT? CORRECT. THAT'S CORRECT. THAT'S RIGHT. UM, BUT, BUT I THINK THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO COULD LOOK VERY NICE IN A PAIR OF BLUE JEANS AND A, A DRESS SHIRT, WHATEVER. SO I DON'T THINK I WANT TO GO TOO CRAZY OVER THAT. YEAH. I JUST WANT CONSISTENCY. LIKE, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, YOU TALKED EARLIER, COUNSELOR KINSELLA ABOUT TERMS THAT DON'T HAVE SPECIFIC MEANING. WHAT'S BUSINESS CASUAL NOW? LIKE I SAID, I'M HAPPY TO, IF, IF WE WANNA SAY DENIM IS COOL, OKAY, DENIM'S COOL, BUT LET'S BE CONSISTENT ABOUT THAT AND ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT WE'VE GOT STAFF THAT DOES COME DRESSED MORE FORMALLY AND IT SEEMS OUT OF PLACE FOR US TO BE REALLY CASUAL WHEN THEY'RE NOT JUST WHAT NUMBER IS THAT PLEASE? 11. 11, 11 ON PAGE FOUR. SO IT'S DDD 11. WE COULD SAY WE ENCOURAGE, UH, NOT TO WEAR SHORTS OR FLIP FLOPS. THAT'S USUALLY WHAT I SEE IN, IN RULES ABOUT BUSINESS CASUAL T-SHIRTS. YEAH. T-SHIRTS. THAT'S THE OTHER ONE. WELL, DOES THIS COUNT AS A T-SHIRT? NO. WELL, NO, IT SAYS WHO? . WELL, NO T-SHIRT. I WEARING A T-SHIRT. IT'S NOT, IT'S A BLOUSE TOP. IT'S NOT A T-SHIRT. THIS IS A T-SHIRT. NO, IT'S NOT A T-SHIRT. AND YOU'RE IN BLUE JEANS TOO, MAN. YOU'RE A FASHION DISASTER, DUDE. THE CAMERA'S ON AND YOU'RE, WHAT IS THIS ABOUT PERSONAL ATTACKS IN HERE? ? [01:25:01] NO. OOPS. IF YOU BANNED, SAY WITH APOLOGIES IF YOU BANNED BLEEDING, WE DISCOURAGE TWO SLOTS. WE DISCOURAGE SHORTS AND FLIP FLOPS AND T-SHIRTS. AND THAT MEAN, THAT'S WHAT I USUALLY SEE WHEN PEOPLE ARE SUGGESTING IN RESTAURANTS OR IN RESORTS. I JUST WANNA POINT OUT THAT IN BERMUDA, YOU ARE PERFECTLY WELL DRESSED IF YOU ARE IN SHORTS WITH A DRESS TOP AND TIE AND WHATEVER. BUT I'M JUST POINTING IT OUT. THEY'RE CALLED BERMUDA SHORTS THOUGH, AND THEY ARE DIFFERENT THAN SHORT SHORTS. I'M FINE. I MEAN, I'M FINE WITH THAT. I JUST THINK WE SHOULD HAVE SOME SPECIFICITY SO THAT THINGS DON'T GET TOO LOOSE. YEP. THERE YOU GO. WE JUST, WHAT'S A T IS THAT HOW YOU DO T-SHIRTS? I JUST SAID, YEAH. AS A PERSON WHO WEARS SHORTS. DO YOU HAVE A COMMENT? I JUST SAID I DISSENT KURT IS A FORMATTING ISSUE HERE. NO. HOT PANTS? NO. COULD YOU ALSO BE LOOKING AT, ON THE NEW PAGE TO REFLECT THAT THIS IS STILL A CONTINUATION OF RULE D? YES. SO A A YOU DON'T DO THAT. YOU HAVE TO SCROLL BACK UP TO CD. YEAH. YEAH. 'CAUSE SOME OF 'EM ACTUALLY GO ON MORE THAN A PAGE AND YEP. WELL, YEAH, YOU'D HAVE TO DO THAT THROUGH THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT. YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO THAT TO THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT. ALCOHOL. I DON'T, I DON'T NEED THAT. IT'S NOT, I DON'T CARE. ALL RIGHT. SO WE'RE IN AGREEMENT WITH ONE DISSENT. I I, NO, I, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW WHERE I AM ON THIS. I, I HAVE WE SEEN ISSUES? I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WORD IS. I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'VE SEEN IT'S RIGHT THERE. COUNSELOR'S, OTHER OTHER ADDRESS DRESSED INAPPROPRIATELY BEFORE DISCOURAGED. I AGREE. UH, AGAIN, I, I THINK OF THIS AS A T-SHIRT, BUT , IT'S NOT A T-SHIRT. IT'S, IT'S, IT'S, IT'S GOT BLAME . THEY'RE NOT BANNED. THEY'RE JUST DISCOURAGED. 'CAUSE I OFTEN WEAR A, LIKE A BLACK T-SHIRT WITH SOMETHING, BUT, YOU KNOW, I JUST, I DON'T KNOW. SO YOU GOT TWO DESCENTS. IF IT'S JUST DISCOURAGED BY THAT, EVERYBODY ELSE IT'S DESCENT ON THIS ONE. I THINK THAT THIS IS JUST, THIS IS WHATEVER ANYBODY WANTS IT TO BE. QUITE HONESTLY, I WORKED AT HIGH TECH WHERE WE WERE ALL SUPPOSED TO WEAR BUSINESS CASUAL IN CASE A CLIENT CAME THROUGH. WE'RE ALL WEARING DENIM. AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE WHAT'S COMFORTABLE AND IT, IT, WE'RE NOT HERE TO BE FASHION STATEMENTS. WE'RE HERE TO WORK ON POLICY AND BUSINESS OF THE CITY. UM, AND I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU'RE GOING THAT WE DON'T LOOK LIKE WE'RE, WE SHOULD BE DOING BUSINESS OF THE CITY. BUT I DON'T THINK ANYONE ELECTED ME BECAUSE OF MY CLOTHES IN MY DRESS. I THINK THEY ELECTED ME BECAUSE THEY, OH, I WOULD DISAGREE WITH THEM. REALLY? . WOW. I'LL HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT. WHAT CAN I SAY? THEY ALWAYS LOOKED VERY NICE. YEAH. YEAH. WELL, THANK YOU. BUT, AND PROFESSIONAL, IF YOU HAD WORN, THERE WAS A PAIR OF BOOTS YOU WORE ONE DAY WITHOUT THEM. MELISSA, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'D HAVE MY VOTE. I'M KIDDING. TWO C TWO. I'M INVOKING HERE RIGHT NOW. . OKAY. REALLY? WHERE, WHERE DO WE STAND ON THIS? UH, I JUST, I THINK IT'S OKAY TO LEAVE IT BUSINESS CASUAL. AND IT IS ACCORDING TO PEOPLE'S DEFINITIONS. AND IF, IF PEOPLE WANNA WEAR T-SHIRTS AND BLUE JEANS AND FEEL THAT THAT'S APPROPRIATE FOR REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THEM, THEN I THINK THEN THAT MIGHT BE THE CONSTITUENCY THAT THEY'RE REPRESENTING. I HAVE HAD PEOPLE TALK TO ME ACTUALLY LEGITIMATELY THAT THEY FEEL LIKE COUNCIL HAS DEGRADED ITS ATTIRE, ESPECIALLY MEN, BECAUSE IN THE PAST THEY, UH, MOST OF THE MEN MM-HMM . WORE SHIRTS AND A JACKET, NOT NECESSARILY A TIE, BUT SHIRTS AND A JACKET. AND PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY SAID SOMETHING. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT I'VE HEARD THE SAME CRITIQUE. MM-HMM . I HAVE HEARD THAT AS WELL. BUT, BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN THEN? I MEAN, ARE YOU GONNA DEFINE BUSINESS CASUAL HERE OR ARE YOU GONNA JUST SAY NO, NO WEARING OF AT WITH WHAT'S RIGHT THERE? I WOULD RECOMMEND GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE AND TAKING THAT OUT. AND IF THERE'S AN ONGOING PROBLEM, THEN IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. BUT I THINK IT'S A LITTLE VARYING FOR EACH PERSON. AND THEREFORE I WOULD JUST, WELL, DON'T TAKE IT OUT YET, KURT. LET'S JUST HIGHLIGHT IT FOR THE MOMENT. BUT COUNSELOR, THIS EMBODIES EXACTLY WHAT YOU'VE PUSHED BACK ON EARLIER ABOUT, IF YOU JUST SAY BUSINESS CASUAL, THEN IT'S WHATEVER YOU WANT IT TO BE. AND IT'S NOT SPECIFIC. LIFE IS INCONSISTENT. WHAT CAN I SAY, COUNSELOR? ALL RIGHT, PETE, WHERE ARE YOU ON THIS, UH, FALLING [01:30:01] ON THE CONSERVATIVE DRESS? END OF THE COUNCIL SCALE? IT DOESN'T, I, I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO SPECIFY ANY MORE THAN WE, WE HAVE IT THERE AND IT'S IN OUR RULES. AND SO YOU WOULD TAKE IT OUT THE, I DON'T THINK, I DON'T THINK WE NEED ANY MORE SPECIFICITY. OKAY. SO THAT'S TWO. AND I'M OKAY WITH AMBIGUITY ON THIS. THREE, FOUR. OKAY. OKAY. TAKE IT OUT. ALL RIGHT. NOW ARE WE READY FOR E MM-HMM . IT'S TRYING TO MESS WITH MY FORMATTING. LEMME DO IT THIS WAY. DO YOU THINK WE NEED SOMETHING IN HERE ABOUT WE, AND NUMBER THREE, IT SAYS, WE'LL REFRAIN FROM MAKING PROMISES ON BEHALF OF THE CITY, WHICH I'M TOTALLY OKAY WITH. UM, BUT THERE'S THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THAT, WHICH IS TO, AND, AND WE KIND OF DISCUSSED THIS IN FOUR ABOUT MAKING NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT COUNSELORS. BUT I HAVE, ONCE WE VOTE ON SOMETHING THAT'S THE MAJORITY, EVERYONE ON COUNCIL SHOULD SPEAK IN FAVOR OF IT OR NOT DISCREDIT AN ACTION OF COUNCIL. SO THIS IS JUST NEGATIVE PERSONAL COMMENTS, BUT WHAT ABOUT SPEAKING NEGATIVELY ABOUT A COUNCIL ACTION? I, I DON'T, I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF QUELLING MINORITY POSITIONS. UM, I THINK THE COUNCIL, ONCE AN ACTION IS TAKEN, THE COUNCIL HAS A POSITION, AND WHEN YOU'RE FORWARD, YOU SAY, COUNCIL HAS DECIDED TO DO THIS, THIS, THIS. YOU COULD ALSO THEN SAY, I VOTED AGAINST IT FOR WHATEVER REASON MY MINORITY POSITION IS. SO I DO NOT WANT TO SQUELCH MINORITY POSITIONS. I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT I'M SUGGESTING MAKING NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT COUNCIL ACTIONS, WHICH IS DIFFERENT. BUT IS IT OKAY TO SAY I DON'T AGREE WITH THE DECISION, BUT IT'S THE DECISION OF COUNCIL AND MM-HMM . IS THAT A, IS THAT OKAY? YEAH, IT'S TOTALLY OKAY. OKAY. BUT CAN YOU THEN NOT CRITIQUE THE DECISION? IN MY OPINION, I VOTED AGAINST IT BECAUSE WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN SPEAKING NEGATIVELY. AGAIN, SO MUCH OF THIS IS SUBJECTIVE. IT IS SUBJECTIVE, YEAH. BUT, BUT I THINK WHERE YOU'RE, YOU'RE HEADED, MAYOR IS ONCE A DECISION AT AMAZON, THEY CALL THIS DISAGREE AND COMMIT. RIGHT? SO ONCE IT'S, ONCE THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE BY COUNSEL, YOU CAN SAY TO THE POINT, I DISAGREED. HERE'S WHY I DISAGREED. WHAT YOU SHOULDN'T BE SAYING IS, I DISAGREED WITH COUNCIL'S DECISION. MM-HMM . RIGHT? BECAUSE THAT'S SAYING YOU DISAGREED WITH ALL THE OTHER COUNSELORS IN A NEGATIVE WAY AND THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT. BECAUSE, AND AGAIN, THEY, IT, IT WAS A DECISION WE MADE AS A BODY, WHETHER YOU AGREED OR DISAGREED, AND THEREFORE YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT THAT DECISION IN THE PUBLIC, EVEN IF YOU HAD A CONTRARY OPINION. SO I'M NOT TRYING TO SUPPRESS YOUR VIEW, YOU CAN EXPRESS YOUR VIEW. YOU CAN'T JUST EXPRESS IT IN A WAY THAT NEGATES THE FACT THAT THE OTHER MEMBERS HAD A DIFFERENT POSITION AND THEY WERE IN THE MAJORITY. AGAIN, THAT'S JUST SO SUBJECTIVE ON WHAT MY WORDING'S GONNA BE. YOU KNOW, I, YOU KNOW, YEAH. COUNSELOR DUNN, WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED FELT LESS DISTINCT COMPARED TO LIKE THE WAY COUNSELOR KINSELLA PUT IT. I TOTALLY GET THAT. YEAH. AND I SUPPORT THAT. IT'S, IT'S MORE THAT, OH, MY, MY COLLEAGUES ON THE COUNCIL, THEY DON'T GET IT. RIGHT. WHAT A BUNCH OF KNUCKLEHEADS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO REFRAIN FROM, RIGHT? UH, YES, OF COURSE. SO, BUT THAT'S NUMBER FOUR, RIGHT? YEAH. MM-HMM . BUT THERE'S ALSO A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SAYING WHY YOU DISAGREED WITH SOMETHING OR TRYING TO UNDERMINE THE DECISION. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING, YOU DON'T UNDERMINE, I MEAN, IF COUNSEL'S POSITION IS X, IT'S OKAY TO SAY, HERE'S WHY I VOTED THE OTHER WAY. BUT YOU DON'T GO OUT AND TRY TO SAY, OKAY, WELL HERE, HERE'S HOW YOU CAN GET AROUND IT. HERE'S HOW, YOU KNOW. NO, THAT'S, THAT'S OFF THE TABLE. SO ARE, WHAT ARE YOU SUGGESTING? I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M SUGGESTING. , I GUESS I FEEL LIKE YOU SHOULDN'T TRY TO CURTAIL, YOU KNOW, THE MINORITY VIEWPOINT. BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN, THE MINORITY NEEDS TO REALIZE THAT OKAY, IF YOU'RE NOT ON THE WINNING SIDE, YOU STATE YOUR CASE AND YOU MOVE ON AND COMMIT. COMMIT. SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M SUGGESTING OTHER THAN JUST, I [01:35:01] DON'T THINK WE CAN TELL PEOPLE THAT. THEY CAN'T SAY WHY THEY DISAGREE WITH SOMETHING. YEAH. I THINK YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO BE FREE TO SAY WHY YOU DISAGREE WITH SOMETHING. WELL, OF COURSE. BUT THAT'S, I'M GOING TO A POINT THAT WAS RAISED BY ANOTHER COUNSELOR. SO DO WE HAVE A PROBLEM ON THIS? HAVE, HAVE WE HAD A PROBLEM WITH THIS? DO WE THINK? I MEAN, I CAN'T PARTICULARLY NOT PROBABLY AWARE OF THINK I'M AWARE OF THINGS, BUT THAT'S OKAY. I, I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT ITEM THREE. STILL THERE'S THE MAKING PROMISES, BUT WE ALSO KNOW OF INSTANCES WHERE IT'S BEEN LIKE, NO, THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. NO, IT, IT IMPLIES SOME UNILATERAL AUTHORITY. MM-HMM . THAT DOESN'T EXIST. I THINK THAT COMES TO ME. THAT'S SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT'S IN THREE. IT IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BECAUSE, AND I'VE HEARD THAT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WHERE PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, THE MAYOR MM-HMM . HAS REFUSED TO ALLOW CONVERSATION TO TAKE PLACE AND HAS TOLD PEOPLE, I WILL NOT ALLOW THAT, OR IT WILL NEVER COME TO COUNCIL. OR THINGS ALONG THOSE LINES. IN PAST CITIES I'VE WORKED WITH AND COUNTIES, UM, THIS SIMILAR CONCEPT HAS BEEN EXPRESSED AS, YOU KNOW, COUNSELORS ONLY SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES, BUT DON'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO SPEAK OR, UM, COMMIT, YOU KNOW, THE CITY TO ANY ACTION, YOU KNOW, UNILATERALLY OR SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES. YEAH. WE KNOW THAT THAT'S CONTAINED IN THE END. THE PROBLEM IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WANTS TO EXPRESS HIMSELF DIFFERENTLY, WHICH WAS THE SITUATION THAT WE HAD. AND THEN WE TO BE ABLE TO GO BACK TO SAY, HEY, YOU INDIVIDUAL COUNSELOR, MAYOR, WHOEVER YOU MAY BE VIOLATED, RULE BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. THAT'S WHY IT NEEDS TO BE IN THERE TO BE ABLE TO ENFORCE RULES. SO I, I THINK IT'D BE, SINCE IT'S DIFFERENT, I THINK IT'D GO RIGHT HERE, BUT IT'D BE UNILATERAL, UNILATERAL DECISION MAKING. AND WE CAN SEE IF WE CAN COME UP WITH SOME LANGUAGE FOR THAT. I WOULD ACTUALLY LEAVE IT AS AN EXTENUATION OF THREE AS A SECOND SENTENCE OR CORRECT. AND IT'S LIKE REFRAINING FROM IMPLYING UNILATERAL AUTHORITY. MM-HMM . YOU COULD EVEN SAY NO, COUNSELOR, INCLUDING THE MAYOR HAS UNILATERAL AUTHORITY. MAKE IT CLEAR IN THERE. WELL THEN IT'S NOT THAT THEY DON'T HAVE IT, IT'S THAT THEY SHALL NOT IMPLY THEY HAVE IT BOTH, THEY WOULD PUT BOTH IN THESE UNOFFICIAL PUBLIC SETTINGS. YEAH, WELL SOME OF THEM ARE MORE THAN UNOFFICIAL. DIDN'T, DIDN'T WE AT THE VERY BEGINNING CHANGE THE WORDING SO THAT COUNSELORS INCLUDES THE MAYOR AND VICE MAYOR. SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP SAYING THE MAYOR. CORRECT. SO I, I WOULD JUST SAY, LET'S, LET'S STICK WITH THAT TERMINOLOGY, NOT CALL OUT ANY ONE ROLE. OKAY. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE I NEED TO QUIT SAYING OVER MY DEAD BODY , KURT. IS THAT, IS THAT BECAUSE THE MAYORS IS ELECTED SEPARATELY, WHICH IS A WHOLE NOTHER ISSUE? UM, IS THERE A REASON? IS IT, DOES IT HAVE TO BE CALLED OUT SEPARATELY WHEN YOU'RE MAKING SPECIFIC POINTS, OR IS IT FINE JUST IN THE FIRST ONE? IS THERE, WOULD THERE BE ANY AMBIGUITY IN SOMEBODY'S MIND LEGALLY, ANY LEGAL AMBIGUITY? NOT WITH THE RULES OF CONSTRUCTION THAT WE ADDED AT THE BEGINNING THAT SAYS ALL REFERENCES TO THE COUNSELOR INCLUDES THE MAYOR, COUNCIL, OR COUNCILORS. JUST DOUBLE CHECKING, TRIPLE CHECKING. BUT IT IS PUBLIC PERCEPTION. YEAH, THAT'S THE PROBLEM. YEAH. BUT WE CAN'T CON, WE CAN'T CONTROL PUBLIC PERCEPTION. WE CAN ONLY CONTROL THE ACTIONS OF THE COUNCIL. AND SO WE KNOW WHAT IT MEANS AS COUNCIL BODY. FUTURE COUNCILS WILL KNOW WHAT IT MEANS AS THE COUNCIL BODY AND THEY SHOULD TAKE ACTION THERE PURSUANT TO, TO THE CONSTRUCTION THAT WE CURRENTLY USE. I THINK THE LANGUAGE THAT COUNCILOR, VICE MAYOR FOLTZ HAD SUGGESTED WAS REFRAIN FROM APPLYING UN DECISION MAKING AUTHORITY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. UM, IMPLYING, RIGHT. YEAH. IMPLYING [01:40:01] AGAIN, I WOULD STILL MAKE THAT AN EXTENSION OF THREE. WELL, WHAT WAS YOUR SECOND SENTENCE THOUGH, KATHY? YOU HAD A COUNSELORS DO NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO YEAH, BUT I THINK WHAT, UM, THE VICE MAYORS COME UP WITH IS, IS SUFFICIENT AND THANK YOU. OH, YOU THINK THIS, YOU DON'T NEED THAT OTHER ONE. SO, ALRIGHT, IF IT'S, I WAS WITH YOUR SECOND SENTENCE, I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A BETTER AS A SECOND. WE CAN DO IT THAT WAY. THEN. HERE I'LL JUST CUT IT. DROP THE S FROM DECISION. SO ARE WE GOOD WITH THAT, THAT LANGUAGE? MM-HMM . ALL RIGHT. READY TO MOVE ON TO F? YES. OKAY. MAY I SPEAK TO F? YES, CERTAINLY. THANK YOU. SO THE FACT THAT QUOTES ARE USED HERE, UH, THAT QUOTE, ANY EXPRESSION OF OPINION IS, AND THAT'S IN, UM, ITEMS ONE AND TWO IMPLIES THAT THIS EXACT WORDING MUST BE USED. IT SAYS OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT. YEAH, IT SAYS OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT. YEAH. OKAY. ALRIGHT. OKAY. AND THREE ARTICLES ASSIGNED TO BE WRITTEN BY COUNSELORS WILL INCLUDE THE DISCLAIMER. THAT'S FINE. BUT WE DON'T, THAT SITUATION DOESN'T REALLY EXIST ANYMORE. UM, SHOULD JUST STAY IN THERE OR NOT? WELL, I THINK IT, IT SHOULD, WE MIGHT WANNA CHANGE, ASSIGN THE WORD ASSIGNED BECAUSE WRITTEN PE PEOPLE CAN, UH, SUBMIT. CORRECT. OKAY. OKAY. SO JUST ARTICLES ASSIGNED TO BE RIGHT. OKAY. OKAY. IN THERE. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. NOW ANOTHER MEATY SECTION. OKAY. I'M GONNA TAKE A BREAK. WOULD YOU LIKE TO, WOULD YOU LIKE TO TAKE A BREAK? UH, YEAH, I THINK SO. OKAY, BECAUSE THAT IS GONNA BE MEETING 10 MINUTES. IS THAT ENOUGH? YEAH. THANK YOU MAYOR. OKAY, WE'RE BACK, BACK IN SESSION AND WE LEFT AT NUMBER G. COUNCIL OR CONDUCT WITH CITY STAFF. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY COMMENTS ON ONE OR TWO? ARE ONE AND TWO GOOD? KATHY, DO YOU, UH, TWO. TWO. WE ONLY HAVE THE CITY MANAGER AT THE END OF TWO. IT MIGHT BE KURT DOES HAVE, RIGHT? YOU SAY ADD THE CITY MAG, ADD THE CITY ATTORNEY AND THE MAGISTRATE AND MAGISTRATE. OR WE COULD START USING THE WORD APPOINTEES EVERYWHERE INSTEAD OF HAVING TO HAVE, OKAY. THREE IS, AND, AND THIS WAS A SUGGESTION FROM STACY GABRIEL AND YEAH, I HAD HAD A A SOMETHING, BUT THIS ACTUALLY ADDRESSES IT. OKAY. SOMETHING ELSE GOING. IT, IT MADE THE GENERAL STATEMENT, THE ATTEMPT MADE IT MORE STRONG, BASICALLY TAKING THAT OUT. IT SHOULD AVOID, YOU KNOW, A ANNETTE, WE'VE NEVER TALKED TO YOU ABOUT YOUR, HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS. SO I ASKED YOU PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THE OTHER DAY AND YOU WENT, OH, WELL OF COURSE. BUT I FELT LIKE I SHOULD BECAUSE IT WAS YOUR DIRECT EMPLOYEE, I FELT LIKE I SHOULD ASK YOU AND YOU SEEMED SURPRISED THAT I WOULD ASK YOU. SO I, I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT YOUR FEELING IS ABOUT DIRECT CONTACT WITH, UH, THE DEPUTIES AND DEPARTMENT HEADS AND EMPLOYEES. UH, THANK YOU MAYOR FOR THE QUESTION. I THINK, [01:45:01] I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S IN HERE SPECIFICALLY, BUT I FEEL LIKE THE PRACTICE HAS BEEN THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, YOU LET ME KNOW OR EITHER BY A COPY, BUT YOU HAVE, UM, THE ABILITY TO REACH OUT TO DEPUTY CITY MANAGERS AND DEPARTMENT HEADS WITH LIKE A COPY TO ME TYPE OF THING. AND I THINK THE DISTINCTION COMES WHEN, UM, THE REQUEST OF THE EMPLOYEE IS LIKE A REALLY LARGE PROJECT THAT MAY NOT BE ON THE CITY'S PRIORITIES LIST OR SOME, UM, PREVIOUS DIRECTION FROM THE COUNCIL AS A WHOLE THAT THEY WANT SOME BIG PROJECT DONE. AND THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, THEN, UM, THAT'S THE DISTINCTION FOR ME IS IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO ANSWER, GET QUESTIONS ANSWERED ABOUT UPCOMING PACKET ITEMS OR EVENTS YOU'VE BEEN INVITED TO, JUST THE NORMAL KIND OF LITTLE THINGS, UM, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOU TALKING TO THE DEPARTMENT HEAD OR DEPUTY CITY MANAGER, JUST LET ME KNOW AND I WILL TRY TO FACILITATE OR HELP THAT. I THINK THE PART THAT GETS TRICKY IS WHEN A COUNSELOR IS BY THEMSELVES GOING TO A DEPARTMENT AND REQUESTING MAJOR THINGS BE DONE. THE EMPLOYEES DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE SAYING NO, OR, UM, OF COURSE THEY'RE GONNA TRY TO ACCOMMODATE YOU AS MUCH AS THEY CAN. AND THAT'S WHEN THINGS START GETTING SORT OF OFF TRACK. UM, SO LET'S, SO IT'S TAKE THE, IT'S DEPENDENT UPON YOUR GOOD JUDGMENT AS WELL AS TO WHAT YOU KNOW NEEDS TO BE ASKED. DO YOU WANNA BE CC'D ON EVERY COMMUNICATION WITH A SUBORDINATE? YES. FOR NOW. OKAY. UM, IT'LL, I DON'T KNOW THE VOLUME THAT THAT'S GOING TO CREATE . 'CAUSE I DON'T, I ASSUME YOU GUYS ARE ALREADY TELLING ME WHEN YOU'RE, YOU'RE COMMUNICATING WITH FOLKS, THAT SEEMS TO BE WHAT'S HAPPENING ALREADY. SO YEAH. SO IT'S LIKE FORWARDING AN EMAIL THAT WE GET TO ANDY AS AN EXAMPLE. YEAH. SOME OF WHICH YOU MAY HAVE SEEN BECAUSE THEY GO TO ALL COUNCIL AND SOME OF WHICH YOU MAY NOT BECAUSE THEY GO DIRECTLY TO ONE COUNCIL MEMBER. YEAH, NO, I WOULD APPRECIATE BEING COPIED. UM, I THINK THE MOST FREQUENT, UM, THING THAT I SEE IS THAT YOU HAVE CONSTITUENTS COME TO YOU WITH QUESTIONS ABOUT PROJECTS OR PRIOR, YOU KNOW, INITIATIVES, UM, NEEDING INFORMATION. AND YOU'VE ALL BEEN REALLY GOOD ABOUT FORWARDING THAT TO EITHER ME OR THE CORRECT PERSON IN A COPY TO ME. AND WE ARE HERE TO SUPPORT YOUR ABILITY TO DO YOUR JOB AS A COUNSELOR, RIGHT. AND WE WANNA BE ABLE TO GET YOU THE INFORMATION OR BE ABLE TO TAKE THAT QUESTION ON AND INTERACT WITH THAT PERSON AND GET THEM THE INFORMATION THEY NEED WITHOUT YOU HAVING TO BE THE, YOU KNOW, PERSON IN THE MIDDLE. SO I'M OPEN TO WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU. I THINK WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS JUST SAFEGUARD AGAINST COUNCIL COUNSELORS INDIVIDUALLY CIRCUMVENTING THE DIRECTION PROCESS FROM THE DAIS ON MAJOR PROJECTS AND THAT TYPE OF THING. IS THAT, YEAH, THERE IS A SECTION WHERE WE, IF A, IF A REQUEST TAKES MORE THAN TWO HOURS NEEDS TO COME TO COUNCIL, GET THREE COUNSELORS. WE, WE JUST MODIFIED THAT NOT TOO LONG AGO. IT'S JUST DIFFERENT. THERE'S SOMETHING IN HERE THOUGH THAT REFERS TO AN HOUR. SO IT'S JUST, I THINK THEY'RE TWO, IT'S ONE HOUR, BUT IT'S RIGHT HERE IN THIS SAME SECTION. YEAH. AND AGAIN, THAT DOWN HERE IN FIVE, THAT'S JUST TO SAFEGUARD AGAINST, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE HAVE, UM, LIMITED STAFF RESOURCES. EVERYBODY HAS A LOT OF PROJECTS ON DECK ALREADY FROM PREVIOUS COUNCIL DIRECTION AND UM, IT JUST HELPS US IN KEEPING THE ORGANIZATION ON TRACK WITH KEY PRIORITIES AND NOT HAVE THINGS COME TO THEM OUT OF THE BLUE THAT MAY NOT HAVE ALREADY BEEN AGREED TO BY THE COUNCIL. BUT THIS SECTION IS JUST ABOUT COMMUNICATION. YEAH. OKAY. SO EVERYBODY HEARD, BUT MY, MY CHALLENGE IS, YOU KNOW, THE OTHER PIECE THAT KURT SHOWED, UH, A MOMENT AGO, I MEAN, WHERE, WHERE, WHERE DOES IT GO FROM? I'M CONTACTING, YOU KNOW, A DEPUTY OR A DEPARTMENT HEAD AND EVEN JUST TO HAVE A CONVERSATION STILL COULD END UP REQUIRING TIME, SIGNIFICANT TIME THAT IN, IN WHICH CASE THEY'RE SAYING TO THE COUNCIL MEMBER, OH, I'LL, LET ME LOOK INTO THAT AND I'LL GET BACK WITH YOU. AND I, I'VE JUST ALWAYS THOUGHT THIS WAS A SLIPPERY SLOPE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHETHER WE ARE ABLE TO HAVE ANY IDEA HOW LONG IT MIGHT TAKE FOR A MEMBER OF STAFF TO ANSWER OUR QUESTION. AND WHETHER [01:50:01] IT SHOULD JUST A HUNDRED PERCENT GO THROUGH YOU, ANNETTE, IN THE FIRST PLACE. I MEAN, I, I THINK IT'S ON THE STAFF TO LET YOU KNOW, HEY, THIS IS A MAJOR REQUEST SEPARATE FROM A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST. BUT I THINK IT'S ON US TO BE ABLE TO GET BACK TO YOU IN A PROFESSIONAL MANNER THAT HEY, THIS IS GONNA TAKE US LIKE THREE DAYS TO DO THIS, SO WE'RE GONNA ASK ANNETTE TO TALK TO THE COUNCIL ABOUT WHETHER THE COUNCIL REALLY WANTS THIS OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T KNOW HOW MANY HOURS IT WOULD TAKE FOR US TO DO SOMETHING. SO I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD, WE WOULD EXPECT YOU TO KNOW THAT IN ADVANCE, BUT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE THAT TO YOU WITHOUT ANY KIND OF, UM, FEAR OF NEGATIVE REACTION. YOU KNOW, IF SOMETHING IS A MAJOR PROJECT AND WE NEED TO HAVE A BIGGER DISCUSSION BEFORE WE GO FORTH AND DO IT, I'VE GOT ANOTHER QUESTION ON THREE. OKAY. SO ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THAT ANSWER? I, I MEAN IT REALLY COMES BACK TO ANNETTE, YOU KNOW, YOU AND STAFF PUSHING BACK WHEN YOU NEED TO PUSH BACK. SIMPLE AS THAT. AND IT JUST FEELS LIKE THAT HASN'T HAPPENED AS FREQUENTLY AS IT SHOULD HAVE IN THE PAST. AND, UH, YOU KNOW, FROM MY OWN ONE VOICE, I WOULD JUST SIMPLY SAY, PLEASE PUSH BACK ON US IF WE'RE UNREASONABLE. ONE OF THE SUGGESTIONS FROM THE INVESTIGATION BY STACEY WAS THAT WE UPDATE THE H THE OUR HUMAN RESOURCE POLICIES FOR STAFF TO, TO LET THEM KNOW THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THAT AND THAT THEY SHOULDN'T BE COMMUNICATING DIRECTLY WITH COMMISSIONERS WITHOUT, UM, CITY MANAGER'S PERMISSION. UH, SO I THINK THAT WOULD HELP AS WELL. SO, AND THAT'S BEING LOOKED AT, IS THAT BEING YEAH, THE HR POLICIES ARE ALL SET FOR REVIEW. RUSS IS GETTING READY TO START KICKOFF THOSE WHOLE THINGS. UM, SO A COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW OF THOSE. UM, UH, BUT YEAH, IT'LL TAKE A, THAT'LL TAKE A COUPLE OF MONTHS TO GET THROUGH 'EM ALL, BUT THEY'RE GETTING READY TO START LOOKING AT THOSE. SO, AND THAT WILL BE INCLUDED IN YES, WELL THERE IS ALREADY A PROVISION IN OUR INTERNAL PERSONNEL POLICIES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, EMPLOYEE, UM, ENGAGEMENT WITH THE MARYLAND COUNCIL, AND I ALREADY SENT OUT A CITYWIDE REMINDER OF WHAT'S IN THAT. UM, SO WE'LL CONTINUE, YOU KNOW, TO EDUCATE PEOPLE AND I THINK THE POINT IS WE WANNA SUPPORT PEOPLE IN GETTING THE WORK DONE ON BEHALF OF THE COMMUNITY. WE WANNA SUPPORT THE COUNCIL IN GETTING YOUR INITIATIVES ACHIEVED. WE, I DON'T WANT THIS TO BECOME LIKE AN ADVERSARIAL OR A NEGATIVE THING. IT'S ALL ABOUT HOW CAN WE WORK REALLY WELL TOGETHER TO DO LIKE THE BEST WE CAN FOR THIS COMMUNITY AND NOT, YOU KNOW, STEP ON PEOPLE'S TOES OR WHATNOT. AND SO FROM THE STAFF PERSPECTIVE, THEY ALL ARE WANNA DO WHAT, UM, IS ASKED OF THEM AND DO THE RIGHT THING FOR THE COMMUNITY. I THINK IT'S JUST THOSE LITTLE NUANCES OF UM, WHETHER THE FULL COUNCIL OR A MAJORITY OF THE COUNCIL SUPPORTS SOME MAJOR DIRECTION, UM, IF IT'S NOT CLEAR. SO, SO ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THIS SECTION? I THINK SO. UM, I, I DON'T KNOW HOW, I GUESS UNDERSTAND, I MEAN IF THE STAFF CAME TO ME AND SAID, THIS COUNSELOR'S DISRUPTING, DISRUPTING ME FROM MY JOB, THEN I WOULD COME TO THE MAYOR AND SAY, I HAVE THIS EXAMPLE. CAN WE TALK THROUGH LIKE WHAT YOU NEED OR WHAT THE COUNCIL NEEDS? UM, I THINK THAT'S THE PART, IT'S A LITTLE BIT OPEN-ENDED. WHAT DISRUPT FROM THEIR JOBS MEANS, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE JOB THEY PERFORM, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S DISRUPTING. I GUESS IT'S GONNA BE CASE SPECIFIC, RIGHT? SO THAT I THINK IT'S DOWN TO FIVE, ALL COUNSELOR REQUESTS FOR RESEARCH INFORMATION OR ANY OF THEIR STAFF PROJECTS SHALL BE DIRECTED TO THE CITY MANAGER OR CITY ATTORNEY. MM-HMM . I THINK SOME OF THE EXAMPLES THAT I'VE SEEN AND HEARD ABOUT ARE, YOU KNOW, AN INDIVIDUAL PERSON FROM THE COUNCIL, YOU KNOW, WANDERING THE HALLS AND GO POKING THEIR HEAD INTO PEOPLE'S OFFICES AND DISRUPTING 'EM THAT WAY OR BEING HERE ALL THE TIME AND WANTING CERTAIN THINGS DONE FOR THEM. AND WHILE INDIVIDUALLY THOSE THINGS MIGHT BE VERY SMALL, IT'S JUST LIKE THE VOLUME AND FREQUENCY THAT BECOMES DISRUPTIVE. SO, UM, I'M SURE THAT'S WHAT THIS IS JUST TRYING TO ADDRESS IS THERE'S A CHAIN OF COMMAND AND THERE'S, UM, OUT OF RESPECT OF THE COUNSELORS AMONGST EACH OTHER ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TRYING [01:55:01] TO ACCOMPLISH. AND THEN, UM, BEING MINDFUL OF THE FACT THAT STAFF HAVE A LOT ON THEIR PLATE. SO IF THEY'RE GETTING CONSTANTLY INTERRUPTED, THAT'S NOT EFFECTIVE. BEFORE I WAS ON COUNCIL, I WAS AWARE OF A COUNSELOR WHO WOULD SEND LIKE 20 PAGES OF QUESTIONS TO A SPECIFIC DEPARTMENT HEAD BEFORE A COUNCIL MEETING AND THEN HAVE ANOTHER 20 PAGES AT THE COUNCIL MEETING. AND THAT DEPARTMENT HEAD WHO NO LONGER IS WITH THE CITY ACTUALLY COMPLAINED TO A RESIDENT ME ABOUT THAT COUNSELOR. SO THAT, THAT VIOLATES A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS HERE. BUT YEAH, SO THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS THERE TO UNPACK. FIRST, I WOULD HOPE THAT NONE OF OUR CURRENT EMPLOYEES WOULD GO OUTSIDE THE CHAIN OF COMMAND TO COMPLAIN ABOUT COUNSELORS TO OTHER COUNSELORS. I DON'T THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE OR PROFESSIONAL AT ALL. NOT OTHER COUNSELORS CANDIDATE A CITIZEN, A NON COUNSELOR CITIZEN. UM, AND THEN WE HAVE UPDATED THE TIMING OF OUR DISTRIBUTION OF THE PACKET TO HOPEFULLY GIVE YOU MORE TIME SO THAT WE CAN ANSWER ALL THOSE QUESTIONS IN ADVANCE OR AT LEAST KNOW WHAT YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE IN ADVANCE SO THAT STAFF'S PREPARED FOR THE COUNCIL MEETING TO BE ABLE TO ANSWER THEM. SO AGAIN, I FEEL LIKE OUR ROLE IS TO SUPPORT YOU IN DOING YOUR WORK. SO IF YOU HAVE 20 PAGES OF QUESTIONS, THEN EITHER THE AGENDA BILL WASN'T CLEAR OR, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO SPEND SOME TIME WITH THAT PERSON. BUT, UM, I I, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO, IT'S HARD TO BE SUPER SPECIFIC IN THIS ARENA BECAUSE WE WANT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS AND WE WANT THE PUBLIC IN THE WHOLE SPIRIT OF TRANSPARENCY AND ALL THAT, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ASK ALL THE QUESTIONS YOU NEED TO ASK. I JUST WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE HEADS UP SO THAT WE'RE PREPARED, UM, AND AND ABLE TO ANSWER WHATEVER IT IS YOU GUYS WANT OUT INTO THE PUBLIC DISCUSSION. UM, AND THEN AGAIN, JUST RESPECTING THE, UM, AMOUNT OF WORK AND ASSIGNMENTS AND HOW WE MAKE ASSIGNMENTS TO INDIVIDUAL STAFF TO TRY TO, UH, MEET ALL OF THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNCIL AT THE HIGH LEVEL PLUS OUR REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS AND ALL OF THAT. AND NOT HAVING, UM, ANY ONE COUNSELOR GOING STRAIGHT TO A LINE LEVEL STAFF AND ASKING HIM TO DO A SPECIAL PROJECT OR SOMETHING. RIGHT. KATHY AND THEN DEREK. TWO THINGS IN THE, IN THE EXAMPLE THAT WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING ABOUT SOMEBODY HAVING PATIENT, PATIENT QUESTIONS, BUT IF THAT WAS FOLLOWING THE CORRECT PROTOCOL AND WENT TO, LET'S JUST SAY IT WAS ON A ZONING ISSUE, SO IT WENT TO CALM DEV MM-HMM . BUT YOU WERE CC'D ON IT, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW IF THERE WAS A PROBLEM WITH THE AGENDA BILL. SO THERE'S THAT, THAT IT, THAT SHOULD BE CLEAR, RIGHT? CORRECT. OKAY. UM, UM, THE SECOND QUESTION THAT I HAD HAD TO DO WITH BEFORE, YOU SAID IF THERE WAS, IF THERE WAS A CASE OF COUNSELOR THAT WAS LIKE ROAMING THE HALLS AND POKING THEIR HEADS IN OFFICES AND IT WAS JUST GENERALLY DISRUPTIVE, I THINK I HEARD YOU SAY THAT YOU WOULD TAKE IT TO THE MAYOR AND I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST THAT I, I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S THE APPROPRIATE WAY AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY. BECAUSE ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT CAME UP RECENTLY WAS THE FACT THAT SOME COUNSELORS WERE UNAWARE OF A PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR THAT HAD BEEN EXHIBITED AS A PATTERN BECAUSE INFORMATION WAS BEING CONCENTRATED ONLY AT THE THE TOP. WHEREAS WE ACT AS A BODY AND ARE ALL OF OF SUPPOSEDLY EQUAL WEIGHT UP HERE WITH CERTAIN EXCEPTIONS THAT ARE OUTLINED. SO I WOULD, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IN A SITUATION THAT EITHER YOU DIRECT IT TO THE COUNCIL DIRECTLY AND IF THERE'S NOTHING ELSE, THAT IT GO TO THE ENTIRE COUNCIL, NOT JUST TO THE MAYOR BECAUSE YOU'RE EMPOWERING AT THAT POINT THE MAYOR WITH A PERSONNEL DECISION OR, OR ASSISTANCE THAT I THINK IS INAPPROPRIATE AND WHAT PART OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS, BECAUSE IN THE PAST MAYORS MAY HAVE FELT THAT THEY HAD A PLACE IN PERSONNEL DECISIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING BROUGHT IN ON A LEVEL LIKE THAT. SO IN TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM, AND THIS GOES BACK TO WHAT I SAID BEFORE ABOUT WHERE I'LL BE TALKING ABOUT THESE, THESE DUTIES AND THE SEPARATION BECAUSE I THINK, I THINK, AND SOMEBODY MADE THE COMMENT BEFORE ABOUT HOW IT'S PUBLIC PERCEPTION, BUT HOW WE SET TONE AS WELL IS AIDS OR ABE'S PUBLIC PERCEPTION BY DIFFERENTIATING THE MAYOR OUT OF DIFFERENT INTO DIFFERENT ROLES. I THINK WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT NOT DOING [02:00:01] THAT. AND I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN KNOWING, UH, FROM THIS GROUP, YOU KNOW, IF AN ISSUE ARISES WHERE I DO NEED TO RESOLVE A PROBLEM WITH, UM, BEHAVIOR OF SOMEBODY ON THE COUNCIL, LIKE HOW DO YOU WANT ME TO ADDRESS THAT OR RAISE THAT OR BRING IT UP? SO IN THE PAST, I THINK IT WAS THROUGH THE MAYOR AND THE VICE MAYOR BECAUSE THEY'RE, THAT THE ONES RULES THAT WHAT IT SAYS IN OUR RULES, WHICH I'M GOING TO ADDRESS WHEN WE GET THERE FOR ENFORCING, YOU KNOW, THESE, ALL OF THESE RULES. SO THAT'LL BE AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION IF THAT'S SOMETHING YOU GUYS WANT TO CHANGE. SO, WELL, LET'S WAIT TILL WE GET TO THAT SECTION 'CAUSE IT'S NOT CONTAINED IN THE LANGUAGE HERE. THAT'S OKAY WITH YOU. OKAY. JUST BECAUSE YEAH, IT WAS SPECIFIC TO WHAT IT HAD HAD SAID. ALRIGHT, SO OTHER QUESTION ON THREE. YEAH. I'M CURIOUS, CONCERNED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE INCLUSION OF OUR FORMER CITY STAFF WORDS IN THIS DOC IN THE, IN THIS RULE, UNDERSTANDING THE RECENT CIRCUMSTANCES COMPLETELY. BUT WE CERTAINLY HAVE MEMBERS IN OUR COMMUNITY WHO ARE A DELIGHT TO TALK TO, WHO ARE LONG TIME RETIRED CITY STAFF AND WHO GIVE GREAT INPUT ON, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE COMMUNITY PLAN USED TO BE OR WHAT LDC USED TO BE OR IDEAS FOR LDC. SO I I AND THE IDEA OF HAVING TO GO THROUGH THE CITY MANAGER EVERY TIME I TALK TO THEM, IT'S NOT, DOESN'T QUITE SIT RIGHT. YEAH. I DON'T, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY RIGHT TO, UM, DIRECT INTERACTION WITH FORMER CITY. THEY'RE CITY STAFF. THEY'RE, THEY'RE A CITIZEN. UM, IT'D BE LIKE SAYING YOU CAN'T GO TO YOUR NEIGHBOR , YOU KNOW, I, IT'S, IT'S, I MEAN I UNDERSTAND WHY, BELIEVE ME, I UNDERSTAND WHY AND IT'S A PROBLEM. BUT AGAIN, I THINK WE'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS A PROBLEM, BUT WE'RE GOING ABOUT IT BY REGULATING THE WRONG BEHAVIOR. THAT'S WHAT, NOT WHAT NEEDS TO BE REGULATED. IT WAS THE PATTERN OF IT IS LIMITED TO, YOU KNOW, CITY RELATED BUSINESS. SO IT'S NOT LIKE, YOU KNOW, I, I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT I'M, THERE WAS A LIMITATION THERE. THE, THE IMMEDIATE PAST CHAIRPERSON OF THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION IS A FORMER CITY EMPLOYEE. CORRECT. AS AN EXAMPLE. AND WHAT IF WE WANTED TO REACH OUT TO A FORMER, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY WHO USED TO WORK IN THAT WE TALKED TO FORMER, FORMER CITY MANAGER OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, SO IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S THREE FOR REMOVING OR FORMER CITY STAFF. YEAH, I THINK THE ONLY FOUR CLARIFICATION, UM, AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE IN THIS SECTION OR EVEN IN THIS AT ALL BECAUSE I THINK YOU WOULD GET A DIRECT COMMUNICATION FROM THE ATTORNEY ABOUT THIS, BUT, UM, IN ONE PARTICULAR CASE, WHY FORMER CITY STAFF IS AN ISSUE IS, UM, YOU KNOW, FOR CURRENTLY IN LITIGATION MM-HMM. YEAH. OVER AN EMPLOYMENT MATTER. UM, I BELIEVE THE COUNSEL RECEIVED SOME KIND OF NOTIFICATION NOT TO ENGAGE WITH ANYBODY THAT COULD BE PART OF THAT. MM-HMM . LAWSUITS WAS NOT TO INTERFERE WITH THE LITIGATION. UM, BUT THAT'S, YOU KNOW, A VERY SPECIFIC INSTANCE. NOT, UH, YOU CAN'T TALK TO ANYBODY THAT EVER WORKED HERE BEFORE. SO I, I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH YOU TALKING TO OTHER CITY OR FORMER CITY STAFF. I THINK IT'S IN THE CONTEXT OF IF WE'RE IN LITIGATION OVER A AND I DO THINK WE NEED SOMETHING ABOUT THAT 'CAUSE THAT'S NOT COVERED ANYWHERE. YEAH. I THINK THAT NEEDS TO BE REALLY EXPLICIT 'CAUSE WE HAVE THAT SITUATION HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. CORRECT, DEREK? YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY, I DON'T, I DON'T THINK THAT CONTACT WITH FORMER CITY STAFF SHOULD BE ADDRESSED HERE, SUBJECT TO THE CAVEAT THAT IF THERE'S AN ONGOING MATTER MM-HMM . NOW THE, THE PROBLEM I THINK WITH THAT IS, OKAY, SO HOW DO WE DEFINE WHO WE CAN AND CAN'T TALK TO KURT? I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU WOULD, I MEAN, WOULD YOU SEND AN EMAIL SAYING THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE POTENTIAL WITNESSES IN X, Y, Z LITIGATION, PLEASE DON'T COMMUNICATE WITH THEM. OR I MEAN, HOW WOULD WE DO THAT? BECAUSE I MEAN, I MAY REACH OUT TO A FORMER EMPLOYEE NOT KNOWING THAT A POTENTIAL WITNESS IN A WHATEVER. UM, SO I MEAN I I I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO BE MINDFUL OF THAT. I DON'T KNOW THE THE RIGHT WAY TO ADDRESS THAT. BUT, UM, THE ONLY OTHER THING I WAS GONNA SAY IN, IN G THREE IS DO WE WANNA SAY, UH, COUNCILORS SHALL AVOID DISRUPTION AS OPPOSED TO SHOULD AVOID DISRUPTION? I WAS, I WAS WRITING THAT DOWN. UM, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ADDRESS YOUR FIRST POINT COUNCILOR FAF, BUT I CAN CERTAINLY, AND I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT WOULD BEST FIT IN HERE. 'CAUSE THIS IS MORE COUNCIL RULES OF PROCEDURE, NOT CITY ATTORNEY, [02:05:01] UM, RULES OF PROCEDURE. BUT IT MIGHT FIT IN HERE SOMEWHERE. UM, SO LET ME LOOK AT THAT. UM, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WE OBVIOUSLY KNOW WE SHOULDN'T BE SPEAKING TO, BUT IN SOME CASES WE MAY NOT REALIZE THAT THERE'S A CONNECTION AND I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THAT. WE DON'T WANT TO UNDERMINE OUR DEFENSE OR PROSECUTION OF A LAWSUIT BY TALKING TO SOMEBODY THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE. YEAH. AND THEN I'M ALSO, I'M FINE CHANGING IT TO SHALL INSTEAD OF SHOULD YEAH. LET'S NOT GET INTO THE BIG DEBATE ABOUT SHALL VERSUS SHOULD, BUT THEY HAD DIFFERENT LEGAL MEANS. BUT THEY DO AND, AND I, I AGREE WITH COUNCILOR FAFF HERE. THIS IS A SHALL OKAY, SO I THINK WE HAVE AGREEMENT ON THAT AND THEN YOU'LL FIND SOMEWHERE TO PUT THE YEAH, I'LL HAVE TO LOOK THROUGH THE RULES AGAIN TO SEE WHERE THAT MIGHT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I MEAN WE COULD, 'CAUSE AGAIN, IT'S NOT SO MUCH COUNSELOR CONDUCT, IT'S MORE CITY ATTORNEY CONDUCT TO LET COUNSEL KNOW WHAT'S, YOU KNOW, PENDING LITIGATION, WHO YOU SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T TALK TO. UM, SO IT MIGHT FIT IN HERE, BUT I'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT. AND WE DID ALSO NOT HAVE THE CITY ATTORNEY IN THIS LANGUAGE AS WELL. IT'S JUST ARE WE TRYING TO BE COMPLETE EVERYWHERE OR DO WE NOT NEED TO BE COMPLETE? SO, YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING ABOUT THAT UP ABOVE. IN THE CASE OF THE CITY MAGISTRATE, THEY ARE MORE HIS EMPLOYEES. UM, BUT IN, IN MY CASE, UH, MY EMPLOYEES ARE ARE ULTIMATELY THEY'RE ALL NETTES EMPLOYEES. LIKE THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT, I'M JUST A DEPARTMENT HEAD IN THAT SCENARIO SENSE. RIGHT. THEY'RE NOT, I'M NOT AN INDEPENDENT LIKE THE COURT WHERE THEY GET TO KIND OF DO THEIR OWN HIRING, FIRING, I SUBJECT FULLY TO THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OR THE HR POLICIES. I WORK THROUGH HR WHEN I'M HIRING OR DISCIPLINING AN EMPLOYEE. UM, IS THAT BY YOUR CHOICE OR IS THAT REQUIRED BY COMMON PRACTICE? I THINK, UH, BOTH. MOST CITIES DO THAT THAT WAY. THAT'S THEY'RE, THEY'RE CITY EMPLOYEES, NOT CITY ATTORNEY EMPLOYEES. BUT YOU DON'T WANT US TO GO TO ANNETTE TO ASK IF WE CAN TALK TO ONE OF MY NO. SOMEONE IN YOUR OWN ONE OF NO. IT, YEAH. SO, UM, SO THE, THEY, THAT'S WHY BACK TO COUNCILOR FURMAN'S POINT, OH, WE DON'T NEED TO PUT JUST, YOU KNOW, CITY APPOINTEES HERE FOR EVERY SINGLE TIME. THEY ARE, THERE ARE NUANCES AT DIFFERENT TIMES. UM, IT MAY BE A LOT TO PUT IN THERE ALL OF MY CHAIN OF COMMAND TOO, YOU KNOW, OR THE CITY ATTORNEY AND THE ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY OR THE CITY MAGISTRATE OR COURT, YOU KNOW, UH, I MEAN WE COULD CHANGE IT TO, MUST BE DIRECTED TO THE CITY MANAGER OR CITY ATTORNEY OR DESIGNEES IF YOU WANTED IT. NOT QUITE SO. OKAY. YEP. ANYBODY ELSE HAVE ANYTHING ON THREE? OKAY. MOVING TO FOUR, ANYTHING ON FOUR? NO. OKAY. HOW ABOUT FIVE MOVING FAST? MY ISSUE IN FIVE WAS ALREADY ADDRESSED. RIGHT. OKAY. HOW ABOUT SIX I? SO IS THERE A WAY TO BEEF THAT UP? ? I MEAN IT'S PRETTY, I GUESS IT'S, IT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE WANT LANGUAGE WISE. IT WAS VIOLATED. SO HOW DO WE, IS THERE SOMETHING WE NEED TO DO TO CHANGE IT TO MAKE IT MORE CLEAR SO THAT IT'S NOT VIOLATED IN THE FUTURE? IS, IS THAT REALLY THE PROBLEM AS OPPOSED TO JUST NOT ADHERING TO THE RULE AND THEREFORE WE IMPLEMENT OUR CONSEQUENCES? I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. YEAH. IT WAS WORTHY OF NOTING. AND YOU ALSO HAVE RECENTLY ADOPTED A FORMAL PROCUREMENT POLICY. UM, SO THAT, THOSE ARE THE RULES FOR THE STAFF TO FOLLOW AS WELL AS, UM, I GUESS THE COUNCIL, WE COULD, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S NECESSARY TO REFERENCE IT IN HERE THAT THE COUNCIL, YOU KNOW, WOULD YOU THINK YOU'D LIKE TO REFERENCE IT HERE? UH, [02:10:01] IT'S SUBJECT TO THE CITY'S PROCUREMENT POLICY. UM, YEAH, WE COULD PUT THAT IN. MM-HMM . I'M JUST GONNA PUT A, A NOTE HERE AND WE'LL GET SOME LANGUAGE. MM-HMM . SO I, I HAVE SOMETHING ON SEVEN. ARE WE, UH, ANYBODY ELSE HAVE ANYTHING ON SEVEN? YES. OKAY. GO AHEAD. WELL, NO, WHY DON'T YOU GO FIRST? WELL MIGHT COVER MINE. I, IT MIGHT, I THINK THAT WE'RE, WE'RE AT A DISADVANTAGE WHEN IT COMES TO CITIZEN COMPLAINTS BECAUSE LET'S SAY WE GENERALLY ALL GET A COPY AND I ASSUME GENERALLY WE ALL REFER WHEN WE NEED FURTHER INFORMATION AND IT'S SOMETHING TECHNICAL OR DETAILED, BUT WE HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT ANY OF THAT. RIGHT. I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD CHECK WITH THE MAYOR BECAUSE THAT WOULD VIOLATE POTENTIALLY THE OPEN MEETINGS LAW. SO I THINK IT HAS TO BE THE CITY MANAGER. I DON'T THINK IT CAN BE THE MAYOR. I THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE THAT OUT. UH, BUT IT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO KNOW, UH, THAT'S WHY SOMETIMES I SAY, ANNETTE, CAN YOU RESPOND TO THIS ON BEHALF OF US AS OPPOSED TO EACH? AND, AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE CAN'T ALL WRITE TO THAT PERSON. 'CAUSE I SOMETIMES SAY, I'VE SENT YOUR REQUEST TO THE CITY MANAGER AND SHE WILL BE RES RESPONDING TO YOU. UH, BUT IT'S CONSISTENT INFORMATION TO THE COMPLAINANT. I GET CONCERNED ABOUT THE CONSISTENCY OF THE INFORMATION AND THAT WE KNOW AND YOU'RE GOOD AT THIS, BUT THAT WE KNOW IT'S BEEN RESPONDED TO. YEAH. UM, AND DEPENDING ON WHAT THE COMPLAINT IS, UM, A LOT OF IT CAN ALSO BE HANDLED MUCH MORE QUICKLY AND EFFICIENTLY IF THE PERSONS ARE REFERRED TO OUR, UM, COMPLAINT PORTAL OR WHATEVER WE CALL THAT ONLINE SYSTEM THAT YOU'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH. BECAUSE SOME OF THE COMPLAINTS ARE, OH, I THINK THIS PERSON CUT DOWN THE WRONG TREE. MM-HMM . OR I THINK THIS IS A WEED VIOLATION. OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. UM, AND I'M NOT ALWAYS AT MY DESK. I DON'T ALWAYS SEE THE EMAIL TILL LATER IN THE DAY. AND THEN I TURN AROUND AND SEND IT THROUGH THE CHANNEL THAT WAY. AND SO IT'S JUST NOT AS FAST OF A RESPONSE FOR THINGS LIKE THAT. SO I DON'T KNOW IF UP IN THIS SECTION YOU CAN ALSO REFER PEOPLE IF YOU DON'T ALREADY HAVE THE LINK WHERE THEY CAN REPORT THAT CONCERN AND THEN PUBLIC WORKS OR WHOEVER CAN GET ON IT RIGHT AWAY WITHOUT HAVING TO WAIT FOR ME TO SEE IT. BUT IF IT'S A COMPLAINT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE THAT WOULDN'T BE HANDLED THROUGH CODE ENFORCEMENT OR A PUBLIC WORKS COMPLAINT OR WHATEVER, YES. SEND THOSE TO ME SO I CAN LOOK INTO THEM. ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE FEELING LIKE THEY DIDN'T GET PROPER SERVICE, CUSTOMER SERVICE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND SO HOW DOES THAT WORK? SO IT GOES INTO THE PORTAL, WHO, WHO SEES THAT? OUR OFFICE AND WHAT DO YOU, AND WE FACILITATE IT, WE THEN FORWARD IT TO THE APPROPRIATE DEPARTMENT AND PUT IT, UH, SOME RESPONSES IN THAT'S IN PROCESS. AND FOR INSTANCE, WE GIVE IT TO TONY AND HIS STAFF FOR IF IT'S A CODE ENFORCEMENT ISSUE. AND THEN THOSE RESPONSES, ONCE THEY'RE ENTERED IN THE PORTAL WITH THE PERSON'S EMAIL, THEY GET A NOTIFICATION. YEAH. AND SO IT'S A DATABASE THAT TRACKS ALL THOSE COMPLAINTS. THE RESOLUTION TO THE COMPLAINT, THE CORRESPONDENCE TO THE PERSON THAT HAS COMPLAINED, THE CLOSURE OF IT. UM, SO IT'S ALL DOCUMENTED WITHIN THAT SYSTEM, WHICH IS HELPFUL. YEAH. DO WE HAVE ACCESS TO THAT TO SEE THE RESULTS? YEAH, IT'S ON THE CITY WEBSITE UNDER, UM, AND I THINK YOU CAN LOOK UP ANY NUMBER OR TYPE OF COMPLAINT AND VIEW. MOST OF THEM ARE PUBLIC, UNLESS THEY'RE SUBMITTED ANONYMOUSLY. THERE'S VERY FEW THAT ARE SUBMITTED ANONYMOUSLY. UM, IF THAT'S SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE US TO LOOK AT, LIKE SOME KIND OF REPORT AT THE END OF THE MONTH OR SOMETHING, YOU'RE CURIOUS, YOU KNOW, HOW MANY DID WE GET? HOW MANY ARE CLOSED? THAT WE CAN DEFINITELY DO THAT. AND THOSE ARE, UM, PERFORMANCE MEASURES, I BELIEVE ALREADY IN THE CLERK'S OFFICE WHEN WE DO THE BUDGET. BUT WE TRY TO MAKE THAT SYSTEM AS EFFICIENT AS WE CAN SO THAT WE ARE GETTING PEOPLE OUT TIMELY TO ADDRESS. I'M INTERESTED IN TRENDS. WHAT, WHAT ARE, HOW DO YOU ALL FEEL [02:15:01] THIS IS ABOUT THE PORTAL WHERE PEOPLE PUT THEIR COMPLAINTS IN AND THEN THE RESOLUTION AND I'VE NEVER GONE IN THERE TO LOOK AT ANY OF THAT. HAVE YOU? HAVE YOU GUYS GONE IN THERE? YEAH, I MEAN, LIKE THROUGH THE WEB, UH, MOBILE, YEAH. ONLY MY OWN THAT I'VE PUT IN. YEAH. NOT SOMEBODY ELSE ELSE'S. RIGHT. WELL I'VE, I HAVE REFERRED PEOPLE TO IT WHEN THEY HAVE THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, OUR NEIGHBORS, YOU KNOW, HAVE BROAD LIGHTS AND YOU KNOW, AND I GO, YEP, WE HAVE A ORDINANCE COMING THAT'S GONNA STOP ALL THAT, BUT GO SUBMIT HERE AND QUOTE ENFORCEMENT. WE'LL GO CHECK. SO I'VE HAD THAT AND UM, I HAVE SOMETIMES GONE THEN AND FOLLOWED UP TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT I SEE A SUBMISSION, UM, FROM THEM OR THE COMMUNITY THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO REPRESENT. AND WHETHER OR NOT CODE ENFORCEMENT HAS RESPONDED SO THAT I KNOW WHETHER OR NOT I, I SHOULD TRY TO FOLLOW UP EITHER WITH CODE ENFORCEMENT OR TRY TO FOLLOW UP WITH THEM TO SAY, SO HOW DID THAT RESOLVE FOR YOU? 'CAUSE WE ALL KNOW THAT SOMETIMES THE RESOLUTION ISN'T WHAT THEY REALLY WANTED ANYWAY. THEY WANTED SOMETHING ELSE. DIDN'T GET IT. BUT YEAH, I'VE USED IT. BUT YOU HAVEN'T GONE IN THERE AND JUST LOOKED RANDOMLY. YEAH, NO, I HAVEN'T GONE IN RANDOMLY AND USED IT AS A SOURCE OF DATA. NO. YEAH. DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO HAVE A REPORT ON IT? I THINK IT, I THINK THAT THE CATEGORIES COULD SOMETIMES BE REALLY USEFUL FOR US TO UNDERSTAND. I THINK SO TOO. YEAH. I, I THINK THERE'S EVEN A, A LARGER CONVERSATION ABOUT SORT OF METRICS PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT THAT WE SHOULD HAVE AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE. AND THAT'S CERTAINLY OF INTEREST. BUT THIS SOUNDS LIKE IT'S A CONVERSATION THAT'S BEYOND THE SCOPE OF TODAY'S MEETING. SO WE COULD JUST ADD SOMETHING ABOUT, YOU CAN REFER THE COMPLAINT TO ME FOR REVIEW AND RESPONSE OR REFER THE PERSON TO WHATEVER THAT WOULD CITIZENS CONNECT. SO IF I, IF I MIGHT, I THINK, UM, JUST REACTING TO YOUR COMMENT ABOUT CONSISTENCY, UM, I, I THINK THAT IT BECOMES COMPLICATED BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL SET UP MEETINGS WITH US, NOT TELL US WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING IS. SO WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE PLANNING ON TALKING TO US ABOUT. AND OF COURSE, ALL OF US WILL ACCEPT ANY REQUEST TO MEET WITH A RESIDENT. UM, BUT THEN WHAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY DOING, YOU FIND OUT AS YOU POKE AND PROD A LITTLE BIT, THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY DOING THIS ONE-ON-ONE WITH AS MANY OF THE COUNSELORS AS THEY EITHER FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH OR THEY CAN GET AHOLD OF. AND SO THE INFORMATION WILL NEVER BE CONSISTENT BETWEEN US, YOU KNOW, SO ALL, ALL I CAN DO DURING THOSE MEETINGS IS USE A STATEMENT ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, I, I DON'T REPRESENT COUNCIL, I'M ON THE COUNCIL, BUT THIS IS MY OWN PERSONAL FEELING, UM, GIVEN WHAT I KNOW TODAY. SO THAT I TRY TO MAKE SURE THEY KNOW I COULD CHANGE MY MIND. BUT, UM, I THINK THAT THAT BECOMES WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT CONSISTENCY. IT'S NEVER GONNA BE CONSISTENT. AND THERE'S NO RULE THAT YOU CAN PUT IN HERE UNLESS WE'RE GOING TO HAVE SOME SESSION THAT WE HAVE WHERE WE TALK ABOUT WHO'S CONTACTED US AND WHAT WE'VE SAID, WHICH IS JUST A VIOLATION. RIGHT. WELL IF IT'S ON THE DIETS, I SUPPOSE IT, I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS OR IT ISN'T , BUT NO, I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT THE COM THINGS THAT COME TO, NOT THOSE MEETINGS, BUT THE THINGS THAT COME TO ALL COUNSELORS THAT ARE HIGHLY TECHNICAL AND WE GET THEM REGULARLY. AND I LIKE IT WHEN ANNETTE RESPONDS 'CAUSE THAT'S THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF THE CITY. AND THEN WE CAN ADD WHATEVER FLAVOR WE WANT IN COMMUNICATING. BUT AT LEAST THE INFORMATION COMES, YOU KNOW, OFFICIALLY AND FROM THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE DETAILS ON THE NUANCES. 'CAUSE WE CAN'T UNDERSTAND ALL OF THAT. I THINK IT'S ALSO HELPFUL WHEN WE GET AN EMAIL FROM LAUREN OR SOMEBODY SAYING, HEY, WE'RE GONNA RESPOND TO THIS. SO MM-HMM . YEAH. THAT'S ALWAYS, THAT'S VERY HELPFUL WHEN HAPPENS. YES. VERY HELPFUL. 'CAUSE THEN I DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO BE LIKE, WELL, YOU KNOW MM-HMM . OKAY, SO THEN THE ONLY THING WE'RE REALLY DOING IS TAKING THE MAYOR OUT OF THAT. BUT THE MAYOR'S STILL IN THERE. OH, I SEE. I COULD, YEAH, YOU CROSSED IT OUT. ALRIGHT, DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE? YOU HAVE COVERED IT. OKAY. SO HI HAVE SOMETHING ON H TWO. IS IT, AND THIS IS A, I GUESS MAYBE A TECHNICAL QUESTION. SO ALL THE EMAILS THAT COME FROM MY FIRM, THE LAW FIRM I WORK FOR ALL HAVE A CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE, JUST AUTOMATICALLY APPENDED TO 'EM. AND THERE'S ALSO SOME TAX THING THAT I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT MEANS. BUT, UM, THIS EXPRESSION OF EXPRESSION OF OPINION, YOU KNOW, IT'S ONLY THE OPINION OF THIS PERSON AND [02:20:01] MAY NOT BE THE OPINION OF THE ENTIRE COUNCIL. CAN IT JUST ATTACH THAT TO ALL OF OUR EMAILS AUTOMATICALLY AND THEN WE DON'T HAVE TO THEN IT'S JUST, THERE'S A STATEMENT THAT'S BEEN VETTED BY KURT THAT THEY CAN ASSIST YOU WITH THE PUTTING THAT IN YOUR SIGNATURE LINE, UNDERNEATH YOUR SIGNATURE LINE. SO IT'S ALREADY, WELL WHAT I'M ASKING IS JUST COULD THAT BE JUST, THAT'S HOW I HAVE IT. YEAH. DO YOU HAVE IT ALREADY BUILT IN? OKAY. WE'LL MAKE SURE THAT ALL OF YOUR CITY COUNCIL OUTLOOK ACCOUNTS HAVE APPROPRIATE SIGNATURE BLOCKS THAT ARE AUTOMATICALLY ADDED. GREAT. YEAH, NO PROBLEM. AND THEN I DON'T HAVE TO THINK TO PROBLEM. OH YEAH, I GOTTA PULL. THANK YOU. THAT WOULD BE GREAT. THAT'S GREAT. . THAT'S ALL I HAD. ANYTHING ELSE ON, ON H? OKAY. MOVING RIGHT ALONG. SO ON I MM-HMM . I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT I IS CONSISTENT WITH G SEVEN 'CAUSE THEY BOTH SORT OF SPEAK TO THE SAME, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE COVERING SIMILAR POINTS. UM, SO DID WE CHANGE ANYTHING THERE OR DO WE NEED TO REVISIT THIS? OR IS I, KURT, IF YOU GIVE IT A LOOK CONSISTENT WITH G SEVEN AND IF SO, DOES LIKE NEED TO BE DUPLICATED? YEAH, IT FEELS DUPLICATIVE. YEAH. ONE, YEAH. YEAH. ONE'S ABOUT COMPLAINT OF CITY SERVICES AND ONE'S ABOUT ANY COMPLAINT. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NEED BOTH. SO WHAT'S YOUR SUGGESTION THEN? LEAVE IT IN, LOOK AT IT. WELL, IN G SEVEN IT SAYS YOU MAY REFER IT TO ME AND THE ONE BELOW SAYS YOU WILL REFER IT TO ME. SO I GUESS JUST PICK IF YOU WILL ALWAYS SEND THEM TO ME OR IF YOU WILL CONSIDER SENDING IT, WHICH I PREFER YOU JUST SEND THEM TO ME. BUT, UM, THAT'S THE ONLY . SO I'M OKAY WITH WILL IF THE REST OF COUNCIL AGREES, JUST CHANGE IT TO WILL SO THAT WE JUST AUTO SEND THEM ON. WHERE IS THAT? YOU CAN DO IT AS SEVEN. NO, SIMPLY AS COUNCIL SHOULD COUNSELORS WILL NOTIFY, SHOULD CHECK. GOT IT. IT WOULD BE WILL CHECK. YEAH. SO IF YOU REPLY TO THE PERSON AND JUST COPY IT SAYS MAY REFER VERSUS SAYS G SEVEN UP HERE SAYS COUNSELOR MAY REFER THE COMPLAINT. YEAH, I DON'T, UM, I DON'T KNOW IF I WANT THAT TO HAVE TO SAY WILL OR SHALL IF YEAH, IF IT SAYS WILL THEN I GUESS ALL SEVEN YOU HAVE TO REFER IT IF IT COMES TO ALL SEVEN OF YOU. LIKE IS THAT AN OBLIGATION? I DON'T, YES. I THINK THERE'S LOTS OF THEM WE CAN JUST ANSWER. WE KNOW THE INFORMATION AND I'M NOT SURE IT ADDS ANYTHING TO REFER TO THE CITY MANAGER. WELL, BUT ANNETTE JUST SAID JUST PUT A CC JUST PUT HER ON THE CC LINE SO SHE KNOWS THAT SOME SOMETHING HAS BEEN SAID AND WHAT HAS BEEN SAID. SO IF THE PERSON THEN COMES TO STAFF OR COMES TO ANNETTE OR ONE OF THE OTHER DEPUTIES, THEY ALREADY ARE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT ONE OR MORE OF US HAVE ANSWERED WHAT WE'VE SAID. I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE INTENT WAS. SO WE CAN COM COMBINE THE TWO. I WOULD WHAT WAS THE HEADING UNDER COUNSELOR CONDUCT WITH CITY STAFF? YES. SEE, I MEAN IT KIND OF DOESN'T EVEN FIT IN G SEVEN SO MUCH REFERRAL OF CITIZEN COMPLAINTS. AND WE COULD TAKE OUT, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE CITY SERVICES. DO YOU LIKE THAT THEY, DO YOU LIKE BEING REQUIRED TO CHECK WITH THE CITY MANAGER TO SEE IF ANY ACTION HAS BEEN TAKEN ON AN ISSUE BEFORE YOU RESPOND? NO. THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I DON'T THINK REALLY RISE TO THAT LEVEL AND WE'RE, WE'RE JUST CREATING A MAILBOX YEAH. OVERLOAD. SO THEN LET'S JUST FLUTTER OUT . WELL, AND WE ALSO GET COMPLAINTS THAT THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSES SHIFT DELETE. SO I DON'T WANNA MAKE IT MANDATORY. WE GET COMPLAINTS THAT THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSES SHIFT DELETE. SO I DON'T WANT ANYTHING MANDATORY. I MEAN, WE NEED TO EXERCISE SOME JUDGMENT. IS THIS SOMETHING THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT OR IS THIS JUST SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, SCREAMING AT US FOR THE SUN COMING UP IN THE WRONG SIDE OF THE SKY? SO THAT'S KIND OF A COMBINATION OF THE TWO RIGHT THERE. BY ADDING IN THAT SENTENCE AND MAKING IT OF MAY WELL WE CAN'T DO IT [02:25:01] TO OTHER COUNSELORS. RIGHT? WELL THE CITY MANAGER CAN THOUGH. YEAH. CLARIFY THAT THOUGH, RIGHT? YEAH, EXACTLY. COPIES OF ANY RESPONSE BY COUNSELORS, CITY MANAGER MAY PROVIDE COPIES. LET'S DO THE COUNSELORS FIRST MAY BE PROVIDED TO THE CITY MANAGER OR SHOULD BE PROVIDED TO THE CITY MANAGER AND THEN PROVIDED TWO NO. DO YOU WANT, DO YOU HAVE TO RESPOND? I THINK THAT WORDS THAT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY. I THINK WE'RE SAYING THAT THE, NO, THE CITY MANAGER JUST REQUESTED THAT SHE KNOW IF YOU RESPOND, BUT THE OP, THE OPPOSITE'S TRUE TO YOU. I MEAN, UM, THE CITY MANAGER, UM, SHOULD PROVIDE ANY, PROVIDE COPIES OF ANY RESPONSES TO COUNCIL AS WELL. IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR. UH, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, ARE YOU REFERRING TO ANY RESPONSE I WRITE? YEAH. YES. THAT YOU WANT A COPY OF THAT TO GO TO THE FULL COUNSEL? I THINK I HEARD THAT EARLIER THAT YOU'D LIKE TO KNOW MM-HMM . IF I RESPOND ON YOUR BEHALF, THAT YOU SHOULD ALL GET A COPY CORRECT. TO THE COMPLAINANT COPIES OF, IS THAT WHAT WE'RE CALLING THEM? COMPLAINANT. OKAY. UH, IMPROPER INFLUENCE DOES THAT, SORRY. JUST THAT, SO THAT MEANS WE CAN DELETE IT FROM HERE UNLESS YOU WANT IT IN BOTH PLACES. I DON'T THINK YOU NEED IT IN BOTH PLACES. OKAY. SO LET ME, SO YOU TOOK IT OUT KURT? YEAH. OKAY. IMPROPER INFLUENCE. OKAY. SO IMPROPER INFLUENCE. THE, THE, THE, THIS AGAIN GOES BACK TO JUST MY, THE QUESTION WE WERE HAVING BEFORE ABOUT WE DON'T HAVE AS COUNSELORS A LETTERHEAD AND IF WE'RE PUTTING SOMETHING ON A LETTERHEAD FROM US, IS THAT REPRESENTING SOMETHING UNINTENDED OR, I MEAN, WELL THIS IS ABOUT PERSONAL. YEAH, I KNOW. BUT A COUNSELOR MAY NOT UC STUFF OR LETTERHEAD TO SUPPORT PERSONAL OR NON-CITY FUNCTION OR FUNDRAISERS. BUT AGAIN, IF YOU HAVE A LETTERHEAD THAT YOU'VE DEVELOPED FOR YOURSELF AS A COUNSELOR, HOW DOES THAT FACTOR IN HERE? I'LL JUST SAY PERSONALLY I USE MY PERSONAL EMAIL AND MY, I DON'T HAVE PERSONAL LETTERHEAD, BUT ANYTHING THAT'S NON-CITY RELATED, I JUST, I DON'T EVEN USE MY TITLE. JUST HOLLY PLU NO REFERENCE TO, TO THE TITLE. JUST I AM AS A PERSON. IT'S PROBABLY FINE. 'CAUSE IT'S SAYS NON-CITY FUNCTIONS. RIGHT. SO I JUST, BECAUSE LETTERHEAD WAS IN THERE, I WANTED TO HIGHLIGHT THAT. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT SECTION? ALL RIGHT. GIFTS. OKAY. QUESTION ON THAT. MM-HMM . KURT. REASONABLE EXCEPTIONS AS ARE PROVIDED BY REGULATIONS. WHAT, WHAT, WHAT ARE THOSE REASONABLE REGULATIONS? SO WE HAVEN'T ESTABLISHED ANY, UM, SOME CITIES WILL SET A DE MINIMIS VALUE, LIKE IF IT'S UNDER 20 BUCKS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. UM, THAT, THAT, THAT, THAT'S OKAY. UM, BUT YEAH, WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING. I BELIEVE WE HAVE A REFERENCE TO THIS TOPIC IN OUR PROCUREMENT POLICY BECAUSE THAT, UM, UM, PROHIBITION AGAINST ACCEPTING GIFTS APPLIES TO STAFF AS WELL. YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T HAVE VENDORS, YOU KNOW, SCHMOOZING OUR STAFF SO THAT THEY TURN AROUND AND PICK THEM FOR CONTRACTS OR WHATEVER. UM, SO I DON'T KNOW IF A REFERENCE TO OUR PROCUREMENT POLICY HERE AGAIN IS HELPFUL, UM, BECAUSE WE DO HAVE THAT LANGUAGE IN IN THAT, SORRY, WHAT EXACTLY DOES IT SAY IN THE PROCUREMENT POLICY? WHAT'S THE LANGUAGE? UH, I BELIEVE IT MIRRORS THE STATE STATUTE. [02:30:01] I THINK IT'S A, WHICH IS, DOESN'T IT, PETE, I THOUGHT YOU, AT ONE POINT I WAS WITH YOU AT SOMEPLACE AND YOU TOLD SOMEBODY $25 OR $20. I, I DON'T RECALL THAT. BUT THAT'S REFLECTIVE OF THE DI MINIMUS LANGUAGE. THAT'S PRETTY COMMON IN LOTS OF PLACES. YEAH, BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT. NO, WE DON'T. RIGHT. YEAH, WE DON'T, I DON'T THINK IT'S IN THE PROCUREMENT. I HAVE SOMETHING IN THERE SUCH AS SOMEBODY VERY NICELY WANTS TO, IT JUST SAYS NO GIFTS. SO KATHY AND I ARE GOING TO A MEETING AND THEY WANNA PROVIDE LUNCH MM-HMM . AND THEY SAID, PLEASE ORDER OFF THIS MENU. AND WE'RE UNCOMFORTABLE BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE GUIDANCE IS TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT IT'S ACCEPTABLE TO EAT SOMETHING THAT'S AT A MEETING WHEN THEY'RE ASKING US TO SPECIFICALLY ORDER OUR OWN MEAL. IF WE HAD AN AMOUNT THAT WOULD HELP GUIDE US. AND HOW DOES THAT DIFFER FROM, IF WE'RE GOING ON A, LET'S JUST SAY A TOUR OF, UH, FROM THE WATER COMPANY YEAH. . AND THEY PROVIDE THAT RIGHT ONE PROVIDE AS PART OF THE TOUR. IS THAT APPROPRIATE? MM-HMM . AND IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO VERY NICELY ACKNOWLEDGE SOMETHING AND GIVES US FLOWERS, IS THAT APPROPRIATE? THOSE ORCHIDS AREN'T GONNA WATER THEMSELVES, RIGHT? ? WELL, EXACTLY. WHICH THEY'RE LOVELY. SO I, I THINK MANY CITIES HAVE ADOPTED A DE MINIMUS STANDARD, YOU KNOW, 20 BUCKS, 25 BUCKS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. UM, AND SO THAT'S SOMETHING WE COULD ADOPT. CURRENTLY THERE IS, IT'S NOT, UH, ANYTHING THE CITY HAS ADOPTED. AND SO IT'S OF ANY GIFTS. AND SO I THINK IN THE PAST, COUNSELORS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CAREFUL TO BUY THEIR OWN LUNCHES. IS THE DI MINIS SOMETHING WE'D PUT IN THE RULES OR WOULD THAT HAVE TO BE AN ORDINANCE? I THINK WE, WE COULD PUT IT IN HERE AND, AND THEN THE PROCUREMENT RULES. MM-HMM . WHICH CAN BE APPROVED BY THE CITY MANAGER. WE MIGHT ALSO CONSIDER, UH, DISCLOSURE OF THAT AS WELL. IF WE HAVE A DI MINIMIS AMOUNT, WE OB OBLIGATE OURSELVES TO DISCLOSE IT SOMEHOW. THAT TAKES AWAY FROM THE DI MINIMUS. DON'T YOU THINK IT BEING, YOU'RE SAYING THAT IT'S DI MINIMIS SO IT DOESN'T HAVE, IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO BE IMPACTFUL, BUT NOW YOU'RE SAYING IT NEEDS DISCLOSURE IMPLYING THAT IT'S IMPACTFUL. I THINK THERE'S A CONTRADICTION THERE. PERHAPS NOT. LUNCH EVERY FRIDAY IS DIFFERENT THAN LUNCH FOR A MEETING, YOU KNOW, SO IF SOMEONE WAS ACCEPTING A LUNCH EVERY FRIDAY, THEN THAT'S NOT DI MINIMUS BECAUSE THAT WOULD EVER VALUE EVERY RECURRENCE THOUGH. EVERY OCCURRENCE SYSTEM HAPPENS. SO CURRENT UH, INTERNET INFORMATION SAYS THAT THE UH, DI MINIMUS STANDARD FOR A BUSINESS LAUNCH IS 50 BUCKS. INFLATION. YEAH, EXACTLY. YEAH. IT REALLY IS WHAT, YOU KNOW, IT IS REAL. WHAT IS, IF YOU WENT TO A LOCAL RESTAURANT, WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT A BILL TO BE IN SEDONA? LESS THAN 50, BUT TOO HIGH. EASILY. BUT MORE THAN 20 ? YEAH, EASILY. YEAH, EASILY 30, 30, 40. OKAY. UM, IF THAT'S OKAY WITH COUNSEL, I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT, SEE EXACTLY WHAT THE PROCUREMENT POLICY SAYS ALREADY BECAUSE IT WOULD AFFECT THAT AS WELL. AND THEN, UM, CONSIDER SOME LANGUAGE IN THIS SECTION. MM-HMM . UM, DO, UH, AND I GUESS WE'D NEED TO KNOW AN AMOUNT THOUGH. 'CAUSE IT WOULD BE AN AMOUNT. SO WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? DON'T WE USUALLY GO BY THE FEDERAL RULE? I KNOW THAT SOMETIMES, I DUNNO, THAT'S THE STANDARD PEOPLE USE WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE THEIR OWN, IT'S NOT RIGHT. LIKE, LIKE FOR MILEAGE REIMBURSEMENT. YEAH, EXACTLY. SO WE HAD SOMETHING THAT WOULD CHANGE IN AS THAT CHANGES, RIGHT? WE DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO GO BACK AND SAY $25 ISN'T THE SAME AS 30. YOU KNOW, FEDERAL STANDARDS IS KIND OF A FUNNY THING. YOU KNOW, THE STANDARD, THERE IS NO FEDERAL STANDARD . OKAY, I'LL TAKE A PLANE. , THE STANDARD PER DIEM FOR BUSINESS LUNCH IN THE US IS TYPICALLY SET BY THE GSA FOR FISCAL 25 IS SET AT $68. WHOA. HOLD ON. THAT'S ACTUALLY THE TOTAL FOR THE DAY. YEAH. 14 FOR BREAKFAST, 17 FOR LUNCH, 29 FOR DINNER. THAT'S THE PER DIEM ESSENTIALLY IF YOU'RE TRAVELING ON BUSINESS FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. I THINK THAT'S THE GENERAL NUMBER. BUT THEN THERE'S THE SCHEDULE FOR LOCATIONS. HOW ABOUT IF WE CHECK IN AGAIN WITH A COUPLE OTHER CITIES AND SEE IF THEY HAVE SOME THRESHOLD THAT THEY USE FOR, UM, WHAT I WOULD CALL LIKE GIFT VIOLATIONS OR ETHICAL. UM, AND I, AND, AND WHAT THEY, I THINK THEY DO IS ONE TO COUNSELOR FURMAN'S POINT, IT'S LIKE ONE PER PER PER YEAR OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO YOU CAN'T GET DI MINI MISS GIFTS FROM THE SAME PERSON REPEATEDLY. NO. CLARENCE THOMAS . [02:35:02] YEAH, IT'S, I MEAN IN THE PAST, THE LAST TIME I LOOKED AT IT YEARS AGO WAS 25 BUCKS. SO IT'S CERTAINLY GONNA BE MORE THAN THAT THESE DAYS. SO, BUT WE CAN LOOK AT THAT. I JUST DON'T WANNA HAVE TO DECLARE DI MINIMIS. NOT THAT I'M AGAINST DECLARING TO BE CLEAR, BUT LIKE A VERY NICE PERSON ONCE GAVE ME A PEN. I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO DECLARE A PEN EVERY TIME. I MEAN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LIKE A $10 PEN OR FIVE LESS THAN THAT. NOT, NOT TALKING ABOUT A, YOU KNOW, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE GSA ACTUALLY HAS A SEDONA RATE. OH, WHAT IS IT? UH HUH. FOR LUNCH IT'S $26. THERE YOU GO. 23 FOR BREAKFAST, 26 FOR LUNCH, 38 FOR DINNER. AND THAT IS RIGHT FROM THE GSAI WILL SEND THAT TO OUR I AMAZING ATTORNEY OVER THERE. COULD YOU, WHY DON'T YOU JUST SEND IT TO ALL OF US TOO? CAN YOU DO THAT? NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. I CAN'T DO THAT. NO, NEVERMIND, NEVERMIND. I CAN SEND IT TO JOE. SHE CAN SEND IT TO JOE. OKAY. BUT THEN CHECK WITH OTHER CITIES TOO. I THINK THAT WOULD BE VALUABLE. BUT THAT SOUNDS VERY REASONABLE. MM-HMM . SO DO WE GET TO TAKE OUR OR HOME OR NOT? I WOULD ARGUE IF YOU CAN'T RESELL IT FOR THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY ON LIKE EBAY OR SOMETHING, IT'S NOT WORTH ANYTHING. SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT FLOWERS 'CAUSE YOU'RE NOT GONNA ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO CASH IN ON SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I'LL KILL IT IN A WEEK. SO, OKAY. SO NOW WE GET INTO, OKAY. YEAH, IT'S JUST AN INTENSE DISCUSSION. FEED THIS OFF. UM, THESE BEGINNING IDEAS ARE NOT DIRECTLY FROM COUNCIL FURMAN, BUT THAT'S THE WHERE MY IDEA CAME FROM TO KIND OF ESTABLISH THIS PROCESS. AND THEN I, YOU KNOW, WE ALREADY HAD IN THERE THE TWO THIRDS RULES. THEN I WAS THINK, OKAY, IF WE'RE GONNA BUMP IT UP TO SOMETHING MORE SEVERE THAN JUST A PUBLIC CENSURE, DO WE WANT TO MAKE IT THREE-FOUR? SO I IF YOU READ THAT, YOU SAW I THREW IN THE THREE-FOURTHS, BUT AGAIN, I'M NOT, UM, NOT, UH, PUSHING OR ADVOCATING ANY OF THESE NECESSARILY STRONGLY. SO, UM, THIS IS ADDING ANOTHER LAYER ON TOP OF AN EXISTING LAYER. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY EITHER. IT COULD, IT COULD JUST BE A NATURAL OUTCOME OF A PUBLIC REC, UH, A PUBLIC REPRIMAND COULD AUTOMATICALLY BE A LOSS OF GOOD STANDING AND ALL OF THOSE LOSS OF GOOD STANDING FEATURES COULD APPLY WITHOUT REQUIRING US AN ADDITIONAL PROCEDURE AND PROCESS FOR LOSING GOOD STANDING. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? SO RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A PRIVATE SENSORS AND A PUBLIC CENSURE. A PUBLIC SENSOR COULD AUTOMATICALLY, UH, MEAN YOU'VE LOST GOOD STANDING AND ALL THESE PUNISHMENT APPLY. UM, THE WAY I HAVE IT SET UP IN HERE FOR COUNSEL JUST TO DISCUSS WAS THIS IS A SECOND PROCEDURE THAT CAN TAKE PLACE, UM, IN ADDITION TO OR IN LIEU OF THE, THE, THE CENSURE PROCEDURE. I, I'D LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT GO UP TO ONE, START WITH ONE AS OPPOSED TO THE COUNSELOR. GOOD STANDING STATUS. 'CAUSE I HAVE TO TELL YOU HONESTLY, IT WAS A REAL BURDEN FOR ME TO HAVE TWO PRIVATE C THAT ONLY CERTAIN COUNSELORS KNEW ABOUT BECAUSE THEY ASKED ME TO DO IT MM-HMM . AND THEN THE REST OF THE COUNCIL DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. I I DID NOT. IT WAS, IT WAS, I DIDN'T, BECAUSE WHEN WE THEN CAME TO THE PUBLIC CENTER, THE COUNSELORS DIDN'T HAVE ANY BACKGROUND AND I COULDN'T TELL THE FULL COUNCIL BECAUSE IT WAS PRIVATE AND WE WEREN'T GONNA DISCUSS IT ON THE DIOCESE. I THINK WE NEED A DIFFERENT RULE. I DON'T THINK THAT THAT ANY ONE PERSON, WHETHER IT'S THE MAYOR OR VICE MAYOR, SHOULD HAVE TO BEAR THAT BURDEN. SO JUST, JUST A QUESTION TO WHOMEVER CAN ANSWER. DOES PRIVATE HAVE TO MEAN THAT IT'S JUST THE INDIVIDUAL WHO'S BEING CENSURED AND SOME OTHER INDIVIDUAL? WHY CAN'T IT BE AN EXEC SESSION? RIGHT. WITH ALL OF COUNSEL THERE? AND IT'S NOT PUBLICLY DISCLOSED TO ME. THAT'S NOT A PUBLIC REPRIMAND REPRIMAND, CORRECT. RIGHT. IT'S STILL PRIVATE. IT'S JUST BETWEEN ALL OF COUNCIL AS OPPOSED BETWEEN TWO INDIVIDUALS. I AGREE WITH THAT. BUT ONE STEP FURTHER TO THAT QUESTION THAT YOU'RE CONSIDERING THERE, YOU WHEN YOU GO THROUGH IT, OKAY, SO COUNCILS, SOME OF THEM CHANGE BECAUSE OF OUR STAGGERED TERMS. SO YOU, YOU CAN ONLY HAVE SOMEBODY IN EXECUTIVE SESSION THAT WAS THERE. SO LIKE YOU HAVE A NEW COUNSELOR IN, IN AN INSTANCE THAT WE HAD THAT CAME ON WHO HAD ABSOLUTELY NO HISTORY BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH SOMETHING MAY HAVE HAPPENED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION, THEY WOULD STILL NOT BE PRIVY TO THAT INFORMATION AND HAVE THAT FOR ANY CONTEXT WHEN THEY'RE NOW BEING CALLED UPON FOR SOMETHING. SO, SO I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME WAY OF, OF, OF NOTIFICATION TO COUNCIL, COUNSELOR. COUNSELOR. ARE YOU SAYING DISCIPLINING THE NEW COUNSELOR LIKE THEY WOULD BE IN TROUBLE FOR DOING SOMETHING? NO, I'M SAYING THEY WOULDN'T HAVE CONTEXT FOR THE DISCIPLINE OF A DIFFERENT COUNSELOR. CORRECT. SO THEY, THEY HAVE ACCESS TO ALL, ONCE YOU'RE ON COUNCIL, YOU CAN GO [02:40:02] REVIEW EVERY SINGLE EXECUTIVE SESSION. YOU HAVE TO KNOW THAT IT'S THERE TO GO AND LOOK FOR IT. BUT, SO THEY CAN BE PROVIDED THAT IF THERE'S AN EXECUTIVE SESSION COMING UP, THEY CAN BE PROVIDED THAT PRIOR, UM, THOSE PRIOR MEETINGS AND BE GIVEN THAT CONTEXT. YEAH. BUT OKAY. SO THE REASON IT REMAIN DID NOT HAPPEN AND IT SHOULD HAVE, HAVE HAPPENED. THE REASON COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED REMAINED PRIVATE IS BECAUSE IT IT WAS DONE. RIGHT. YOU'RE RIGHT. RIGHT. YOU'RE RIGHT. YOU'RE RIGHT. YEAH. IT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED. YOU'RE RIGHT. SORRY. YEAH. IT COULDN'T HAVE, UH, BEFORE, 'CAUSE IT WAS A PRIVATE REPRIMAND DONE OUTSIDE OF AN AGENDIZED MEETING. SO IT COULDN'T ONLY INVOLVE THREE COUNSELORS. SO THE COUNSELOR COMPLAINING, THE PERSON RECEIVING THE REPRIMAND AND THEN THE MAYOR OR VICE MAYOR, THE FIRST, JUST SO YOU ALL KNOW, THE FIRST PRIVATE REPRIMAND, TWO COUNSELORS CAME TO ME SEPARATELY. THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT EACH OTHER HAD COME TO ME. THE SECOND ONE, UH, WAS ONE COUNSELOR AND MY, AND MYSELF. I MEAN IT WAS ALMOST LIKE SIMULTANEOUS. UH, BUT THEN I COULDN'T SHARE THAT WITH ANYBODY ELSE. AND SO YOU'RE OPERATING WITHOUT INFORMATION AND I THINK THAT INFORMATION IS RELEVANT. SO WE COULD REQUIRE IT BE DONE IN AN EXECUTIVE SESSION. MM-HMM . AGREE WITH THAT. AND BY THE WAY, THE NEWSPAPER THINKS THEY WERE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION. RIGHT. THEY KEEP WRITING THAT, UH, WHICH WAS NOT THE CASE. BUT THE, UH, I JUST FEEL LIKE THE INFORMATION NEEDS TO, EVERYONE ON COUNCIL NEEDS TO HAVE IT. I AGREE. WHY WOULDN'T ANY REPRIMAND COME BEFORE COUNCIL AN EXECUTIVE SESSION? BECAUSE OUR RULES SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT SAID DIFFERENTLY, WHICH IT SHOULD. SO LIKE TWO PEOPLE COULD SAY, HEY, SO AND SO DID THIS. I WANT YOU TO GET REPRIMANDED. AND, AND THEN YOU WOULD, I MEAN THAT JUST SEEMS ODD TO ME THAT IT IT WAS THAT MY DISCRETION. I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND IF IT'S THE RULES, IT'S THE RULES. BUT I MEAN, IT SEEMS TO BE LIKE, AS THE RULES ARE WRITTEN NOW WAS AT MY DISCRETION, BUT I DIDN'T FEEL I HAD DISCRETION AND I AGREED ACTUALLY. SO, BUT I, IT WAS A LOT TO CARRY. I DON'T THINK ANYONE SHOULD HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, SHOULDER THAT BY THEMSELVES. BUT I FEEL LIKE, I MEAN, THEN I FEEL LIKE IT SHOULD BE A VOTE. WELL, WE CAN'T VOTE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION, CAN WE? NO. NO. SO WE COULDN'T DECIDE ON A REPRIMAND. NO. THE, SO IT WOULD BE DISCUSSED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION. UM, THE REP REPRIMAND HAS TO BE GIVEN IN EXECUTIVE SESSION, BUT YOU CAN'T VOTE IN AN EXECUTIVE SESSION. YOU NOT VOTING. IT'S STILL THE SAME PROCESS EXCEPT WE'RE DOING AN EXECUTIVE SESSION. SO SOMEBODY COMES TO AND SAYS, YOU'RE SAYING JUST THE MAYOR WOULD ISSUE THE REPRIMAND, BUT IN EXECUTIVE SESSION MM-HMM . AFTER EVERYONE'S DISCUSSED IT MM-HMM . I GUESS MY POINT WAS IF YOU KNOW, ONE OR TWO COUNSELORS HAVE A COMPLAINT, DOES THAT NECESSARILY RISE TO THE LEVEL OF A REPRIMAND? BUT I GUESS IF WE DON'T HAVE THE CHOICE, BUT TO IT, IT DIDN'T AUTOMATIC IT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY. BUT OKAY, IF WE ARE GONNA CHANGE IT NOW, LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE AS OPPOSED TO THE PAST. SO IT, THE PRIVATE REPRIMAND COULD COME LATER THEN I GUESS YOU CAN HAVE AN EXECUTIVE SESSION AND I'LL DISCUSS IT AND THEN THE MAYOR CAN THEN STILL MAY IF THE MAYOR IS STILL, MAY, MAY ISSUE A PRIVATE REPRIMAND. YEAH. AND LEAVE IT OPEN TO WHEN THE MAYOR WANTS TO DO THAT. I, I CAN MEET WITH THEM SEPARATELY AFTER THE EXECUTIVE SESSION OR DO IT IN THE EXECUTIVE SESSION. BUT THEN THERE WOULD NEED TO BE SOME TYPE OF NOTIFICATION THAT WHATEVER THE DECISION WAS, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW WE DO THAT. WE CAN'T DO THAT WITHOUT OPEN MEETING LAW. MAYBE IT'S, SO WE WOULDN'T PROVIDE DIRECTION. WE WOULD JUST SAY, WHAT DO YOU, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD TALKED AMONGST OURSELVES WHETHER WE THOUGHT IT WAS LEGIT AND THEN THE MAYOR WOULD MAKE THE DECISION. IS THAT ALLOWED IN CLOSE? YOU'D HAVE TO, YEAH. YOU'D HAVE TO LEAVE IT UP TO DISCRETION OF THE MAYOR STILL, I THINK AND FORGET, SEND THE NO REPORT BACK. STILL. SEE, AND THIS IS GONNA BE AGENDIZED AS EXECUTIVE SESSION FOR THE POSSIBLE DISCIPLINING OF A PUBLIC OFFICER. IT'S GONNA BE AGENDIZED LIKE THAT, LIKE WHAT WE'VE DONE. SO FROM A PUBLIC TRANSPARENCY STANDPOINT OR LIKE RAISING A RED FLAG AND THEN SAYING, BUT WE'RE NOT GONNA TELL YOU MM-HMM . THE OUTCOME. ALRIGHT? YEP. YEP. THESE RULES ARE DIFFICULT MM-HMM . OUT OUTSIDE OF OUR CONTROL. BUT IT TRULY NEEDS TO GO TO THE WHOLE COUNCIL, I THINK. GREAT. MELISSA. WOULDN'T IT BE POSSIBLE THOUGH? AND I REALIZE IT'S GOING TO STATE THAT FOR THE PURPOSE OF A REPRIMAND, BASICALLY THERE'S NO, UNLIKE THE PUBLIC REPRIMAND, WHICH WE DID, WHICH STATED THE REASONS FOR THE REPRIMAND, THE PRIVATE ONE COULD JUST SAY A REPRIMAND WAS GIVEN OR WAS NOT GIVEN OR WHATEVER IT WAS. AND THAT COULD BE AS FAR AS IT GOES. SO PEOPLE ALREADY KNOW. I MEAN, THE, IN THE, IN THE LAST INSTANCE, PEOPLE WERE SURPRISED THAT THERE HAD ALREADY BEEN TWO PRIVATE REPRIMANDS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THESE RULES. IN THIS CASE, THEY WOULD KNOW THAT SOMETHING HAD OCCURRED AND THAT AFTER A DISCUSSION IN EXEC SESSION WITH ALL OF COUNCIL, THE MAYOR OR VICE MAYOR DETERMINED IT WAS AN APPROPRIATE ACTION TO GIVE THEM [02:45:01] A REPRIMAND. DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT WHAT THEY HAD DONE. DOES THAT UNDERCUT THEIR ABILITY TO BE EFFECTIVE? PROBABLY BECAUSE IT MEANS THEY'VE DONE SOMETHING THAT THE COUNCIL THOUGHT WAS, WAS INAPPROPRIATE FOR THEM TO HAVE DONE OR IN VIOLATION OF THESE RULES. BUT I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT'S THE RISK YOU TAKE WHEN YOU DECIDE TO VIOLATE THE RULES. RIGHT? AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S, I THINK, I THINK WE DON'T HAVE TO DISCLOSE WHAT IT WAS, BUT I THINK YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT ONE HAPPENED AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO DISCLOSE WHO, WHO IT WAS. THE PROBLEM IS THOUGH THAT IT'S THE SAME PROCESS FOR, HEY, YOU ATE ON THE DAIS, WHICH IS A VIOLATION OF RULES VERSUS YOU ENTERED INTO A PUBLIC CONTRACT, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS A VIOLATION OF THE RULES. SO IF WE DO IT YOUR WAY, THERE'S NOTHING THAT INDICATE, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, AND I'M NOT SAYING AGREE WE ONTO SOMETHING, BUT I THINK WE STILL NEED TO VET IT A LITTLE FURTHER TO GET TO THE RIGHT THING. 'CAUSE IF THERE'S NOTHING THAT SAYS WHAT SOMETHING IS, I MEAN, IMAGINATIONS CAN ALSO RUN QUITE WILD. AND WE ALL KNOW THAT SEDONA HAS NO KIND OF A RUMOR MILL , YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANNA FEED THAT. SO KATHY, JUST ONE IDEA OFF THE TOP. MAYBE THE FIRST ONE DOESN'T GET REPORTED, BUT IT'S THE SECOND PRIVATE OF THE SAME TYPE OF ACTION. MAYBE THAT'S WHEN WE TAKE A MELISSA'S IDEA OF JUST DISCLOSING THAT A REPRIMAND WAS GIVEN BUT NOT TO THE PERSON OR WHATEVER. RIGHT. SHOULD IT REFERENCE A REPRIMAND GIVEN FOR VIOLATION OF RULE, YOU KNOW, THREE X YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT SO THAT SOMETHING'S CLEAR TO THE PUBLIC. I DON'T KNOW THAT IT MATTERS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. SO LONG AS THE INDIVIDUAL IS NOT DISCLOSED RIGHT. TO THE MAYOR'S POINT, IF WE DON'T DISCLOSE WHO THE INDIVIDUAL IS, IT COULD BE ANY ONE OF US. AND SO THEREFORE NO ONE IS AT A DISADVANTAGE WITH THE PRESS OR SOCIAL MEDIA OR, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE CONSTITUENTS. IF IT OCCURS AGAIN, WELL NOW PEOPLE ARE GONNA START TO WONDER WHO, 'CAUSE YOU'RE DOING A SECOND ONE AND IF THERE'S A THIRD ONE, WELL THEN WE NAME WHO IT IS. SO I, I THINK THAT'S THE CRITICAL PIECE HERE IS HOW ANONYMOUS IS THIS DISCLOSURE? NOT REALLY WHAT THEY DID, BUT OF THE DISCLOSURE ITSELF. RIGHT. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT MAKES SENSE. REFERENCE. YEAH. JOANNE, HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED BEFORE IN YOUR TIME HERE? YOU'RE AWARE OF? NOT IN MY TIME. AND HOW LONG HAS THAT BEEN , YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER THAT . WELL, A TOTAL OF SEVEN YEARS. ARE YOU AWARE OF SOMETHING HAPPENING PRIOR TO YOUR TIME? NO. OKAY. BECAUSE YOU WERE THE DEPUTY FOR, CORRECT. YEAH. SO IT'S A RARE OCCURRENCE, BUT IT STILL NEEDS TO HAVE A PROCESS. AGAIN, I I I'M MAKING A CASE, SIR. I WOULD LIKE THE, THE RULE IN QUESTION TO BE REFERENCED AND HOW DO PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT THAT? YEAH, JUST ASK PERSON. OKAY. SO THE RULE WOULD BE REFERENCED, NOT THE INDIVIDUAL. AND WHAT ABOUT THE, ARE WE DOING THIS FOR THE FIRST AND SECOND OR JUST THE SECOND? I, I, YOU KNOW, WE INCLUDED THINGS NOW THAT I WOULD RATHER, IF IT'S SOMEONE DID A BONEHEADED THING AND IT WOULD, IT OCCURRED ONE TIME AND THEY'RE NOT GONNA DO IT AGAIN. I WOULD NOT EVEN SAY THAT RISES TO THE NEED TO HAVE EVEN THE PUBLIC ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF ONE OF US DID SOMETHING STUPID ONE TIME. I I AGREE. I AGREE WITH YOU TOO. I AGREE WITH THAT. BUT THE SECOND TIME, BUT THE SAME TYPE OF THING, RISE, YOU KNOW, IT'S, UH, PROGRESSIVE DISCIPLINE. RIGHT. WELL, AND IT'S ALSO PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR, RIGHT? SO IF YOU DO A ONE TIME BONEHEAD THING, OF WHICH WE CAN ALL DO UNINTENTIONALLY, THAT'S ONE THING. BUT YEAH. WHEN YOU START TO GET A PATTERN, I THINK THAT THAT'S A PROBLEM. OKAY. SO THAT WOULD LEAVE A, A INTACT FOR A FIRST VIOLATION THEN THE, THE CURRENT PROCESS. SO IT'S GONNA FALL BACK ON THE MAYOR TO HAVE THAT, OR THE VICE MAYOR OR THE VICE MAYOR IN THE CASE OF THE MAYOR HAVE THAT FIRST UNCOMFORTABLE MEETING WITH THE COUNSELOR. UH, BUT IT WOULD ONLY BE ONE. OH, I THOUGHT WE WERE STILL GONNA DO THE EXECUTIVE SESSION EVEN ON THE FIRST ONE. SO WE'RE WELL, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO DISCLOSE ON IF THEY'RE EATING ON THE DIET. YEAH. IF YOU, IT HAS TO BE DISCLOSED IN THE, THE SECOND ONE NEEDS TO BE AGENDIZED FOR AN EXEC AND, YOU KNOW. YEAH. RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT, [02:50:01] RIGHT. AND, AND BY THE WAY, I THINK THAT IN THE INSTANCE THAT THIS OCCURRED, THE, IT TOOK A LOT MM-HMM . COUNSELORS WERE CONCERNED PRIOR TO THE REQUEST FOR A REPRIMAND OF THE BEHAVIOR. SO THEN SOMETHING SPECIFIC HAPPENED, WHICH THEN GENERATED A FORMAL REPRIMAND, BUT PRIOR TO THAT, THINGS WERE OCCURRING THAT WERE CONCERNING TO INDIVIDUALS. SO, YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T LIKE THIS WAS JUST ONE BONEHEADED, NOBODY TOOK IT LIGHTLY. RIGHT. SO I NOW, KURT, IF YOU'RE STILL WORKING, BUT I DON'T SEE THAT THE SECOND OCCURRENCE IS AN EXECUTIVE SESSION, AN ADDITIONAL PRIVATE REPRIMAND. SO IF AFTER, YEAH, WE CAN B JUST STARTS OFF WITH CITY COUNCIL. OH, OH, OH, OH, OH. YEAH. YOU KILLED THE CITY COUNCIL IN EXECUTIVE SESSION. YEAH. YES, YES. THANK YOU. SORRY ABOUT THAT. THAT WAS A BONEHEAD COMMENT ON MY PART. I DON'T SEE THE WORD BONEHEADED IN HERE, AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE . SO THAT WOULD, DO YOU LIKE THE LANGUAGE WHERE THE MAYOR CAN SKIP RIGHT. TO, IF SO, IF IT'S EATING ON THE DAY, THEY CAN GET A PRIVATE REPRIMAND, BUT IF IT WAS SOMETHING EGREGIOUS, THEY DON'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR IT TO HAPPEN A SECOND TIME. MM-HMM . MM-HMM . AND THEY CAN SKIP, BUT IT'S LEAVING IT UP TO THE DISCRETION THERE, MAYOR OR VICE MAYOR. SO HOW ARE, HOW ARE YOU DEFINING EGREGIOUS UP TO THEIR INTERPRETATION ION. OKAY. SO AND WHAT ABOUT THE TWO THIRDS? DID YOU, SOMEBODY WANTED THREE QUARTERS, PETE, WAS THAT YOU? I, I DIDN'T, I, I I, I THINK THREE QUARTERS GETS CLOSE TO, I, I DON'T KNOW. I, I, I FAVOR TWO THIRDS. OKAY. BECAUSE THREE QUARTERS IS BASICALLY THE ENTIRE COUNCIL. YEAH. BUT THE ONE BEING . EXACTLY. EXCEPT FOR THE PERSON WHO SHOULD RECUSE THEMSELVES FROM VOTING. 'CAUSE WE KNOW HOW THEY'RE GONNA VOTE. YES. UM, IT BECOMES A FULL COUNCIL, WHICH I THINK IS NOT NECESSARY. OKAY. SO WE'LL LEAVE IT AT TWO THIRDS. AND, AND DO WE, COUNCILOR DUNN JUST MENTIONED, IS THE PERSON NOT UNDER CENSURE ALLOWED TO VOTE? IS THAT ANYWHERE IN HERE? OH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT. WELL, SO WHAT DO YOU THINK? YEAH, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THINKING BACK TO THE MEDIA, IT WOULD'VE LOOKED A LITTLE STRANGE HAD THE CENSORED PERSON NOT HAD A VOICE IN IT. RIGHT. UM, YEAH. WHICH IS, WHICH IS WHY I FAVOR TWO THIRDS, ALLOWING THAT PERSON THE REAL TO VOTE. YEAH. I ACTUALLY DON'T THINK WE HAD THE LEGAL RIGHT TO, TO TELL SOMEBODY THAT THEY CAN'T VOTE. I KNOW THAT'S BECAUSE THEY QUESTION AND, AND MY THOUGHT PROCESS ON THAT WAS, UH, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T VOTE IF IT'S A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. BUT THAT'D BE A, A, YOU KNOW, A PECUNIARY, A PROPRIETARY. SO THAT DEPENDS ON MAYBE WHAT'S HAPPENING ON FURTHER DOWN. IF THEY WEREN'T GONNA, IF THEY LOSE GOOD STANDING, WE SAY WE DO THIS NEXT PART, THEN THEY MIGHT HAVE A, A PECUNIARY INTEREST IN THE OUTCOME. AND SO THEN THEY MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO VOTE ON IF YOU DO SOMETHING MORE. BUT A CENSURE DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE ANY, UH, MONEY OR, YOU KNOW, OWNERSHIP RIGHTS ATTACHED TO IT NECESSARILY. SO I THINK THEY WOULD BE ALLOWED TO VOTE ON A, UH, PRIVATE HOUR ON A PUBLIC CENTER. OKAY. SO NOW SECTION TWO L TWO, THIS IS ALL NEW LANGUAGE, NEW PROCESS, NEW CONCEPT. PETE, DOES IT MEET WHAT YOU WERE REQUESTING IT, THE AUTOMATIC NATURE OF IT DOESN'T, AND, AND IN MY MIND WHEN I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS PREVIOUSLY IS THESE ACTIONS ACTUALLY SHOULD BE SEPARATED IN TIME FROM THE CENSURE DISCUSSION JUST TO ALLOW COOLER HEADS TO PREVAIL. THAT WAS A VERY EMOTIONAL DECISION. AND A DAY THAT WAS, AND I, I WOULD PREFER TO SEPARATE ACTIONS, AND THEN I WOULD GIVE COUNSEL THE ABILITY TO PICK AMONGST THE PALATE OF, 'CAUSE SOME THINGS WILL BE MORE EGREGIOUS THAN OTHERS. AND THE, UH, THE, UH, UM, THE JUSTICE, THE PENALTY SHOULD BE PROPORTIONATE TO THAT ACTIONS. MM-HMM . [02:55:16] AND, AND AGAIN, TWO THIRDS I THINK IS THE STANDARD. TWO THIRDS EVERYONE IN AGREEMENT ON THE TWO THIRDS MM-HMM . YEAH. OKAY. KURT. AND THERE'S A SEVEN DAY COOLING OFF PERIOD. YOU CAN MAKE IT 10. AND SO IT'S NOT NECESSARILY YEAH, I'LL CHANGE THIS TO TWO THIRDS AND THEN THE AUTOMATIC RESCISSION AFTER SIX MONTHS. I'M NOT FOR EITHER. I THINK THAT THE COUNCIL SHOULD DECIDE WHEN THESE GO OFF, EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF A REELECTION OF THE OFFENDER. IF THE, IF THE MEMBER IN BAD STANDING, NOT IN GOOD STANDING IS REELECTED, THEN I THINK IT AUTOMATICALLY RESCINDS EVERYTHING. THE VOTERS HAVE DECIDED THEY WANT THEM THERE. SO YOU CAN NEVER GET OUTTA JAIL ON THIS ONE. NO COUNSEL SEND IT BY A MAJORITY VOTE CAN VOTE TO RESCIND ANYTHING AT ANY FUTURE TIME. BUT NOT A SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF TIME, BUT NOT A SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF TIME. OKAY. NOW WHAT ABOUT MAKING THAT GO AHEAD. BUT IT WOULD TAKE AN ACTUAL, AGAIN, AGENDIZED ACTION TO RESTORE. YES. WHICH LEADS ME TO THE, DOES THE, UH, ACT OF ELIMINATING THEIR GOOD STANDING BECOME PUBLIC? YES. YEAH. SO THEN WE THEN GOING BACK AND RESTORING THEIR GOOD CONDUCT SHOULD ABSOLUTELY BE PUBLIC AND IT SHOULD BE A SURPRISE. ABSOLUTELY. AND IT COULD BE A MEASURE OF GOOD FAITH. CORRECT. YES. RIGHT. YEAH. SO THE, THIS GOOD STANDING PROCESS, THE ENTIRE THING WILL HAVE TO BE DONE PUBLICLY. YOU, I MEAN, YOU CAN HOLD EXECUTIVE SESSIONS ON IT, BUT ANY ACTIONS, VOTES, THINGS LIKE THAT WOULD ALL, THERE'S NO THE TWO YOU IS ANYBODY ELSE? I MEAN, IS THIS ALL YOUR ORIGINAL WRITING? DID YOU TAKE THIS FROM ANYWHERE ELSE? IS ANYONE I, YEAH. I COULD NOT FIND A . YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT OTHER STATES AND STUFF. I DID NOT FIND A, UM, LOSS OF GOOD STANDING TYPE. AND IT, AND IT REALLY STEM FROM, IT'S LIKE, OKAY, WELL IF WE'RE GONNA PULL, SO SOME OF THE IDEAS WERE, I CAN'T REMEMBER ALL THAT COUNCIL FURMAN LISTED, BUT IT WAS EVEN LIKE, THAT'S WHY WE LISTED THE ORDINANCE ON TODAY'S AGENDA, IS IF THEIR PAY, LIKE WE'RE GONNA DOCK THEIR PAY WHEN THEY'RE NOT IN GOOD STANDING, THE 650 OR $800 OR WHATEVER IT IS A MONTH, DO WE HAVE THE, THEN WE NEED TO HAVE A PROCEDURE FOR THAT. YEAH. YEAH. SO THE OTHER IDEAS WERE ABOUT PAY AND TRAVEL AND CELL PHONE USE. AND I DON'T KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT. TRUTHFULLY, THAT CAME OUT AT THE TIME. THE OTHER THING THAT I, UH, MENTIONED WAS, UH, WHICH WOULD HAVE TO BE RESTRICT UH, CHANGED IN GENERAL IS ABOUT THE COUNCIL OFFICE, WHICH I THINK SHOULD BE THE COUNCIL AND MAYOR OFFICE SHOULD BE A PRIVILEGE OF OFFICE HERE. UH, NOT OFFICE MEETING ROOM. IT'S NOT AN OFFICE. IT SHOULDN'T BE PERSONALIZED. IT'S A MEETING ROOM TO BE SCHEDULED. AND THAT PRIVILEGE COULD BE, UH, REVOKED AS WELL. I'M CALLING IT THE CONFERENCE ROOM WITH WINDOWS MYSELF, , AND ALL OF THESE YOU FEEL ARE LEGAL. YEAH. SO YOU'RE, AND NOT IN VIOLATION OF ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL. SO HERE'S THE ONES. WE'VE GOT PRESIDE AT COUNCIL MEETINGS REPRESENT THE CITY AND CEREMONIAL OFFICIAL CAPACITIES, UM, SERVE ON THE EXTERNAL BOARDS OR COMMITTEES OR AS A COUNCIL LIAISON. SO THEY LOSE THEIR LIAISON. I, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN RESTRICT EXTERNAL BOARDS OR COMMISSIONS WHEN THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CITY. MM-HMM . AS A, AS A CITY REPRESENTATIVE. RIGHT. RIGHT. I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE CLEAR IN THERE OF WHICH OF, OF THAT I ACTUALLY, I, I SAID BEFORE, AND I, I BELIEVE THAT, THAT WHEN THE MAYOR BRINGS THE LIST OF LIAISON DUTIES TO COUNCIL, I THINK THAT SHOULD BE COUNCIL APPROVED. AND WE'RE GONNA GET TO THAT. THEN THIS, THEN THIS ALSO LINKS THAT. THEN COUNCIL ALSO RESTRICTS THAT PRIVILEGE. YEAH. DO WE, THE ONE THAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO WRITE? YEAH. HOW ARE WE CALLING THAT THE OFFICE? WELL, WAY BEFORE YOU PUT LANGUAGE IN, I'M NOT SURE I AGREE WITH THAT ONE. ONLY BECAUSE AGAIN, THEY HAVE BEEN ELECTED BY THE PUBLIC TO FUNCTION AS A COUNSELOR. THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO MEET WITH THE PUBLIC IN CITY SPACE. UM, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE CAN RESTRICT THAT ABILITY. I MEAN, IF THEY COULD SCHEDULE, I THINK IT'S A LITTLE PETTY ACTUALLY. I HEAR THAT. YEAH. THEY COULD SCHEDULE JUST AS AN OPTION. THEY COULD SCHEDULE OTHER CONFERENCE ROOM SPACE. YEAH. [03:00:01] ALL OF US SHOULD BE SCHEDULING THE USE OF THIS COMMUNAL SPACE. BUT YEAH, WHAT KURT JUST SAID IS THEY COULD SCHEDULE ANOTHER CONFERENCE ROOM IN THE CITY. BUT I AGREE WITH YOU. YEAH, BUT I AGREE WITH YOU. I DON'T NEED TO, SO WHAT? RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT. I DON'T THINK THAT ONE, CAN I ASK ABOUT C TWO THREE? I MEAN, THAT POTENTIALLY IS PUNISHING THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT THEY SERVE ON OR THAT THEY SERVE WITH, OR THAT THEY'RE A LIAISON TO. WE COULD DESIGNATE SOMEBODY ELSE RIGHT. TO SERVE IN THAT CAPACITY IF THEY, ONCE THEY'RE REMOVED. RIGHT. I MEAN, THERE'S SOME KNOWLEDGE THERE THAT MAY BE MISSING, BUT, WELL, THESE ARE, OH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. SOMEBODY WHO KNOW SOMEBODY WHO'S BEEN THE LIAISON TO THE LIBRARY FOR HOWEVER MANY YEARS IS GONNA KNOW SOMETHING, THEN PEOPLE. BUT, BUT WE JUST SAID IT'S GONNA BE PUBLIC ANYWAY. BUT WE DON'T, AND WE DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT. THAT'S WHAT I, WE, WE, OKAY. I I WOULD JUST THINK WE WOULD NEED TO BE JUDICIOUS IN USING THAT SO THAT WE DON'T MAKE THE LIBRARY SUFFER. MM-HMM. IF THE, IT LOSES ITS LIAISON OR THE HUMANE SOCIETY OR WHOMEVER. SO I, I JUST WANNA POINT OUT THAT EVERY FOUR YEARS OR TWO YEARS, THE LIAISON COULD CHANGE ANYWAY. YEAH. RIGHT. RIGHT. SO ANYTIME THERE'S A NEW COUNCIL, THE LIAISONS COULD SHIFT DEPENDING ON WHO, YOU KNOW, WHOEVER PETES WITH TO, YOU KNOW, AND HE, IF HE DOESN'T RUN AGAIN, HE CAN'T BE ELECTED, WHICH MEANS THAT ALL OF HIS LIAISONS OR COMMITTEES THAT HE SITS ON WILL ALL HAVE TO SHIFT TO SOMEONE ELSE. MM-HMM . OKAY. SO I THINK THAT IT, IT BEHOOVES, IT BEHOOVES THE PERSON WHO CURRENTLY HAS IT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY CAN DO A NICE HANDOVER. MAYBE IF THERE'S ANYTHING IN SPECIFIC TO KNOW, BUT YEAH, I, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S ANY DIFFERENT THAN A CHANGEOVER IN COUNCIL. OKAY. WE'LL GET TO THIS LATER TOO. BUT I ALSO THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOME, ALMOST LIKE TERM LIMITS ON LIAISON SHIPS, BECAUSE THERE ARE ACTUAL LITTLE FIEFDOMS THAT HAVE BEEN CREATED WITH, YOU KNOW, COUNSELORS THAT HAVE STAYED ON A PARTICULAR ORGANIZATION LIAISON FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME AND INFORMATION ISN'T FLOWING TO THE REST OF COUNCIL. SO, BUT THAT'S IN A DIFFERENT SECTION, YOU KNOW, BUT JUST BECAUSE WE WERE SPEAKING ABOUT HERE, I WANTED TO RAISE THAT POINT. YEAH, I, I, I HEAR THAT. BUT I ALSO THINK THAT'S PART OF THE MAYOR'S DISCRETION FOR PROPOSAL. AND THEN COUNCIL DECISION TO APPROVE IT OR NOT COULD ALL BE CONSIDERED IN THAT PROCESS. RIGHT. THESE AREN'T REQUIREMENTS. THESE ARE OPTIONS. WELL, YEAH, THEY'RE, THE WAY THEY'RE IN RIGHT NOW, THEY, THESE ARE STANDARDS WE COULD JUST, THESE FIRST THREE SHALL NOT BE ELIGIBLE TO SO THEY'RE REQUIREMENTS. YEAH, THEY ARE REQUIREMENTS RIGHT NOW. THEY COULD BE CHANGED TO OPTIONS. YEAH. MM-HMM . MAKE OPTIONS. I THINK WE WANT THAT. I STILL LIKE YOU THINK SO HOPEFULLY WE NEVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS. YES, EXACTLY. WE COULD, WE COULD MAKE A MORE, A DENSE CAP DURING, IT SAYS INCLUDE, BUT NOT LIMITED. RIGHT. SO IT JUST SEEMS TO ME IT SHOULD, MAY NOT BE ELIGIBLE AS OPPOSED TO SHELLS. THE, THE, THE PART UP THERE IS MAY INCLUDE, BUT IT'S NOT, THOSE ARE THE CONDUCT THAT WOULD GET THEM TO LOSE GOOD STANDING. THE PROCEDURE AND PUNISHMENT. THE EFFECT IS DOWN IN C. SO THIS IS A COUNCIL DECISION THAT A SUBSEQUENT DATE, RIGHT? MM-HMM . YEAH. RIGHT. SHALL ELECTION OF COUNSEL. SO MAY, MAY INCLUDE BUT NOT BE LIMITED TO MM-HMM . WE CAN CHANGE IT TO THE SAME LANGUAGE. OKAY. AND THEN AS DETERMINED BY COUNSEL. MM-HMM . OKAY. SO ONE PROCEDURAL ISSUE, IT SAYS ANY COUNSELOR CAN PROPOSE THIS, AND THEN IT GETS RIGHT ON AN AGENDA AND WHATNOT. GENERALLY WE REQUIRE THREE. AND THIS PROCEDURE ISN'T NECESSARY GOING THROUGH THE MAYOR OR VICE MAYOR, LIKE THE PI, UM, PRIVATE REPRIMAND OR PUBLIC CENTER PROCESS. AND SO DO YOU WANT IT TO BE THREE COUNSELORS AND THEY, THE CITY MANAGER OR CITY ATTORNEY, OR THEY PROPOSE IT AT A PUBLIC MEETING, OR THE PROCESS OF C AUTOMATICALLY SCHEDULES THIS CONVERSATION TO HAVE CORRECT. OR A PUBLIC CENTER COULD AUTOMATICALLY SCHEDULE A MEETING ON THE LOSS OF GOOD STANDING. THOUGHTS ON THAT? ARE YOU OKAY WITH THAT, DEREK AND MELISSA? I AM. OKAY. IS THAT THE ONLY WAY THEN ONLY THROUGH A PUBLIC CENSURE [03:05:01] SO THAT WE HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, IT'LL BE A, IT'LL BE THE PROGRESSIVE DISCIPLINE. OKAY. SO THE ONLY WAY TO, TO GET TO THIS WHOLE PROCEDURE AND THE GOOD STANDING WOULD BE, UM, IF AF AFTER PUBLIC CENSURE, THIS, THIS MEETING ON GOOD STANDING IS AUTOMATICALLY SCHEDULED. SO THAT'S, I MEAN, I LIKE THAT IT'S CLEAN CUT FROM A PROCEDURAL STANDPOINT. OKAY. SO AFTER, AND THEN THE DESIGNATIONS ARE ALSO CANCELED BY REELECTION. IT'S GOTTA BE ADDED. IT'S, IT'S ON THERE. I'M SORRY, ANOTHER BONEHEAD QUESTION. WHERE IS IT? PEOPLE IN JAIL HAVE BEEN REELECTED TO THEIR POSITIONS IN SOME COMMUNITIES. THE COUNCIL AND CONVICTED FELONS PUBLIC CENTER. OKAY. WHILE KURT IS DRAFTING, I'LL COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER. I'LL REVIEW IT LATER. THE COUNSELOR SHALL BE HERE FOR A LOSS OF GOOD STANDING. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH M? OKAY. AND THEN PETE, YOU'VE HAD ONE QUESTION. SORRY, THE, NOPE, WE GOT IT. YOU GOT THE REELECTION WAS FINE. YES. I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT M. OKAY. WE HAVE TO JUST NOTE, TAKE THAT UNDER THE LIAISON DUTIES, WE'LL GOTTA CHANGE THE LANGUAGE THERE ABOUT APPROVAL BY COUNSEL, BUT THAT'S A LATER SECTION. SO I, I PUT HERE MAY INCLUDE, SO, SO THERE'S NOTHING, THERE'S NO MANDATORY OUTCOME OF THE LOSS OF GOOD STANDING, BUT I, WE HAVE A FEW POTENTIALS HERE. NEED TO REMOVE THE D AFTER INCLUDED. OKAY. OKAY. MM THREE, UH, APPOINTMENTS THROUGH A MAJORITY VOTE. COUNSELORS PRESENT SHOULD, UH, AND I'M PROBABLY FINE WITH THAT, UM, BUT WOULD WE WANNA JUST CONSIDER A MAJORITY OF MEMBERS OF COUNCIL? YEAH. SO GENERALLY, ALMOST ALL VOTES REQUIRES A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL, WHICH IS FOUR. UM, THIS WOULD BE THE ONE EXCEPTION. AND WHY, WHY IS THIS AN EXCEPTION? DON'T KNOW WHY. SO, SO THAT IF ONLY FOUR COUNSELORS ARE AT A MEETING, YOU COULD STILL APPOINT THEM WITH JUST THREE. YEAH. BUT THAT, THAT WORRIES ME. I DON'T LIKE THAT IDEA. SO FOR THE VOTE OF COUNCIL, OH YEAH. IT'S, I MEAN, IT'S LESS THAN A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL APPOINTING SOMEONE AND THEN A MAJORITY MIGHT QUICKLY DECIDE TO CHANGE THAT. SO FOR WHATEVER REASON, CAN YOU DO A RECONSIDERATION OF THE APPOINTMENT OF A COUNCIL MEMBER? YES, YOU CAN. IF YOU VOTED IN THE MAJORITY, YOU DON'T WANNA DO THAT. I THINK IT SHOULD SAY MAJORITY OF COUNSEL. THAT'S FINE. OKAY. EVERYONE OKAY WITH THAT? YEP. OKAY. YOU'RE GOING UNDER RULE THREE. ALL RIGHT. WE'RE RULE THREE. I HAVE SOMETHING FOR ITEM FOUR WHEN WE GET TO ITEM FOUR. OKAY. I HAVE THREE ITEM THREE. A THREE. ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING ON ONE OR TWO? OKAY. THREE. SHOULD WE TRY TO GET THE TIME CHANGED AGAIN? ? WELL, WHY DON'T WE BREAK? WELL, IT'S A GOOD QUESTION TO RAISE TO SUPPORT THE DECISION . WHAT? WELL, ACTUALLY LET'S, THIS IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION ABOUT IT, RIGHT? I MEAN, LET'S JUST SEE IF THERE'S ANY, UH, APPETITE. UM, COUNCIL SHOULD MEET THE SECOND AND FOURTH TUESDAY OF EACH MONTH AT 4:30 PM THE 4:30 PM START TIME. UM, IS THAT AN APPROPRIATE TIME? AND MORE TO THE POINT IS IT DOESN'T SAY WHERE THE WORK SESSIONS ARE. 3:00 PM THE 3:00 PM WORK SESSION START TIMES REALLY DO NOT ALLOW MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC WHO MAY BE INTERESTED IN ITEM TO COME AND PARTICIPATE. IT'S THE MIDDLE OF THE WORK DAY FOUR 30 THING. I CAN SORT OF SEE IT'S TOWARD THE END OF THE WORK DAY. YOU'LL LEAVE AN HOUR EARLY, WHATEVER. BUT IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT THE COUNCIL'S GOING IN DEPTH ON, WE GO IN DEPTH ON IT IN A WORK SESSION. AND SHOULDN'T THE PUBLIC HAVE IT AN EASIER OPPORTUNITY TO BE THERE FOR THAT DISCUSSION? SO ARE START TIMES, ARE THESE APPROPRIATE START TIMES TO ALLOW PUBLIC PARTICIPATION? I'D [03:10:01] BE HAPPY TO SEE BOTH OF 'EM PUSHED TO FIVE 30 IN THE, AND THE, I'M FINE. I WANT WHATEVER'S THE BEST FOR THE PUBLIC HERE. UM, THE, JUST TO, FOR DISCLOSURE OF WHAT THE REASONING WAS, WAS THAT THE, THE STAFF TIME THAT GOES IN AND THE LATENESS OF THE HOUR AND THE FACT THAT THEY MIGHT BE MAKING UP THE TIME AND ANOTHER WORKDAY AND YOU KNOW, YOU GET SORT OF A DOMINO EFFECT, RIGHT? SO THAT'S JUST TO PUT THAT OUT THERE. UM, BUT AGAIN, I, MY PRIORITY IS TO MAKE OUR MEETING TIMES AS ACCESSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC AS POSSIBLE. I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE A STRONG OPINION YET, BUT I WILL POINT OUT AN ANECDOTAL OBSERVATION, WHICH IS PEOPLE LEAVE OUR MEETINGS BEFORE THEIR ITEM COMES UP, BEFORE THEIR TIME TO SPEAK. WHETHER THAT'S AT A THREE O'CLOCK START OR A FOUR 30 START. AND AGAIN, THAT'S MY ANECDOTAL OBSERVATION. SO I'M NOT SURE WHETHER STARTING LATER IN ORDER TO ACCOMMODATE MORE PEOPLE ACTUALLY LEADS TO MORE PUBLIC INPUT. CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT YOUR OBSERVATION? PERHAPS? AGAIN, IT'S JUST ANECDOTAL AND NOT SCIENTIFIC. IS IT THOUGH, ARE, THINK ABOUT IT, IS THAT EQUAL TO THE FOUR 30 SESSIONS AND THE 3:00 PM SESSIONS? 'CAUSE THE 3:00 PM SESSIONS USUALLY ONLY COVER ONE OR TWO TOPICS. UM, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S FAR FEWER PEOPLE PRESENT FOR WEDNESDAY SESSIONS VERSUS TUESDAY SESSIONS. COULD THAT BE BECAUSE THEY START AT THREE O'CLOCK? , ? OR IT COULD BE THE NATURE OF THE MEETINGS. SO I THINK ANNETTE WOULD LIKE TO, I THINK MY OBSERVATION IS THAT PEOPLE LEAVE, BUT ANNETTE, WE WANNA HEAR FROM YOU LEAVE ON TUESDAYS 'CAUSE IT'S DINNER TIME. THAT'S SWEET. YOU KNOW, SO THERE'S LIKE THE FOUR 30 THAT INTRUDES ON DINNER TIME, AND THEN THERE'S THE OTHER CITIES IN THE VERDE VALLEY. I ASK THEM AND THEY ALL START SIX OR SIX 30. SO IT'S LIKE AFTER DINNER TIME, DEPENDING ON WHEN YOU EAT DINNER. BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S A, IT'S THAT, ALRIGHT, BUT THOSE MUNICIPALITIES DON'T HAVE THEIR MEETINGS GO FOR FIVE, SIX HOURS. THEY GO FOR ONE HOUR OR TWO IN AN EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCE. YES, EXACTLY. I'VE OFTEN THOUGHT ABOUT WHETHER ON OUR TUESDAY MEETING WE COULD START WHETHER IT'S FOUR 30 OR EVEN EARLIER AND GET RID OF THE ROUTINE BUSINESS, THE CONSENT AGENDA, THE MOMENT OF ART, THE APPOINTMENTS OR WHATEVER, AND NOT TAKE UP THE REGULAR BUSINESS UNTIL PERHAPS THE SET TIME THAT COULD BE A LITTLE BIT LATER TO FACILITATE PEOPLE COMING HERE. SO ARE YOU SAYING START EARLIER THAN FOUR 30? I DID SAY THAT THOSE WERE THE WORDS THAT LEAKED OUTTA MY MOUTH. DID, DID YOU MEAN THAT AND THAT'S, YOU HAVE PUT A WEIGH IN ON THIS SUBJECT. WELL, I DO HAVE A QUESTION FOR KURT AND MAYBE IT HELPS, YOU KNOW, WITH, UM, TRYING TO ACCOMMODATE THE PUBLIC BETTER SO THAT THEY CAN GET THEIR VOICE HEARD BEFORE YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION. COULD THE COUNCIL TAKE ALL PUBLIC COMMENT ON ALL ITEMS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MEETING SO PEOPLE COULD COME SAY THEIR, UH, INPUT AND NOT HAVE TO STAY TILL EIGHT O'CLOCK AT NIGHT TO SPEAK TO A PARTICULAR AGENDA ITEM? I, IT DID STRIKE, STRIKE ME AS VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I'M USED TO. THAT YOU TAKE PUBLIC COMMENT ON EVERY AGENDA ITEM AND NOT UNTIL YOU GET TO THAT AGENDA ITEM, BASICALLY TREATING EVERY ITEM AS A PUBLIC HEARING. UM, AND SO I DIDN'T KNOW IF THAT WAS SOMETHING BECAUSE OF HOW ARIZONA WORKS WITH PUBLIC MEETINGS LAW. BUT I, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU ALLOW THE PUBLIC TO WEIGH IN ON WHATEVER TOPIC IS ON YOUR AGENDA AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MEETING. AND THEN IF THEY CAN'T SAY STAY LONG ENOUGH TO SEE YOUR DECISION, UM, THEY'VE SUBMITTED IT AT LEAST AND THEY CAN SEE IT ONLINE. UM, IF THEY NEED TO BE BACK HOME FOR CHILDCARE REASONS, WHATEVER, TAKING CARE OF A PARENT, THEY CAN STILL WATCH THE REST OF THE MEETING ON OUR, UM, WEBCAST OR THE YOUTUBE CHANNEL. BUT AT LEAST THEY CAN'T KNOW THAT THEY CAN MAKE THEIR PUBLIC COMMENT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MEETING AND NOT HAVE TO WAIT. JUST AN IDEA. WE COULD GIVE 'EM THE OPTION TO, YOU CAN SPEAK NOW, YOU KNOW, OR IF YOU WANNA WAIT FOR THREE HOURS, YOU CAN STICK AROUND. BUT IF YOU WANT TO GET, SAY YOUR PIECE AND GET OUTTA HERE, YOU CAN DO IT AT THE ORIGINAL CALL TO THE PUBLIC. [03:15:01] THE OTHER THING I WAS GONNA ASK ABOUT IS CAN WE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WE HAVE THESE MEETINGS WHERE IT'S OBVIOUS WHAT EVERYBODY IS THERE FOR AND I REALIZED AND THAT THIS WOULD BE ANOTHER THING WE NEED TO HEAR FROM ANNETTE ON, BUT I MEAN, WE CAN MOVE THE AGENDA AROUND MM-HMM . SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE 40 PEOPLE LISTENING TO SIX AGENDA ITEMS BEFORE WE GET TO THE THING THAT THEY WANNA TALK ABOUT. SO I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S, AND AGAIN, AND WE HAVE, WE HAVE DONE THAT IN THE PAST. MY MY ONE CONCERN, ANNETTE, WITH YOUR RECOMMENDATION, THERE'S A COUPLE ACTUALLY. UM, IF PEOPLE JUST COME IN AND THEY GET THEIR CHANCE TO SAY WHAT'S ON THEIR MIND, THEY DON'T HAVE THE BENEFIT OF PERHAPS BEING EDUCATED COMPLETELY ON THE AGENDA TOPIC. 'CAUSE I DO THINK WE'VE HAD INSTANCES THAT PEOPLE HAVE MM-HMM . HAD A DIFFERENT OPINION ONCE THEY'VE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE EDUCATED ON THE TOPIC. UM, THAT'S ONE THOUGHT. AND THE OTHER IS, IS OKAY THEN IT'S A FREE FOR ALL AT THE PODIUM AND NOW WE'RE TRYING TO KEEP MULTIPLE TOPICS STRAIGHT FROM ONE PERSON TO THE NEXT AS FAR IN TURN AS, AS OPPOSED TO BEING FOCUSED. SO THOSE ARE JUST TWO OBSERVATIONS ON THAT. I MEAN, THE SAME TOKEN WOULD BE KIND OF INTERESTING TO GIVE IT A TRY AND SEE WHAT THE PUBLIC THINKS ABOUT IT. UM, SO I, AGAIN, NOT A HILL I'M READY TO DIE ON ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. YEAH. TO, TO YOUR COMMENT, VICE MAYOR, I'VE CERTAINLY APPRECIATED THE RARE INSTANCE, BUT THERE HAS BEEN INSTANCES IN THE PAST WHERE WE'VE HEAR SOMEONE SAY, WOW, THIS DISCUSSION'S BEEN GOOD. I'VE CHANGED MY MIND ON THIS POINT AND THIS POINT, WHATEVER. UH, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S KIND OF PART OF THE PROCESS. AND SO I WOULD BE UNWILLING, I WOULD BE UNWILLING TO WANNA CHANGE THE OPEN FORM AT THE START TO BE AGENDIZED ITEMS AS WELL. I DO THINK THAT IT WOULD BE A, A BURDEN ON THE CLERK TO ORGANIZE IT AS SUCH. SO IT'S NOT JUST A RANDOM , THIS PERSON SPEAKING ON EIGHT A AND THIS ONE'S ON AD AND THEN WE GET TWO MORE ON EIGHT A AND YOU KNOW, WHATEVER. IT JUST WOULD BE CHAOS. I WOULD JUST LIST THEM IN THE ORDER THAT THEY SPOKE. YEAH. AND, AND UNTIL THE PEOPLE TURN IN CARDS LATE. RIGHT, RIGHT. WE HAVE THAT ALL THE TIME. PEOPLE KIND OF MANAGE THEIR CARDS AND COME LATE AND EIGHT A IS ALREADY DONE AND THERE'S, UH, IT'S DIFFICULT. I WOULD WANT TO, I, I HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND I, I, I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE PEOPLE WANNA SPEAK AND THEY CAN'T STAY AND WAIT FOR THE AGENDA ITEM. SO COULD WE DO SOMETHING TO ACCOMMODATE THEM THAT WOULDN'T CAUSE CHAOS? BECAUSE OTHERWISE WE TELL THEM, THEY'LL SEND US A EMAIL OR WRITE US A LETTER OR SOMETHING AND, AND THEY DON'T HAVE A CHANCE TO SPEAK. I THINK IF YOU DO IT FOR ONE, YOU HAVE TO DO IT FOR EVERYONE. SO IF, YOU KNOW, IF I GET TO SPEAK ON TOPIC EIGHT, UM, AND I GET TO SPEAK ON TOPIC EIGHT AT THE BEGINNING, WHEN THERE'S A GENERAL CALL, THEN YOU HAVE TO ALLOW EVERYONE OH YEAH. THAT OPPORTUNITY. YEAH. SO YOU BASICALLY HAVE TO LET EVERYONE JUST SORT OF SPEAK AT THE FRONT. UM, AND THEN YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE WHO IS, WHO STAYED TO LISTEN TO THE CONVERSATION THEN SAYS, WELL, WELL NO, I'M GONNA TURN SOMETHING IN NOW. AND SO NOW YOU HAVE A SECOND CALL TO THE PUBLIC. FOR ME, I AG I AGREE WITH THE VICE MAYOR. I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE ARE, ARE SAYING AND WHAT, WHAT, HOW THAT RELATES TO WHAT I'M HEARING AND, AND ALL THAT OTHER STUFF. IF I HEAR A BUNCH OF COMMENTS PRIOR TO HAVING HEARD THE DISCUSSION, I HAVE TO TRY AND KEEP THOSE IN MIND WITH THE ONES I'M HEARING THAT ARE COMING LATER. UM, AND I, I WORRY A LITTLE BIT THAT THE WEIGHT THAT I GIVE TO WHAT SOMEONE HAS TO SAY, UM, WHEN THEY SPEAK EARLY IS LESS THAN THE WEIGHT AFTER. I HAVE ALSO HEARD WHAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED BY STAFF OR THE SPEAKER, WHOEVER, WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE. SO I, I JUST WORRY. AND THAT'S JUST A HUMAN THING, RIGHT? MM-HMM . WE JUST, THERE'S JUST TOO MUCH INFORMATION TO KEEP IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. AND I AGREE, AS THE HOURS GROW LONGER, ALL OF US ARE PROBABLY HAVING A HARDER TIME DOING THAT WHOLE, UM, WHAT WAS IT? UH, ATTEMPT TO, TO PAY ATTENTION. UM, AND I THINK THAT WE MIGHT BE NOT GIVING FULL WEIGHT OR CREDIT TO THE PEOPLE WHO CAME EARLIER. UM, AND THEN IT ALSO FALLS TO, WELL, WHAT IF I CAME LATE AND I REALLY NEEDED TO SPEAK? UM, AND I MISS MY OPPORTUNITY AT GENERAL CALL, THEN I DON'T GET TO SPEAK AT ALL. SO I THINK THAT THIS IS COMPLICATED. IT IS COMPLICATED, AND WE, BY ALLOWING PEOPLE TO SORT OF SPEAK WHEN, WHEN WE ARE THE TOPIC IS FRESH, I THINK IT'S HELPFUL FOR US TO, TO, UM, RELATE IT TO THAT TOPIC. UH, SO I WORRY ABOUT EARLY SPEAKERS GETTING LOST [03:20:01] IN THE SHUFFLE. I GUESS THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY. THERE IS PERHAPS A, A THOUGHT OCCURRED. WELL, DEREK, I'M SORRY FIRST DEREK, GO AHEAD. FIRST, PETE THOUGHT OCCURRED TO ME THAT ADDRESSING THE, I GOTTA LEAVE. I COULDN'T WAIT THAT LONG. THEY COULD WRITE A NOTE ON THE WAY OUT THE DOOR THAT PERHAPS GETS READ. MAYBE THAT'S AS AN IDEA THAT HAS HAPPENED. SOMEBODY HAS SENT SOMETHING. THEY HAVE ASKED TO BE READ AT THE MEETING. IT'S RARE, BUT IT HAS HAPPENED. UM, I THINK MELISSA'S POINT COULD BE ADDRESSED IF WE DID GET MORE, I DON'T WANNA SAY AGGRESSIVE, BUT IF WE WERE MORE WILLING TO ADJUST THE AGENDA BASED ON TURNOUT, 'CAUSE THEN WE'LL HAVE PEOPLE SPEAKING IN GROUP. AND I, AND I WANT TO HEAR, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE CLERK HAS TO SAY ABOUT THAT. I WANNA HEAR WHAT THE CITY MANAGER HAS TO SAY ABOUT THAT. THE OTHER THING THOUGH, THAT WE DIDN'T, I'M NOT SURE WE REALLY SETTLED ON, WAS WHAT IT WOULD MEAN FOR STAFF IF WE PUSHED THE MEETINGS OUT LATER. AND I, ANNETTE, I DIDN'T, MAYBE I MISSED IT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU, IF YOU HAD ANY THOUGHTS YOU WANTED TO SHARE ON THAT. WELL, FOR SOME OF OUR STAFF, YOU KNOW, WE'RE SALARIED, SO WHATEVER TIME WE NEED TO BE HERE IS THE TIME WE'RE GOING TO BE HERE. AND OTHER STAFF THAT ARE HOURLY, YES. WE FLEX THEIR SCHEDULES LATER. UM, I'M NOT SURE THE PUBLIC, THE STAFF OR THE COUNCIL WOULD WANT TO HAVE MEETINGS GOING UNTIL 11 O'CLOCK OR MIDNIGHT ON A REGULAR BASIS. AND YOU DO TEND TO HAVE FAIRLY LENGTHY MEETING. SO THE START TIME IS, YOU KNOW, IMPORTANT. UM, I MEAN, ACCELERATE OR NOT, I DON'T WANT TO PUT A HUGE BURDEN ON PEOPLE HAVE TO DRIVE, DRIVE HOME. YEAH. PEOPLE DRIVE HOME. YEAH. WE HAVE A LOT OF STAFF THAT DON'T LIVE IN THE CITY AND WE ARE ASKING THEM THEN TO DRIVE HOME 45 MINUTE COMMUTES. RIGHT. I'M OKAY WITH THE FOUR 30 START TIME. I, IT'S THE THREE O'CLOCK WORK SESSION THAT REALLY, I THINK, PRECLUDES THE PUBLIC FROM COMING TO SOME OF THEM. I WOULD, I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT UNIFORM AND MOVE BOTH STARCH TIMES TO THE FOUR 30. THAT'S JUST MY, JUST THROWING IT OUT THERE FOR DISCUSSION. I'D BE GOOD WITH THAT. I MEAN, USUALLY THE WORK SESSIONS ARE SHORTER ANYWAY 'CAUSE WE DON'T HAVE 56 ITEMS ON THE AGENDA. BUT I GUESS I'D SAY I'M OPEN TO GIVING THAT A SHOT AND IN THE COLDER TIME OF YEAR AND GIVE PETE AND I MORE TIME TO MOUNTAIN BIKE IN THE AFTERNOON BEFORE WE COME HERE. SO, JUST SAYING, ISN'T IT, AND SERIOUSLY, I, I'D BE, I'D BE WILLING TO GIVE THAT A SHOT. YEAH. WE HAVE HAD, UM, SITUATIONS IN THE PAST WHERE THE CLERK HAS SUGGESTED STARTING THE WORK WEDNESDAY WORK SESSION AT TWO BECAUSE OF THE LENGTH OF TIME ANTICIPATED. SO IF WE WERE TO MOVE IT TO FOUR 30, WOULD THE COUNCIL STILL BE OKAY WITH THAT AS IT COMES UP? IF SHE'S SUGGESTING THAT YOU NEED TO DO AN EARLIER START TIME TO ACCOMMODATE, YOU KNOW, THOSE DISCUSSION TOPICS, WOULD YOU BE OKAY WITH STARTING BEFORE FOUR 30 WHEN IT'S REQUESTED? OR WOULD THIS BE LIKE A HARD NO, WE ONLY START AT FOUR 30. I THINK IF THERE'S AN EXPECTATION THAT THE, THE MEETING'S GONNA GO WHATEVER TIME WE DECIDE THAT STARTING AT EARLIER COULD BE AN OPTION PER INSTANCE. CAN WE TAKE ONE, UH, SPECIFIC EXAMPLE? MM-HMM . YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA HAVE WESTERN GATEWAY BACK IN FRONT OF US SOON. MM-HMM . THAT ONE MAY NOT BE THE MOTHER OF ALL MEETINGS, BUT THE ONE AFTER THAT MAY WELL BE RIGHT. GET SCHEDULED FOR A WEDNESDAY AND WE WOULD WANNA PLAN THAT. THAT'LL BE AT LEAST A FOUR HOUR SESSION EXPECTING LOTS OF PUBLIC INPUT. WHEN WOULD YOU WANT THAT MEETING TO START? PROBABLY THREE. UM, WHY NOT FOUR 30? IN THAT CASE, IF IT'S SO SIGNIFICANT IS GOING SO LONG. I MEAN, IF, IF IT'S BECAUSE STAFF IS REQUESTING THE ADDITIONAL TIME FOR IT TO GO EARLIER, I DON'T REALLY HAVE A HARD FEELING ON THAT. I'M F OKAY, I'M GONNA GET SHOT FOR THIS. BUT I DON'T MIND LONG MEETINGS. IT'S NOT THAT I WANT A LONG MEETING, I WANT A QUALITY MEETING AND I DON'T WANT A SCHEDULE TO BE DICTATING THE QUALITY OF OUR CONVERSATION. AND THAT HAS BEEN SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN STICKING IN MY CRAW FOR A WHILE NOW. SPECIFICALLY ON WEDNESDAYS, RIGHT? WELL, BOTH, YES. BUT IT'S BEEN MORE OF A, IT'S BEEN MORE OF AN ISSUE ON WEDNESDAYS, ALTHOUGH IT ABSOLUTELY HAS COME UP ON TUESDAY MEETINGS AS WELL. SUPPORT. YEAH. JOE, I DID ASK FOR THE WORK SESSION THAT WE'VE GOT [03:25:01] SCHEDULED FOR DECEMBER 10TH THAT NOW HAS THREE ITEMS ON IT. UH, DISCUSSION REGARDING CONCEPTS FOR THE WESTERN GATEWAY FOR SOME PUBLIC INPUT, THE DIS POSSIBLE DIRECTION REGARDING THE WASTEWATER PLANT, FACILITY PLANT. AND THEN WE HAVE A SUSTAINABILITY, UH, GREENHOUSE GAS INVENTORIES. AND THAT I FELT LIKE IS DEFINITELY, UM, A MEETING THAT NEEDED TO BE CHANGED TO AN EARLIER START TIME. IS, IS THERE, I SO I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE SCHEDULING THAT MANY ISSUES FOR AS WORK SESSION ITEMS FOR WORK SESSION. I THINK A WORK SESSION IS IN MY, WHAT I'VE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD WAS THAT THEY WERE TO GO IN DEPTH ON A TOPIC, AND IF YOU HAVE THREE AND FOUR TOPICS, YOU CAN'T GO IN DEPTH ON A TOPIC. SO IS THERE A REASON THAT THOSE CAN'T BE, THAT ONE OF THOSE, PERHAPS THE EMISSIONS COULD HAPPEN LATER. THESE WERE ALL REQUESTED BY COUNCIL AT YOUR, IN PREVIOUS COUNCIL MEETINGS FOR THE UPCOMING MEETINGS SCHEDULED TO GET THEM SCHEDULED. AND YOU WANTED THEM BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR. AND WE ONLY HAVE SO MANY. IT'S A, SO THE, THE ONE WITH SUSTAINABILITY HAS TO DO WITH THE EVS AND WHAT'S OUR CITYWIDE STRATEGY ON EV CHARGING, WHICH FALLS UNDER THE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSION PIECE OF OUR CLIMATE ACTION PLAN. I HAD THE REQUEST FOR THE WESTERN GATEWAY TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO COME AND, UM, PRESENT MORE PUBLIC FEEDBACK TO ON THAT ONE. UM, WHAT WAS THE THIRD ONE? OH, AND WE, AND THE DIRECTION TO ROXANNE WAS TO BRING BACK THE SOILS TESTING ANALYSIS AND TO, UM, HAVE THAT FINAL DISCUSSION ON THE WASTEWATER FACILITY PLAN BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR AS WELL. SO, BUT THIS IS, YEAH. A BIT OF A ONE-OFF BECAUSE WE'RE MISSING A, A MEETING, A WORK SESSION IN NOVEMBER. YEAH. BOTH WORK SESSIONS IN NOVEMBER. WE ALWAYS VACATE THE ONE BEFORE PER THE RULES, THE ONE RIGHT BEFORE THANKSGIVING. UH, BUT THIS TIME, BECAUSE OF VETERAN'S DAY FALLING ON A TUESDAY, THE REGULAR SESSION MOVED TO WEDNESDAY AND WE DON'T HAVE ONE SCHEDULED FOR THAT THURSDAY. RIGHT. WE HAVE AT THE END OF THE, WE HAVEN'T SCHEDULED, WE JUST DON'T HAVE ANY ITEMS FOR IT. AT THE END OF THE CALENDAR YEAR, IT BECOMES A CRUNCH. AND THEN WE ADD THE THREE EXTRA, OR IN THIS CASE, THREE EXTRA MEETINGS RELATED TO THE RETREAT AND THE PRIORITY SETTING. UM, BUT IF YOU ARE, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN GIVE THAT DIRECTION IN HERE ON UPCOMING MEETING SCHEDULE. I DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S AGENDIZED OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT, UM, I WAS TOLD, AND MAYBE IT'S NOT ACCURATE, WAS THAT THE START DATE OF THE WEDNESDAY WORK SESSION WAS BECAUSE THE GOAL WAS TO BE DONE BY 6:00 PM THAT DAY AND TO CARVE OUT THREE HOURS. WHEN DID THAT EVER BECOME A PRIORITY? SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S THE NO, THAT, THAT WAS NOT A COUNCIL DECISION. IT WAS AN INDIVIDUAL'S DECISION. OKAY. SO THE PREVIOUS MAYOR MADE THAT DECISION AND ACTED ON IT WITHOUT IT BEING DISCUSSED BY COUNCIL. SO AGAIN, IF COUNCIL WANTS TO CHANGE YOUR START TIMES, THAT'S TOTALLY FINE WITH ME. I WAS JUST CURIOUS ON THE FLEXIBILITY WHEN WE DO HAVE THOSE OCCASIONS THAT YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO, IF, IF THE END TIME ISN'T THE GOAL, WHICH IS WHY I THINK THE CLERK'S OFFICE HAS SUGGESTED EARLIER START TIME SO THAT THE COUNCIL MEETING ON A WEDNESDAY WOULD END, YOU KNOW, BEFORE X TIME. UM, IF THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE, UM, AND YOU WANNA START AT FOUR 30 AND JUST HAVE IT GO AS LONG AS IT TAKES JUST LIKE A TUESDAY, UM, WE CAN CERTAINLY ACCOMMODATE THAT. UM, DEPEND, I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT COMES INTO PLAY IS IF CERTAIN STAFF ARE CONSULTANTS WHERE THERE ARE TUESDAY NIGHT UNTIL 11, AND THEN THEY GOTTA COME BACK AND, YOU KNOW, I WOULD WORK WITH THEM ON, ON MAKING SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GETTING A BREAK FOR ANOTHER LENGTHY COUNCIL MEETING. WELL, WE WANNA ENCOURAGE THE MORE PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. AND THE WEDNESDAY SESSIONS ARE GENERALLY ONE TOPIC. MM-HMM . SO THIS IS AN ANOMALY. MM-HMM . BUT WE ALSO WANNA BE SENSITIVE TO THE DINNER HOUR AS WELL, SO THAT PEOPLE AREN'T LEAVING TO GO TO DINNER IF WE WANT MORE PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. SO IT'S, WE GOTTA BALANCE THIS OUT. WE CAN TRY IT. I MEAN, I WANT THE PUBLIC, I WANNA WELCOME MORE PUBLIC. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THEY ALWAYS FEEL AS IF THEY ONLY FIND OUT INFORMATION AFTER THE FACT AND NOT DURING THE FORMATION, YOU KNOW, OF, OF THE DECISIONS. SO I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED. ARE YOU, UM, SUGGESTING THAT WE MOVE THE START TIME ON [03:30:01] A TUESDAY TO FIVE 30? NO. OR ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT WE HAVE, UM, THE OPEN CALL BE WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY REGARDLESS OF THE ITEMS? NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT WEDNESDAY THE TIME. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WEDNESDAY? YEAH. OKAY. IF WE, IF IT'S ONE TOPIC, IT'S GENERALLY BEEN ABOUT THREE HOURS, SO THAT'S FOUR 30 TO SEVEN 30. BUT I'M ALSO SAY IT TAKES AS LONG AS IT TAKES. BUT IF WE WANNA INCREASE PUBLIC PARTICIPATION, LET'S NOT DO THINGS THAT DECREASES PUBLIC PARTICIPATION IN THE SAME, I THINK THE GOAL OF THE WEDNESDAY WORK SESSIONS WAS TO BE DONE IN TWO HOURS, THREE TO FIVE, SO THAT EVERYONE GO TO DINNER AFTERWARDS AND NOT GET INTO THE DINNER HOUR. UM, CURRENTLY, CURRENTLY, BUT THEY USUALLY GO TO SIX. YES. THEY OFTEN, OFTEN GO, WHICH ALSO DOESN'T INTERFERE WITH THE DINNER HOUR. BUT PEOPLE WHO WORK ARE NOT NECESSARILY COMING AT THREE O'CLOCK. SO, AS AN EXAMPLE, WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT HOUSING, WE DIDN'T GET THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE WORKFORCE MEMBERS OF THE WORKFORCE FOR WHOM WE WANT TO HAVE AFFORDABLE HOUSING. 'CAUSE THEY WERE ALL WORKING, WE COULD BUMP. SO THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE WE'RE LOOKING TO EXPAND PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. WE COULD BUMP TO FOUR 30 AND THEN JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS. YEAH. I MEAN, IF THE, IF IT'S EMPTY AGAIN, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE PUBLIC GETS USED TO THE IDEA OF THE TIME CHANGE, THEN WE'LL KNOW MAYBE IT WAS A WASTE OF TIME AND WE CAN ALWAYS CHANGE IT BACK. BUT, YOU KNOW, TAKE A LITTLE WHILE PROBABLY FOR THAT TO SETTLE IN. BUT WE'RE NOT STUCK WITH IT. WE CAN ALWAYS UNDO IT IF WE DECIDE WE DON'T LIKE IT. MAYOR, WE ALSO DON'T WANNA INCREASE THE BUDGET. SO WE DON'T KNOW WHO'S AN HOURLY EMPLOYEE AND WHO IS A SALARIED EMPLOYEE. SO WE'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT, AT THE PARTICIPATION OF STAFF TOO. AND, UH, MAYOR, IN TERMS OF THAT, UM, EXPENSE, UM, LIKE I SAID, WE WORK WITH THE FOLKS WHO MAY PARTICIPATE THAT ARE HOURLY, WHICH AREN'T VERY MANY, I DON'T THINK. UM, I'M FLEXING THEIR SCHEDULES. UM, SO THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE. OKAY. UM, YEAH, I WOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT THAT. MARY, ONE THING WE MIGHT WANT TO THINK ABOUT IS WHETHER WE'RE GONNA ALLOW VIRTUAL PARTICIPATION IN OUR MEETINGS BY THE PUBLIC AT SOME POINT. THAT'S A GOOD POINT. I JUST, I, I'M MORE CONCERNED ABOUT TUESDAYS AND TUESDAY MEETINGS BECAUSE WE MAKE DECISIONS ON TUESDAYS. AND IF WE'RE GOING UNTIL ONE OR TWO IN THE MORNING, BECAUSE WE STARTED AT FIVE 30 OR SIX, UM, BECAUSE WE'VE OFTEN STARTED AT FOUR 30 AND LEFT AT 11 OR MIDNIGHT SOMETIMES, OR EVEN LATER. UM, HOW GOOD IS OUR DECISION MAKING? AND I WORRY ABOUT THAT. UM, SO I AND A COUNSELOR FURMAN SAID, IS ACTUALLY REALLY INTERESTING. WE DO LIVE IN THE DIGITAL AGE. UM, AND IS THERE A WAY FOR US TO HAVE PEOPLE SUBMIT QUESTIONS, UM, OR COMMENTS, I GUESS IS COMMENTS THAT CAN THEN BE, UM, PRINTED OR WHATEVER AND HANDED TO WHOEVER'S OFFICIATING TO BE READ INTO THE PUBLIC RECORD. UM, BECAUSE WE DO GET PEOPLE WHO DO READ THINGS IN THE PUBLIC RECORD. AND I THINK TUESDAY, I ALSO, UM, AGREE WITH COUNSELOR FAF. WE HAVE UPON OCCASION MOVED, UM, ITEMS. AND IF WE KNOW THAT AGENDA ITEM IS GOING TO BE A HOT TOPIC, NOT TO LEAVE IT WHERE IT WAS CURRENTLY PLACED, BUT TO TRY AND MOVE IT SO THAT MORE PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO STAY IN ORDER TO DO THIS. I MEAN, WE ALSO HAVE PEOPLE WHO COME AND THEY HAVE CHILDREN, RIGHT? AND SO, YOU KNOW, THEY WANNA BE ABLE TO GET HOME TO THEIR FAMILY OR TO RELIEVE A BABYSITTER OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE. AND WE NEED TO TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION AS WELL. AS FAR AS WORKERS ARE CONCERNED, OUR WORKERS IN THIS COMMUNITY ARE SPREAD BOTH MORNING AND WAY INTO THE LATE EVENING. SO WE'LL HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING IN THE HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY WHO WILL BE WORKING EVENINGS. UM, WE ARE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO NECESSARILY ACCOMMODATE EVERYONE. WE JUST HAVE TO TRY OUR BEST TO ACCOMMODATE AS MANY PEOPLE AS WE CAN AND AS MANY, UM, CHANNELS AS WE CAN, GIVEN THAT WE HAVE THOSE CHANNELS AVAILABLE TO US. SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US? I'M HEARING TUESDAYS STAY AS IS. AND WHAT ABOUT WEDNESDAYS? ERIC? CAN I ALSO ADD TUESDAY STAY AS IS LIKE IN ALL ASPECTS THAT PUBLIC HEARING STAYS TIED TO THE AGENDA ITEM AS WELL. MM-HMM . I SEE THAT'S, YEAH. OKAY. WHAT ABOUT WEDNESDAY? I, I AM, I AM STILL OF MIND OF MOVING THE WEDNESDAY MEETING TO BE CONSISTENT WITH THE START TIME OF THE TUESDAY MEETING. [03:35:01] I AGREE. LET'S GIVE IT A TRY. OKAY. NOW THE RULES, THE RULES HAVE THREE O'CLOCK. YEAH. SO I PUT UP HERE FOUR 30, I ADDED IN THE CITY MANAGER. 'CAUSE OFTEN THE WORK SESSIONS ARE ACTUALLY ESTABLISHED, ARE CALLED BY THE CITY MANAGER. AND THEN I DID LEAVE IN THE CITY MANAGER. AND THIS AGAIN REFLECTS PRACTICE THAT THE CITY MANAGER'S AGENDA TEAM MAY ADJUST THE START TIME FOR LONG AGENDA ITEMS. SO IF WE DO HAVE SOMETHING WE'RE EXPECTING ON OCCASION THAT WE COULD BUMP IT UP. I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S COMPLETELY RIGHT THOUGH. THAT, I MEAN, THE AGENDA IS NOW WE'VE CHANGED THE RULES. CITY MANAGER OR ATTORNEY CAN AUTOMATICALLY ADD AGENDA ITEMS, BUT CAN THE MAYOR ACTUALLY CALL? YEAH. YOU KNOW, YOUR RIGHTS, THE, THE MAYOR DOESN'T REALLY CALL FOR A WEDNESDAY WORK SESSION. NO. OR DO THREE COUNSELORS. THAT'S RIGHT. YOU'RE RIGHT. WELL, THREE COUNSELORS DO THEY CALL, THEY CALL FOR AN AGENDA ITEM. THEY DON'T CALL FOR A WORK SESSION TO BE HELD. CORRECT. SO SOMETIMES THEY SAY IT NEEDS TO BE A WORK SESSION WHEN YOU GUYS DISCUSS IT. WE NEED, THAT'S A WEDNESDAY WORK SESSION. BUT THAT'S, YEAH, THAT'S A LITTLE LITERAL. YEAH. IT'S, IT'S THAT, IT'S THE AGENDA ITEM ITSELF. AND THEN IT'S USUALLY IN CONSULTATION WITH THE CITY MANAGER OF, OH, DO YOU WANT THAT TO BE A WEDNESDAY VERSUS A TUESDAY? AND THEN WE DISCUSS ANYWAYS. SO YOU WANNA JUST LEAVE IT AS THE CITY MANAGERS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN CALL WORK SESSIONS. WELL, AREN'T THE WORK SESSIONS BASED ON THE FACT THAT THERE'S NO VOTE BEING TAKEN? THERE'S, THERE'S, WE'RE JUST MORE EDUCATIONAL. I'VE, I'VE NEVER BEEN ON A WORK SESSION WHERE WE'VE BEEN CALLED TO TAKE AN ACTION. UM, NO, WE HAVE TAKEN ACTION. WHOOPS. I DIDN'T MEAN ON A WORK SESSION. THAT'S THE LAST LINE HERE. NO OFFICIAL ACTION MAY BE TAKING A WORK SESSION UNLESS SO STATED ON THE AGENDA FOR THAT MEETING. AND IT'S BECOMING MORE COMMONPLACE AS THE TUESDAY MEETINGS GET SO BUSY, THAT RAISES A WHOLE NOTHER POINT ABOUT GIVING DIRECTION IS AN ACTION. I MEAN, WHEN ARE WE GONNA RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S THIS THUMBS UP, THUMBS DOWN THING IS A WAY ABOUT GETTING AROUND, NOT VOTING, BUT YOU ARE VOTING. IT'S, I MEAN THAT'S ANOTHER LITTLE THING THAT STICKS IN MY CRAW. I AGREE. BUT AREN'T WE ACTUALLY JUST VOTING FOR AN AGENDA ITEM? WE'RE VOTING FOR WHETHER OR NOT WE WANT TO HEAR AN AGENDA ITEM. YEAH. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ACTIONS WE TAKE AT A WORK SESSION COUNCIL. GOT IT. YEAH. IT'S USUALLY DISCUSSION AND FEEDBACK TO THE STAFF OR DIRECTION TO STAFF TYPE OF, UM, BUT IT ISN'T THE AGENDA. CORRECT. OKAY. SO WHAT I'M HEARING IS FOUR 30 FOR WEDNESDAYS WITH THE DISCRETION GIVEN TO THE CITY MANAGER TO MAKE IT EARLIER, DEPENDING ON THE TOPICS AND THAT WORK SESSIONS ARE WITHIN THE DISCRETION OF THE CITY MANAGER. WHEN COUNCIL ASKS FOR SOMETHING TO BE AGENDIZED, THE CITY MANAGER CAN DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S A TUESDAY OR A WEDNESDAY. EVERYBODY AGREE WITH THAT? I STILL LIKE THE LANGUAGE ABOUT COUNCIL MEMBERS CAN CALL A WORK SESSION. IT MIGHT BE THAT WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT OKAY. GETTING THE UNDERSTANDING FROM THE STAFF. AND IF WE'VE GOT ENOUGH OF US AND WE WANNA DO A WORKSTATION, A WORKS SESSION, THEN WE GET TO DO THAT THREE MEMBERS OF THE CITY OF IT'S STILL JUST ASKING FOR AN AGENDA ITEM, RIGHT? SURE. YEAH. FINE. HOW ARE, THIS MAY BE A QUESTION FOR JOANNE OR, OR THE MAYOR. HOW ARE THE AGENDA ORDERS SET? HOW IS THAT? WE TRY TO PUT THE BUSIEST ONE THE MOST PUBLIC INPUT FIRST. YOU DO? YEAH. SO IT IS A PUBLIC HEARING. YEAH. OKAY. SOMETIMES WE GET THAT WRONG, BUT THAT'S WHAT THE AGENDA YEAH. BUT IT'S NOT A SCIENCE PUBLIC HEARING. AND THEN IF WE HAVE PEOPLE COMING TO PRESENT, LIKE FOR INSTANCE, UPCOMING, YOU'LL HAVE, UH, NORTHERN ARIZONA HEALTHCARE, SO OUTSIDE AGENCIES. OKAY. SO IT'S ALREADY ON YOUR RADAR SCREEN AND THEN DISCUSSED DURING THE, UM, AGENDA SETTING, TEAM MEETING AS WELL. YEAH. PUBLIC INTEREST IS ALWAYS DISCUSSED ON AN ITEM. OKAY. JUST ANECDOTALLY, IT FEELS TO ME LIKE A LOT OF THE ONES THAT THE PUBLIC HAS SHOWN UP FOR HAVE ENDED UP TOWARD THE END OF THE AGENDA. BUT THAT'S JUST I THINK A COUPLE OF, COUPLE IN PARTICULAR. SO THERE'S JUST A LOT OF ITEMS ON AN AGENDA. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING AT THE END. . WELL, I ALSO THINK IT IS THE FACT THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE DO BEFORE WE GET DOWN TO REGULAR BUSINESS. RIGHT. ? UM, I KNOW HOW TO SAVE A, SAVE A MOMENT OF TIME SAVING THAT ONE. I WAS WAITING FOR IT. BUT ALONG ALONG THOSE LINES, ONE OF THE, THE, THE QUESTIONS, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS THE RIGHT SECTION OR WHAT [03:40:01] TO THINK ABOUT IT, BUT WHEN ONE OF US PULLS A CONSENT AGENDA ITEM, IT BECOMES A PIECE OF BUSINESS, RIGHT? AND FOR US TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION OUT OF ORDER, AND NOW WE'RE GONNA DISCUSS IT, PEOPLE ARE GONNA WANNA DO COMMENTS ON IT, AND THEN WE GO TO DO, UM, AWARDS OR IT FEELS LIKE A MOMENT OF ART. IT FEELS LIKE IT'S LIKE OUT OF ORDER. LIKE IT FEELS LIKE SOMEHOW IF WE PULL, IF A CONSENT AGENDA ITEM IS PULLED, IT SHOULD MOVE INTO BUSINESS INTO THE REGULAR BUSINESS. AGREE. I AGREE. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT BELONGS HERE OR WHATEVER, BUT THE FEW TIMES WE'VE DONE IT, IT FEELS LIKE WE GO FOR AN HOUR ON THE TOPIC AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN WE'RE SWITCHING GEARS AND WE'RE, WE'RE BACK TO MOMENT OF ART OR WHATEVER. I JUST WANTED TO THROW THAT OUT. I, I AGREE. SO TO CLARIFY THEN, IF SOMETHING'S PULLED FROM THE CONSENT, THERE'S NO DISCUSSION OR NO PUBLIC INPUT UNTIL REGULAR BUSINESS? WELL, WHERE DOES IT GO ON THE REGULAR BUSINESS FOR FURTHER DOWN ON THE RULES? THERE'S A SECTION OF CONSENT. OKAY. SO WE CAN ADDRESS THAT ONE. BUT IT'S PROBABLY THEN YOU, THE OTHER ONES WHO BECOME THE FIRST ITEM OF BUSINESS UNDER THE REGULAR AGENDA AUTOMATICALLY. OR IT SOUNDS LIKE WE HAVE A TOPIC COMING UP ON CONSENT ITEMS AND THAT MIGHT BE THE TIME WE SHOULD HAVE THAT. WE'LL JUST, YEAH, WE CAN DISCUSS IT THEN. ALL RIGHT. UM, OKAY. WHERE DID YOU HAVE YOUR NEXT, MY NEXT THING IS, WHICH I ALREADY TOUCHED ON, IS IN, IS STILL IN FOUR, THE LAST SENTENCE. NO OFFICIAL ACTION MAY BE TAKEN TO THE WORK SESSION UNLESS SO STATED ON THE AGENDA FOR THAT MEETING. AND AGAIN, THIS THE POINT THAT DIRECTION IS AN ACTION, BUT IT IS STATED ON THE AGENDA. OKAY. ALWAYS STATED ON THE AGENDA. YES, MA'AM. OKAY. NEXT. UM, FIVE B. OKAY. ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING ELSE ON FOUR? I MEAN, ON, UM, A OKAY. OKAY. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO CLARIFY THAT AGAIN. COUNCILOR KINSELLA. 'CAUSE I'M NOT SURE THAT WE HAD A MEETING OF THE MINES THERE. YOUR CONCERN THAT THE LANGUAGE IN THE WORK SESSION SAYS NO OFFICIAL ACTION MAY BE TAKEN. AND YOU'RE SAYING, BUT WE DO ALL THE TIME. MM-HMM . THAT'S CORRECT. AND, AND JUST BE, IT'S ALSO STATED ON THE AGENDA THAT NO OFFICIAL ACTION IS TAKEN, BUT WE DO ALL THE TIME. NO, NO. THE AGENDA SAYS FOR DISCUSSION OR DIRECTION. OH, OKAY. YEAH, THAT'S, YEAH. YES, I GET IT. SO DO, COULD THAT BE ELIMINATED? YEAH, WE COULD ELIMINATE A SENTENCE. 'CAUSE IT'S, WE PROVIDE DIRECTION REGULARLY, WHICH ISN'T, WHICH IS A TYPE OF ACTION. YES, IT WOULD. OKAY. OKAY. SO WHICH AGAIN SPEAKS TO THE, THE, THE FIVE B IN EXECUTIVE SESSION. UM, WHENEVER COUNCIL PUBLICLY TAKES FORMAL ACTION ON, WHERE ARE YOU, UH, FIVE B AN EXECUTIVE SESSION REPORT, BUT IS IT ONE OR WHAT NUMBER? RIGHT BELOW PAGE. OH, OKAY. YOU WITH ME? YEAH, I'M WITH YOU. OKAY. OKAY. EXECUTIVE SESSION REPORT SHALL BE GIVEN AT THE SUBSEQUENT REGULARLY SCHEDULED COUNCIL MEETING, WHENEVER COUNCIL PUBLICLY TAKES A FORMAL ACTION ON MATTERS CONSIDERED AN EXECUTIVE SESSION. AND AGAIN, SOMETIMES, AND WE'VE GOTTEN MUCH, MUCH BETTER ABOUT THIS. BUT I, WHEN WE JUST SAY COMING OUT, FOLLOW THE DIRECTION GIVEN, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE DO DO THAT. THAT WE ARE ABSOLUTELY DO THAT IN OPEN SESSION. THAT WE ALWAYS COME OUT AND RESTATE AND TAKE A VOTE ON FOLLOWING INSTRUCTING STAFF TO FOLLOW THE DIRECTION. GIVEN I AM FINE WITH THE LANGUAGE OF DIRECTION GIVEN, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S ALWAYS AN OFFICIAL VOTE ON IT IN A PUBLIC SESSION. NOT THAT WE JUST SAY, OH, WELL, WE'RE ONLY FOLLOWING DIRECTION, THEREFORE WE DON'T NEED TO TAKE A VOTE ON THAT. I JUST TAKING DIRECTION, ASKING STAFF TO TAKE DIRECTION ON SOMETHING NEEDS, IN MY OPINION, A FORMAL VOTE IN OPEN SESSION AT FOLLOWING THE EXECUTIVE SESSION. YEP. I THINK FOUR B IS SPEAKING TO THAT NEW ITEM THAT WE ADDED IN THE REGULAR MEETING WHERE WE SUMMARIZE WHAT WE DID AT THE END OF THE CLOSED SESSION, WHICH BOTH. YEAH. YEAH. BOTH IT'S, IT'S BOTH. IT'S BOTH. YEAH. BUT I, I'M NOW A LITTLE CONFUSED. YOU WANT SOMETHING ADDED TO A UPON RECONVENING IN THE PUBLIC SESSION FILING EXECUTIVE SESSION. YOU WANT SOMETHING ADDED TO THAT SENTENCE OR ADDITIONAL SENTENCE THERE. B, BUT BB IS THE REPORT WHICH WE'RE ALREADY DOING. THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN A VOTE THAT COMES OUT OF EXECUTIVE SESSION WHERE WE SAY, EVEN IF IT'S DO AS DIRECTED, AND WE ALL SAY [03:45:01] YAY OR NAY. RIGHT. AND I WANNA MAKE SURE THAT HAPPENS. THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES IN THE PAST WHERE IT'S BEEN, I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU. I UNDERSTAND YOUR, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I'M JUST SAYING THAT B IS ABOUT THE REPORT THAT WE GIVE DURING THE OPEN SESSION. THAT'S NOT ABOUT THE VOTE. THE VOTE SHOULD BE, I THINK UNDER A, WHICH IS WHEN WE RECONVENE UPON RECONVENING IN PUBLIC SESSION, YOU WANT TO HAVE A VOTE, RIGHT? YES. ALSO, I ALSO WANT THAT CLEARLY REPORTED THAT IT WAS A VOTE IN THE, IN THE REPORTING THAT'S DONE UNDER B. SO I THINK IT'S COVERED BY WHAT'S WRITTEN THERE. MY ONLY QUESTION IS ABOUT WHEN WE DO B, WE DO THAT REPORT. IT'S STUCK UNDER THE COUNCIL REPORTING THING. AND I THINK IT SHOULD HAVE ITS OWN ITEM. IT DOES IT REALLY WELL. IT'S AN, IT'S FIVE B, IT'S FIVE B, AND SOMETIMES WE'VE SKIPPED IT BECAUSE IT'S DOESN'T SHOW, WELL, WE'VE NEVER SKIPPED IT COMPLETELY, BUT WE'VE MISSED IT AND HAD TO GO BACK TO IT. MM-HMM . YEAH. UM, IT'S STILL NEW. IT IS STILL NEW, BUT YEAH, IT COULD GET ITS OWN NUMBER. IT COULD BECOME SIX NUMBER COULD AND THEN CHANGE EVERYTHING. BUT WE'RE PRETTY USED TO THOSE NUMBERS. , I DON'T KNOW. I THINK THAT THAT'S A PRETTY IMPORTANT PIECE THAT WE'VE ADDED. AND THEREFORE, YOU, YOU ARE, YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE YOUR OWN ENTRY INTO, INTO THE AGENDA. WELL, WE'LL GET, UH, THAT'S COMING RIGHT UP. SO YOU'RE WORTHY OF A NUMBER. . I WANTED TO KEEP IT THE CITY ATTORNEY WHO'S WHERE THE NUMBER ARE. ALL RIGHT. LUNCH IS READY. SO LET'S FINISH THIS SECTION OF A AND THEN, UH, HAVE, UH, OH, YOU MEAN FIVE, OH, WELL, YOU, I FIVE RULE THREE. A THREE. SO I HAVE SOMETHING VERY QUICK UNDER THREE, UH, A SIX, WHICH IS, COULD WE JUST GO TO GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE? A MAJORITY OF THE COUNCILMEN, COULD WE CHANGE THAT TO COUNSELORS? YEP. WELL, SO IT'S QUOTING THE STATE LAW. UM, BUT WE DON'T NEED TO, WE CAN JUST, WE CAN, I'LL CHANGE IT. I'LL LOOK AT IT. WE DON'T NEED TO QUOTE IT. EXACTLY. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS SECTION? UM, NO. OH, I, I DO ACTUALLY. SO, UM, I, I THINK THERE'S AN ISSUE WITH THE RECESSED MEETINGS BECAUSE WE ALMOST ALWAYS HAVE A MEETING ON WEDNESDAY, AND IT'S SUPPOSED TO HAVE A RECESSED MEETING WHERE WE CALL IT TO RESUME. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE NEXT DAY WITHIN 24 HOURS. SO THAT BECOMES A CONFLICT IF WE ALREADY HAVE A WEDNESDAY SESSION SCHEDULED. SO IT SAYS IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE RIGHT ON THE WEDNESDAY WORK AND SPECIAL SESSIONS AGENDA. SO IT'S AUTOMATICALLY ALREADY COVERED THERE IN CASE THAT HAPPENS. BUT WE'VE ACTUALLY NEVER, OR MAYBE ONCE IN MY FIVE YEARS HERE, EVER RECESSED IT TO THE NEXT DAY. USUALLY WE STICK IT OUT TILL MIDNIGHT IF WE NEED TO, OR ONE OR LATER. OKAY. I JUST, I JUST DIDN'T WANT LIKE WEDNESDAY'S MEETINGS TO SUDDENLY BALLOON BECAUSE WE'RE MOVING A REALLY BIG TOPIC, WHICH WE WEREN'T ABLE TO FINISH OVER TO THERE. PLUS WE THEN ALSO HAVE WHATEVER THE TOPIC OR TOPICS ARE FOR THE WEDNESDAY. THAT, THAT'S MY, THAT WAS MY ONLY CONCERN. ? YES. OH, I THINK IT'S, IT'S FINE AS IS. IT HASN'T CAUSED ANY ISSUE. UM, ONLY ONCE IN FIVE YEARS. IT'S BEEN CONTINUED AND, AND I THINK WHEN THE COUNCIL TOOK THE ACTION, THEY WERE LOOKING AT, WELL, TOMORROW'S AGENDA'S PRETTY LIGHT. WE'VE GOTTEN HERE FOREVER. LET'S JUST KICK THIS. . ARE YOU OKAY WITH THAT, MELISSA? FAIR ENOUGH. . OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO LET'S RECESS THIS MEETING FOR LUNCH. YEAH. RECESS. YEAH, JUST A BREAK. YEAH. 1230 WE'LL BE BACK. AND WE WERE GOING TO GO TO B. LET'S SEE, UH, RULE THREE, ITEM B. I STUCK IN ONE THING HERE BASED ON IF WE WERE GONNA GO WITH A GOOD STANDING OR NOT. SO THAT THIS ONE WOULD BE KIND OF AUTOMATIC THAT THEY WOULDN'T PRESIDE IF THEY'RE FOUND TO NOT BE IN GOOD STANDING. UM, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF WE NEED IT HERE 'CAUSE WE KIND OF COVERED IT IN THE SECTION ABOVE. SO PREFERENCES ON WHETHER IT STAYS HERE OR IF IT JUST STAYS IN THE SECTION. WELL, WE SAID THAT IT'S A MAY. IT'S YEAH, ITS A MAY. IT'S NOT A MANDATORY, THIS IS KIND OF MAKING IT A, A MANDATORY, WHICH IS WHERE, RIGHT. SO, SO, SO TAKE IT OUT SO THEN WE CAN DECIDE ON THE CASE BY CASE. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. HEY, KATHY. SO, UH, B ONE B DETERMINE WHETHER A SPEAKER IS GONE BEYOND THE SET TIME LIMITS OR STANDARDS OF COURTESY IN HIS OR HER REMARKS SORT OF SAYS TO ME THAT THERE COULD BE NO FILIBUSTERING, BUT HOW DOES THAT, UM, HOW DOES THAT WORK WITH RIGHT OF THE FLOOR? [03:50:01] THAT ONCE YOU RECOGNIZE, YOU GET THE RIGHT TO SPEAK, RIGHT? AND, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T GET INTERRUPTED WITH THAT. SO HOW, HOW DOES, HOW DOES THAT, HOW DO THESE TWO THINGS RECONCILE? SO, NO, I DON'T THINK YOU, AT LEAST IN OUR RULES, YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO THE FLOOR THAT ONCE YOU RECOGNIZED YOU JUST GET IT FOR MORE. UM, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE BRIEF IN YOUR REMARKS AND NOT REPETITIVE. THERE'S OTHER RULES THAT TALK ABOUT THAT. UM, AND THE MAYOR CAN, YEAH. SO BASICALLY THOUGH SOMEONE CAN BE CENSORED. YES. AND THEN THEY CAN IMMEDIATELY APPEAL THAT DECISION TO ALL, ALL COUNCIL IF THEY FEEL LIKE THE MAYOR'S TRYING TO C CSU THEM. THE PRESIDING OFFICER, I SHOULD SAY, I DON'T KNOW PERSONALLY, JUST AGAIN, GOING BACK TO FUNDAMENTALS OF PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE. I DON'T KNOW IF SOMEBODY SHOULD BE CUT OFF AFTER THEY'VE BEEN RECOGNIZED. I MEAN, BUT THAT'S, WELL, THE RULE IS THREE MINUTES. MM-HMM . AND NO, THAT'S FOR THE PUBLIC. I'M TALKING ABOUT COUNCIL, THIS IS COUNCILS. OH, COUNCIL. I DON'T THINK THERE IS A SET TIME LIMIT. ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU JUST SAID? NO, THERE'S NOT A SET TIME LIMIT. BUT THEY'RE WHAT SECTION IS THAT THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO, KURT? BECAUSE I THINK THE WORDS ARE ACTUALLY, I'M JUST RAISING IT. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. B ONE B. NO, THE, THE SECTION I WAS REFERRING TO, I DON'T RECALL OFF THE TOP. YEAH, WE DON'T HAVE A SET TIME LIMIT. WE DO, WE, NO, NOT A SET TIME, BUT THERE IS A, UH, REASONS THAT THE MAYOR CAN CUT ONE OF US OFF IS IN HERE SOMEWHERE. I BELIEVE IT'S UNDER C. YEAH, IT'S PROBABLY JUST RIGHT THERE. RIGHT AT THE FLOOR. WHILE YOU GUYS ARE RUMINATING, CAN I JUST GO BACK TO THE FRONT AND PRESIDING OFFICER? COULD WE JUST SAY THE MAYOR SHALL PRESIDE AT ALL COUNCIL MEETINGS IF PRESENT AND GET RID OF THE HE SLASH SHE MM-HMM . YES. YEAH. SO C SIX HAS ONE BIT OF IT IN THERE, BUT THERE'S A BETTER SENTENCE SOMEWHERE ELSE. THE MAYOR SHALL MONITOR DISCUSSION TO PRECLUDE PROTRACTED ARGUMENTS OVER THOSE POINTS. ENCOURAGE INSTEAD THE COUNSELORS USE THEIR MODERATED DISCUSSION TO CONTINUE THEIR ARGUMENT. BUT THERE'S SOMEWHERE ELSE. THE REASON I RAISED THIS THOUGH IS BECAUSE, AND I, I ACTUALLY AM REMEMBERING A VERY SPECIFIC INSTANCE IN WHICH A COUNSELOR HAD THE FLOOR AND WAS TRYING TO MAKE THEIR POINTS AND WAS DELIBERATELY CUT OFF BY THE PERSON CHAIRING THAT MEETING, UM, AND UNABLE TO MAKE THEIR POINTS. WHEREAS THIS COUNSELOR HAS BEEN ELECTED TO ADVOCATE FOR THE PUBLIC AS THEY SEE FIT AND WAS NOT, WAS, WAS BARRED FROM THEIR ABILITY TO PRESENT THEIR POINTS ELSEWHERE IN THE RULES THAT COUNSELOR COULD APPEAL TO ALL OF THE COUNCIL YEAH. TO OVERRIDE THAT DECISION. UH, I DON'T SEE WHERE, I MEAN, WE DON'T HAVE SET TIME LIMITS. THERE WE GO. RULE 3 0 2, IT'S PAGE 14. TIME MONITOR TIME MONITORING. I JUST FOUND IT. YEAH. YEAH. IT'S NOT HERE. I CAN GO TO ON HERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE. PAGE 14. PAGE 14. WHAT NUMBER? AT LEAST ON THE OLD ONE. I DON'T KNOW IF YOUR PAGE NUMBER'S CHANGED BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN ADDING STUFF, BUT IT'S OH OH TWO RULE 3 0 2. YEAH, IT'S ON 15 NOW. BUT TIME MONITORING IS NOT NECESSARY TO SPEAK ON EVERY ISSUE. WHEN YOU DO SPEAK, DO NOT ASK QUESTIONS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED OR DO NOT REPEAT INFORMATION. MAKE YOUR POINT. THE MAYOR MAY INTERRUPT A COUNSELOR IF SHE'S REPETITIOUS OR NOT ON TOPIC. THE MAYOR MAY REMIND THE COUNCIL ABOUT TIME. THE MAYOR MAY LIMIT DISCUSSION WHEN IT APPEARS THE STATEMENTS ARE REDUNDANT AND THAT THE TIME HAS COME TO VOTE. AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ABOUT TIME? TIME FOR WHAT? IT'S SEVEN 11 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT. CURTAIL YOUR COMMENTS. IT'S, IT'S, YES. THAT WOULD BE ONE ASPECT WHERE THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'RE TAKING MORE THAN WHAT WAS ALLOTTED FOR THAT ITEM. WE GENERALLY HAVE AN ESTIMATED TIME LIMIT FOR AN ITEM, YOU KNOW, 30 MINUTES, AN HOUR, TWO HOURS. WE'VE TAKEN THAT OFF ACTUALLY. SO, WELL, WE STILL ESTIMATE IT IN THE AGENDA TEAM TO TRY TO YES. BUT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AND WE'RE WRONG MOST OF THE TIME. YEAH. I, I THINK IT'S ONE THING FOR THE AGENDA TO ESTIMATE THE PRESENTATION TIME, BUT WE CAN'T ESTIMATE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SPEAK THEIR THREE MINUTES. UM, AND EVEN THOUGH [03:55:01] WE ASK THAT THEY NOT BE REDUNDANT, THEY ARE BECAUSE THEIR POINT, THEY STILL WANNA MAKE THEIR POINT. BUT THIS IS ALL ABOUT COUNCIL. WELL, NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT. I WAS GETTING TO THAT. AND SO IT SORT OF FEELS LIKE WHEN COUNSELORS SPEAK, THEY, UH, THEY ALMOST ALWAYS SAY, I RECOGNIZE WHAT THIS OTHER COUNSELOR HAS SAID, AND THEN ADD OTHER POINTS, WHICH MAY SOUND LIKE THEY'RE THE SAME, BUT THEY FEEL ARE DIFFERENT. AND I THINK THAT, THAT THAT'S, THAT'S DEMOCRACY AND FREE SPEECH. SO, YOU KNOW, TO HAVE ONE PERSON DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS REDUNDANT FEELS LIKE THEY'RE GETTING TO MONITOR YOUR FREE SPEECH. I JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT I, I ALWAYS READ THAT PHRASE ABOUT TIME. THE TIME HAS COME TO VOTE AS IF THERE'S NO NEW INFORMATION HERE. WE'RE TREADING THE SAME GROUND OR YOUR FILIBUSTERING OR WHATEVER, AND NO ONE ELSE IS ON THE SAME PAGE AS YOU. IT'S OKAY FOR THE MAYOR TO SAY IT'S COME TIME FOR A VOTE. BUT DOESN'T THIS ASSUME, BECAUSE LOOK AT THREE BELOW AGENDAS MAY INCLUDE A RECOMMENDED TIME LIMIT NEXT TO EACH ITEM. THE MAYOR MAY REMIND COUNCILORS WHEN THE TIME LIMIT IS BEING APPROACHED. WE, JOE, WHEN DID YOU CHANGE THAT? I DIDN'T CHANGE IT. THAT WAS CHANGED. WE USED TO DO THAT WHEN I WAS DEPUTY CITY MANAGER. I MEAN DEPUTY CITY CLERK. SO IT CHANGED AFTER I HAD GONE TO HR BEFORE WE CAME BACK. OH, IN BETWEEN MM-HMM . AND IT WAS, IF I RECALL RIGHT, IT WAS REMOVED JUST BECAUSE IT WAS ALWAYS WRONG. . RIGHT. . IT DIDN'T REALLY SERVE A PURPOSE. LIKE INEVITABLY WE WENT WAY OVER. WELL, THERE'S ANOTHER ORGANIZATION I'M ON THE BOARD OF. IT'S NOT A CITY BASED ORGANIZATION. AND THEY DO PUT TIME ESTIMATED TIMES, AND THEN THEY DO HAVE, WHEN THEY GET OVER SOMEBODY SAYS, YOU KNOW, WE ESTIMATED 15 MINUTES, IT'S NOW 30 MINUTES. JUST AS KIND OF A REMINDER TO THE REST OF THE PEOPLE, I AM ALSO ON THAT BOARD. AND NOT ONCE HAS THEIR ESTIMATE BEEN ACCURATE. CORRECT. AND NOT ONCE HAVE THEY STUCK TO THEIR ESTIMATE. AND I ALWAYS BRISTLED WHEN, YOU KNOW, A FORMER MAYOR USED TO DO THAT ON HERE. IF THE COUNSELOR HAS A QUESTION, THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO ASK THE QUESTION. OH, I AGREE. YEAH. IT, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE'RE, UH, SPEAKING TO FRUSTRATIONS WITH A PAST, UH, MAYOR AND THAT AS COUNCILOR FURMAN NOTED, IF, UH, IF THE MEETING LEADER IS, UH, INAPPROPRIATELY TRYING TO CUT OFF A COUNSELOR, THEY DO HAVE RECOURSE HERE BY MAKING A MOTION TO, OR ANYONE CAN MAKE THAT MOTION. MM-HMM . YEAH. YEAH, YEAH. YEAH. AND IT'S PROBABLY JUST A GOOD REMINDER FOR ALL OF US THAT, THAT WE HAVE THAT RECOURSE AND IT PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED, UH, IN THE PAST, BUT I DON'T SEE WHERE THIS REQUIRES, UH, FURTHER DOCUMENTATION OR ANYTHING AT THIS POINT. THAT'S MY OPINION. SO DO WE WANNA REMOVE THAT ABOUT THE SETTING THE TIME LIMITS B THREE ONE B? IT SEEMS AS THOUGH IT'S ADDRESSED ELSEWHERE LATER ON, SO I DON'T KNOW WHY IT NEEDS TO BE HERE, BUT IT IS ADDRESSED LATER IN THE TIME CONSIDERATION SECTION. UM, AND SO WE COULD REMOVE IT FROM HERE AND JUST BE, DETERMINE WHEN THE SPEAKER'S GONE BEYOND STANDARDS OF COURTESY. I THINK THAT WOULD, I THINK THAT'S A GOOD ONE. JUST TAKE OUT THE TIME, SET TIME LIMITS. AND I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE COURTESY OF THE PUBLIC WHEN WE GET TO THAT SECTION. ALL RIGHT. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE ON ITEM B ONE? SO B TWO IS RIGHT HERE, YOUR PROCEDURE. UM, SO ANY, ANY TIME THAT THE MAYOR MAKES A A, A RULING ON MOTIONS OR WHEN A SPEAKER'S NO LONGER BEING COURTEOUS OR PARLIAMENTARY LAW OR PROCEDURE, UM, IT CAN BE APPEALED TO ALL THE COUNCIL. WAIT, THERE'S A, IT REVERSE THE THREE E, SO LET'S JUST LOOK AT THAT. IS THAT YOU? PAGE 10. IT'S THE OLD PAGE NINE. SO THAT'S EITHER NINE OR 10 FOR MOTIONS. [04:00:01] I HAVE IT AS OLD PAGE 10. PROCEDURAL MOTIONS. E. YEP. THAT'S ALL I HAVE IT. AND THEN THAT'S, THAT'S THREE B TWO, WHICH WE IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. YEAH. THESE ARE, THESE LOOK LIKE THEY CONCUR. YEAH. OKAY. LET'S GO BACK UP TO THREE B TWO. SO THE, HOW ABOUT C NOW, UM, JUST ON C JUST WORTHY OF POINTING THAT OUT AGAIN, THAT MAYOR SHALL MODERATE THE COUNCIL'S DISCUSSION AND COMMENTS SESSION BY RECOGNIZING INDIVIDUAL COUNSELORS IN THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY'VE INDICATED THEIR DESIRE TO SPEAK. WORTH POINTING THAT OUT. I THINK, AS OPPOSED TO THE AUTOMATIC START ON ONE END AND GO DOWN THE OTHER, WHICH PUTS SOME COUNSELORS ON THE SPOT, IT DOESN'T ALLOW OTHERS TO GET TO VOICE ANYTHING. WELL, WE'RE NOT DOING THAT ANYMORE. I KNOW YOU ARE NOT. WANT TO MAKE SURE FOR ANY MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC THAT ARE CONSIDERING RUNNING FOR MAYOR IN THE FUTURE, BE AWARE OF THIS. . I AND I APPRECIATE RULE FOUR. I KNOW OUR ABILITY TO ADD ON, YOU KNOW, I, I OFTEN THINK THOUGH THAT YOUR QUESTION CAN ACTUALLY WAIT TILL YOUR TURN. IT DOESN'T REALLY ALWAYS HAVE TO GO THERE, BUT SOMETIMES IT IS APPROPRIATE BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING THAT SAID THAT MAYBE YOU WANNA ADDRESS RIGHT AWAY. BUT SOMETIMES BY DOING IT THERE, YOU GET IT DONE IN THREE SECONDS AS OPPOSED TO REOPENING IT LATER ON AS WELL. I THINK THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF AT, AT THE RISK OF INTERRUPT, UH, UH, UH, OFF PUTTING OFF TRACK. THE PERSON WHO YOU DID INTERRUPT THOUGH, SO THAT DOES HAPPEN AS WELL. IT'S, IT'S, IT'S A RISK. THERE'S BENEFITS AND RISKS. MM-HMM . LET'S JUST WAIT TILL THE PERSON FINISHES WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY. AND IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO TAG ON, I KNOW WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO USE THAT PHRASE. UH, TO ME IT'S MORE ORDERLY IF YOU FINISH THE TOPIC AND THEN MOVE ON TO THE NEXT TOPIC. SO IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO ADD SOMETHING WHILE YOU'RE STAYING ON THAT TOPIC. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS SECTION? NOTHING. MM-HMM. OKAY. D, ACTION BY THE COUNCIL. THREE. D THREE. THIS GOES TO THE POINT, UH, THAT WAS MADE BEFORE ABOUT WORDSMITHING FROM THE DEUS, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I SOMETIMES THINK THAT WE ARE NOT CLEAR ENOUGH TO STAFF IF WE DON'T, DON'T WORDSMITH TO A DEGREE. AND WHEN WE LEAVE SOMETHING THAT THAT'S VAGUE AND TO COME, TO COME BACK, UM, I, I'VE SEEN IT GO THAT WAY OR AND STAFF MAYBE SOMETIMES FEELING WE ADDRESS SOMETHING WITHOUT COMING IN CLOSURE. WE ADDRESS IT WITH 2, 3, 7 DIFFERENT SLIGHT VARIATIONS AND THEY DON'T HAVE THE DIRECTION THAT THEY NEED. SO I, I JUST THINK THAT SOME AMOUNT OF WORD CRAFTING, UH, IS APPROPRIATE, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE'RE IN MOTIONS AND, BUT THIS IS LIMITED TO MOTIONS, THIS ITEM AND DON'T WE NORMALLY GET THAT PRETTY CRYSTAL CLEAR AND I MEAN, YOU'RE OUR CHAMPION OF MOTIONS AND IT SEEMS LIKE YOU GET IT VERY TIGHT VERY QUICKLY. I, I'M NOT SURE I'M TRACKING WITH WHERE THERE'S A POTENTIAL ISSUE. IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT WE HAVE SAT UP HERE AND BEEN UNCLEAR ON WORDING THAT WE'VE WANTED IN ESPECIALLY, OKAY, HERE'S AN EXAMPLE. WHEN WE'RE DOING AN ORDINANCE OR SOMETHING AND IT'S WORD, SOMETHING THAT'S GONNA COME BACK TO US AND WE'RE TRYING TO GIVE DIRECTION ON HOW WE WANT WORDING CHANGED, BUT WE'RE NOT SPECIFIC ON THE WORDING AT THAT POINT. AND THEN WE END UP GOING THROUGH THE WHOLE SAME PROCESS AGAIN WHEN IT COMES BACK ANYWAY. SO IS THAT ACTUALLY COVERED UNDER THIS ITEM? BECAUSE THIS ITEM DOES SAY MOTIONS AS OPPOSED TO THE DIRECTIONS CONTENT. BUT IN ORDINANCE, THE ORDINANCE IS PART OF THE MOTION. IT'S KIND OF COVERED. I OKAY. WITH COUNCILOR KINSELLA ON THAT ONE. YOU'RE DOING A MOTION TO PROVE ORDINANCE, WHATEVER YOU'RE ADOPTING ALL THE [04:05:01] LANGUAGE OF THAT MOTION. AND SO, UM, I, THE POINT IS CONCEITED COUNCILOR KINSELLA CHANGE, ARE YOU SUGGESTING COUNCIL? UM, IT DOES JUST SAY DISCOURAGED. IT'S NOT, YEAH. AND THAT'S, THAT'S BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO GET IT RIGHT AND WE'RE MORE OPEN TO ERRORS IF WE'RE DOING A SIGNIFICANT WORD CRAFTING, AS IT CALLED, SAYS HERE AND ON THE FLY. OKAY. I'M FINE WITH IT. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE ON D? OKAY, LET'S GO TO E. ALRIGHT, SO, AND THIS IS ACTUALLY A, A LARGE SECTION. I'M NOT PROPOSING ANY CHANGES, BUT THIS IS REALLY THE MEAT OF WHAT CONTROLS THE MOTIONS AND WHAT HAPPENS KIND OF ON, ON COUNCIL WHEN EVERYONE, ANYONE'S MAKING A MOTION, THESE ARE THE ONES WE LOOK TO FIRST THEY ARE, THEY AS COUNCIL KINSELLA NOTED BEFORE, DIFFERENT THAN THE ROBERTS RULES AND SOME OF OUR, SOME OF THE STANDARD PROCEDURES, BUT THESE ARE THE ONES THAT COUNCIL HAS ADOPTED. SO MM-HMM. I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING PROPOSING ANY CHANGES IN HERE, BUT, UM, HAPPY TO, AND ALWAYS OPEN TO CONSIDERING CHANGES TO THESE MOTIONS. UM, WHEN WE HAVE TO, WHEN WE HAVE TO, UH, THE MOTION TO FOLLOW THE AGENDA IF WE'RE NOT FOLLOWING THE AGENDA, UH, DOES THAT REALLY NEED A MOTION? I MEAN, WE JUST POINTED OUT THIS JUST PROTECTIVE LANGUAGE THAT YOU'VE GOTTEN IN HERE. UM, I, I THINK IT'S THE, THE, THE GOAL OF THIS MOTION WOULD BE AS IF, YOU KNOW, AFTER, SO YES, GENERALLY WE JUST SAY, OKAY, WE'RE GETTING OFF TOPIC, LET'S MOVE, YOU KNOW, MOVE TO FOLLOW THE AGENDA. BUT IF THAT WASN'T HEATED, THEN I THINK A COUNSELOR COULD MAKE THE MOTION TO FOLLOW THE AGENDA. SO IT HASN'T, I DON'T, IT HASN'T COME UP IN MY TIME. USUALLY WHEN WE SAY AND WE AGREE OR I SAY THAT, HEY, WE'RE GOTTEN OFF TOPIC, THEN COUNCIL GETS BACK ON TOPIC. BUT IF THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, THEN SOMEONE COULD MAKE THE FORMAL MOTION. AND WE'RE GOOD WITH THE RECONSIDERATION LANGUAGE. NOW I AM. YEP. ONLY THOSE WHO VOTE IN THE PREVAILING SIDE AND ONLY WITHIN 60 DAYS. EXCUSE ME, KURT. YES. UNDER C, THE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, C ONE, UM, YES. RECONSIDERING DEC UH, DECISIONS INVOLVING REZONING. THE ISSUE THAT WE HAD WITH UPTOWN, WITH THE REZONING THERE THAT WE HAD TO EITHER VACATE OR REZONE IS NO, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT SHOULD OR WOULD OR COULD BE ADDRESSED HERE OR NOT? SO THAT WAS A ZONING REVERSION. YEAH. YEAH. WAS WHAT CAME UP AND THE CHOICES THERE WERE TO EXTEND THE TIMEFRAME, UM, OR, UM, REVERT THE ZONING BACK TO WHAT IT WAS SINCE THE DEVELOPMENT HAD FAILED. UM, YES. I MEAN EITHER ACTION. SHOULD SOMETHING ADDRESS THAT HERE. 'CAUSE WHERE IS THAT ADDRESSED? IF NOT, IF NOT IN THE RULES OF PROCEDURE, WHERE DID, WHERE DID YOU GET THE DIRECTION FOR US THAT IT HAD TO BE THAT, THAT THAT'S CONTROLLED BY STATE LAW AND THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE? SO SHOULD THERE NOT BE AND THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE, BUT SHOULD IT NOT BE A REFERENCE OR SOMETHING OR NO, I MEAN, YEAH, I MEAN WE COULD ADD IN, IT WAS REALLY JUST A STAFF PROCESS. IT'S A TYPE OF REZONING, I WOULD ARGUE, YOU KNOW, ZONING REVERSIONS. BUT WE COULD SPECIFICALLY CALL IT OUT. I DON'T FEEL STRONGLY. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT WE COULD ADDRESS TO AVOID ANY FUTURE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, NOT LACK OF CLARITY THAT IT HAPPENED, BUT YEAH. DOES IT REALLY BELONGING [04:10:01] OUR RULES. THIS WAS A, THE ZONING EXPIRED STAFF SHOULD HAVE REVERTED IT. I THINK THE PROCESS HAS BEEN FIXED. THIS IS REALLY A STAFF ISSUE ABOUT ATTENDING TO THE DETAIL. NO, IT TOOK A LEGISLATIVE ACT TO REVERT THE ZONING. SO IT TOOK A COUNCIL DECISION, BUT THEY NEEDED TO BRING IT TO US. YEAH, IT SHOULD'VE BEEN BROUGHT. SO IT JUST GOT DROPPED ABOUT BRINGING IT TO, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT SOONER PROBABLY. BUT YEAH, I DON'T, I WOULD CONSIDER IT A TYPE OF REZONING AND IT WOULD TALK ABOUT IF YOU'RE GONNA DO RECONSIDERATION ON ANYTHING WITH ZONING, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO SAY ZONING, IT JUST SAY INVOLVING THE ZONING THAT MIGHT BE OF PROPERTY. YOU'RE LIKELY DEALING WITH VESTED INTERESTS. RIGHT. SO IF YOU JUST TOOK OUT THE RE THAT WOULD, THAT WOULD COVER IT. ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS SECTION? OKAY, LET'S MOVE ON TO FI OF COURSE HAVE SOMETHING . OF COURSE. GO AHEAD. . UM, AT THE VERY END ABOUT, YOU KNOW, NOBODY'S GONNA BE IN SOMEBODY'S EVALUATION OTHER THAN THE EMPLOYEE BEING EVALUATED. SHOULD THERE BE AN EXCEPTION UNLESS THE EVALUATED EMPLOYEE REQUESTS ADDITIONAL ATTENDEES BE CONSIDERED OR SOMETHING LIKE I JUST, IS THERE EVER A CASE WHERE AN EMPLOYEE, YOU KNOW, THAT WE ARE, SO THAT WOULD BE YOU TWO AND THE MAGISTRATE WOULD WANT SOMEBODY ELSE IN THERE BECAUSE THIS PRECLUDES IT. I, I SUPPOSE THAT'S A POTENTIAL THE JUDGE MIGHT WANT THE CITY MANAGER IN OR ME TO HELP EXPLAIN SOMETHING. MM-HMM . OKAY. G CLARIFYING COUNSEL DIRECTION. IT'S, THIS PUTS THE ONUS ON YOU, ANNETTE. MM-HMM . YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY, I THINK SOME, SOME OF THE TIME YOU DEFINITELY DO RESTATE AND I THINK WE'VE DONE A PRETTY DECENT JOB OF ASKING, YOU KNOW, WHOEVER IS THE STAFF PRESENTER, LIKE DO YOU HAVE SUFFICIENT DIRECTION? AND YEAH, SOMETIMES YOU'RE RESTATING IT, SOMETIMES THEY ARE. BUT FROM A STRICT RULES PERSPECTIVE YEAH. TO THE MAYOR'S POINT, IT'S PROBABLY BE GOOD TO MAKE SURE, ANNETTE, THAT YOU DO RESTATE FOR THE FINAL RECORD. YEP. OKAY. H RECORDING VOTES. ANYTHING THERE? YOUR HOBBY BARS. RECORDING VOTES. DO YOU WANNA, OH, DO YOU WANT ME TO GO AHEAD? YOU COULD MAKE THE POINT ABOUT, OKAY, AGAIN, ABOUT GIVING DIRECTION IS ACTUALLY, IT'S A VOTE OF AN ACTION AND I WANNA MAKE SURE THAT THAT GETS CAPTURED. YOU KNOW, WE DO THESE THUMBS UP, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE GET INTO BUDGETS, RIGHT? WE DO THESE THUMBS UP, THUMBS DOWN FOR WHAT SHOULD BE INCLUDED OR NOT. THAT'S POLICY, THAT'S ACTION. THAT'S SOMETHING I THINK OTHER THAN, YOU KNOW, HOW DOES THAT GET, WE WANT THAT CAPTURED AT, AT LEAST I WOULD LIKE THAT CAPTURED AS A RECORDED VOTE. SO YEAH. THE WAY STAFFS HAS DONE THAT IN COUNCILS IN THE PAST IS THAT'S THE DIRECTION TO GET THE BUDGET ESTABLISHED AND YOU'RE TAKING A FINAL VOTE LATER SO THAT WE'RE NOT TAKING AN INDIVIDUAL VOTE ON EVERY SINGLE ITEM THAT COMES BEFORE COUNCIL. PER, IF I'M A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC PROCEDURAL THING TO JUST MAKE IT QUICKER THAT WANTS TO KNOW HOW COUNCIL VOTED ON AN ISSUE THAT I CARE ABOUT, SUCH AS EXPAND DISC GOLF OR PUT ANOTHER PARK IN THIS LOCATION OR DON'T FUND THAT. AND WE ONLY HAVE THAT BY A MAJORITY CONSENSUS. THERE'S, THERE'S NOT A WAY FOR THE PUBLIC TO KNOW WHO HAD A, WHAT THEIR POSITION WAS ON WHAT ITEM. WHEN YOU GET INTO JOE, WHEN YOU GET INTO YOUR LIST, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO SLOW IT WAY DOWN. YEAH. WHEN YOU'RE GOING THROUGH THAT LIST OF 20 TO 25 ITEMS, THEN YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S GONNA REQUIRE A VOTE INSTEAD OF ALL OF YOU GOING THUMBS UP OR THUMBS DOWN AND THEN ME JUST STATING MAJORITY CONSENSUS, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE VERY LENGTHY. COULD THERE BE A A JUST SOMETHING THAT CAPTURES THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR NAMES YES, NO, WHATEVER. IT'S GONNA BE LENGTHY. HMM. I'M GONNA HAVE TO HAVE YOU STOP AND WAIT TILL I GET THAT WRITTEN DOWN SO THAT I CAN THEN DOCUMENT IT. IT WAS, AND IT'S NOT A REAL VOTE. I MEAN WE'RE NOT VOTING. WE'RE SAYING MOVE THIS TO THE NEXT STEP AND YOU [04:15:01] CHANGE YOUR MIND AND WE DO CHANGE OUR MIND QUITE A BIT. DURING THOSE, EACH OF THOSE YOU'LL COME BACK TO IT, YOU'LL CHANGE YOUR MIND. I'LL HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN AND THEN IT'S JUST A MORE FLUID. THAT'S A WELL THAT'S A GOOD POINT. SO IF IT WAS A VOTE, THEN TO CHANGE YOUR MIND, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO GO THROUGH A WHOLE RECONSIDERATION PROCESS. MAY I SUGGEST, UM, IF YOU WANT, WE COULD DEVELOP LIKE A LITTLE TALLY SHEET FOR, YOU KNOW, THAT DECISION PACKAGE PROCESS OR THE CIP WHATEVER, WHERE WE'RE NOTING WHO GAVE US THE THUMBS UP THUMBS, YOU KNOW, TO, TO, IF YOUR, UM, ISSUE IS HOW DO WE CAPTURE IT SO SOMEONE DOESN'T HAVE TO RE-WATCH THE WHOLE BUDGET MEETING TO SEE WHO PHYSICALLY DID THAT. I THINK WE COULD HAVE LIKE A LITTLE TALLY SHEET THAT WE KEEP WITH THE BUDGET MATERIALS ON WHO RECOMMENDED MOVING FORWARD, WHATEVER DOES THAT WORK? LIKE YEAH. AS LONG AS THEY CAPTURE IT CORRECTLY WHEN THE IT CHANGES EACH TIME IT CHANGES. WELL, AND WE COULD HAVE IT BY STAGES, RIGHT? THE MEETING ON THIS STAGE. I DON'T KNOW. I'M JUST TRYING TO THINK OF AN EASY WAY TO YOU'RE YOU'RE ADDRESSING MY CONCERN. ABSOLUTELY. YOU CAPTURED IT HAVEN IT DOCUMENTED IN THE BUDGETARY WORK PAPERS, SO TO SPEAK. MM-HMM . UM, SO WHAT WOULD HAP SO LET'S JUST CLEAN IT OUT, FOLLOW THAT. SO YOU CAPTURE IT AND THEN IF SOMEONE WILL LIKE, IT MAY BE RIGHT, IT MAY NOT BE RIGHT UNLESS YOU WANNA STOP AND TAKE A VOTE ON EVERYTHING, WHICH I AGREE WITH YOU JOE. WE'LL DOUBLE THE TIME 'CAUSE WE GO THROUGH THOSE REALLY FAST AT THE END. SO WE HAVE TO STOP, WE HAVE TO RECORD EACH ONE OF 30 ITEMS AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS THEN THAT DOCUMENT COULD BE AVAILABLE FOR ANYBODY THAT WANTED TO SEE IT OR, AND THEN WHEN WE VOTE ULTIMATELY AND WE DON'T VOTE THAT SAME WAY, HOW ARE YOU GONNA CAPTURE THAT? OH, I THINK THE NORMAL WAY WE JUST MINUTES CAPTURE THE BUDGET PROCESS AT THE END VOTING ON RIGHT. YOU THE VOTE FOR AGAINST THE ENTIRE. YEAH. YOU'RE ONLY VOTING FOR DURING THE BUDGET WORK SESSION. NOT, THEY DO ACTUALLY VOTE FOR THE APPROVAL OF THE TENTATIVE AND THE MM-HMM . UM, FINAL BUDGET IS A VOTE. YEAH. SO THAT'S RECORDED LIKE NORMAL, RIGHT? I THINK WHAT I'M HEARING IS HOW DO WE CAPTURE WHAT GUIDING DIRECTION WE RECEIVE DURING THE ITERATIONS OF THE BUDGET DEVELOPMENT. UM, BUT THAT ONLY COMES UP AT THE END WHEN WE DO THE THUMBS UP OF THAT AFTER WE'VE VETTED IT COMPLETELY. AND WHEN YOU'RE DOING THUMBS UP, THUMBS DOWN, YOU STILL HAVE TO LOOK UP AND SEE WHO YOU'VE GOT AND THAT YOU'VE GOT FOUR THUMBS UP. SO. WELL SHE DOESNT ACTUALLY, SHE DOESN'T BECAUSE WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THE PAST IS THAT THE MAYOR WILL SAY, WHERE ARE WE? YES, WE HAVE A MAJORITY AND MOST OF THE TIME PEOPLE ARE NOT CALLED OUT. PEOPLE ARE, YEAH. AND I, I CAN GET THE MAJORITY. I'M NOT ACTUALLY GETTING COUNSELOR DUNN, COUNSELOR FURMAN AND COUNSELOR FOLTZ WERE NO, AND THE MAJORITY WAS THE OTHER FOUR OR YOU. RIGHT. I'VE INFORMALLY BEEN KEEPING TRACK OF THAT , BUT, BUT I, BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO CAPTURE IS WHO WAS FOR OR AGAINST A PARK OR A TRUCK OR A PLOW OR WHATEVER, WHAT VALUES, BUT DOES IT REALLY MATTER WHEN ULTIMATELY EITHER YOU VOTE TO MOVE THE BUDGET FORWARD OR YOU DON'T? I MEAN, YOU KNOW, YOU VOTED ME OFF THE ISLAND ABOUT THE SNOWPLOW. IT IS, IT IS. WHY BROKE SNOWPLOW . IT, IT IS WHAT IT IS. YOU KNOW, I'VE STILL, IT IS WHAT IT IS. BUT DON'T YOU WANT IT KNOWN THAT YOU HAD A DISSENTING OPINION AND THAT, THAT TO BE CAPTURED SOMEHOW? THAT'S ONE THE POINT I'M ADDRESSING. IF IT'S THAT SIGNIFICANT, THE VOTERS ARE GONNA KNOW AND THEY'LL FIND OUT AND THEY'LL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE. IF APPLICABLE IS MY OPINION, MELISSA TEMPEST IN A TEAPOT. UM, IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHETHER WE DO THUMBS UP OR THUMBS DOWN ON ANY PACKAGE. THE PACKAGE THEN WILL APPEAR AGAIN BEFORE US, UM, WITH MORE DETAIL AND HOW THEY'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO DO WHATEVER THAT PACKAGE IS. EXCEPT, EXCEPT FOR SALARIES AND PEOPLE. RIGHT. UM, AND EVEN SALARIES AND PEOPLE CUT THE TOPIC COMES BACK AND, YOU KNOW, I CAN ACCRUE MORE INFORMATION OR I COULD HAVE HEARD FROM THE PUBLIC AND I MIGHT CHANGE MY MIND. SO, SO WHAT, AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S THE FINAL VOTE THAT I MAKE. NOT ALL THE INTERIM VOTES THAT I MAKE. UM, AND, AND I JUST FEEL LIKE I DON'T WANNA ADD A BURDEN TO THIS WHOLE PROCESS, WHICH IS PRETTY LENGTHY AS IT IS THEN TO HAVE THE ACTUAL ITEM COME UP WHEN WE'RE ACTUALLY VOTING THE AMOUNT OF MONEY AND WE'RE AGREEING OR WE ARE ASKING, WHERE ARE YOU GONNA GET THE MONEY FROM? THAT'S THE IMPORTANT [04:20:01] POINT. 'CAUSE THAT'S WHEN THE MONEY'S LEAVING, LEAVING THE DOORS OR THE PROJECT'S ACTUALLY GONNA GET DONE. AND SO I I JUST FEEL LIKE, I THINK OUR PROCESS WORKS. I KNOW YOU HAVE ON OCCASION ASKED FOR A VOTE TO BE IN THE RECORD. YES. AND, AND TO ME THAT THAT'S A BETTER WAY TO DO IT. IF YOU, SOMETHING IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO YOU. YOU WANNA BE ON THE RECORD. I VOTED AGAINST THIS OR I VOTED FOR THIS. THAT'S, YOU CAN REQUEST THAT. AND OUR RULES SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS THAT. YOU CAN CALL FOR A VOTE ON A VOTING MATTER, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY SAY THAT WE CAN DO THAT ON A DIRECTION MATTER. AND SO I DON'T KNOW IF WE NEED TO INCORPORATE THAT KURT OR YOU THINK THAT'S INCORPORATED SOMEHOW? I THINK IT'S ALREADY COVERED. UM, AND YOU CAN, YEAH, YOU CAN CALL FOR THAT. VOTE WHENEVER YOU WANT. SO WHERE ARE WE ON THIS? ANYONE SEE A NEED TO RECORD EVERY VOTE? NO. YOU'RE A LONE WOLF ON THIS ONE. NOT THE FIRST TIME. . I WOULD LIKE THAT ON RECORD. . ALL RIGHT. SO ANYTHING ELSE ON RECORDING? UH, VOTES. UM, ITEM TWO. OKAY. IS THERE SOMEWHERE ELSE WHERE ABSTENTIONS ARE ADDRESSED AS WELL? BECAUSE I THINK WE NEED CLARITY ON WHEN AN ABSTENTION IS ALLOWED, NOT ALLOWED UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES? UH, OTHER THAN CONFLICTS OF INTEREST. THIS IS THE ONLY CASE WHERE IT TALKS ABOUT ABSTENTION. YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN ADVANCE. MM-HMM . BASICALLY. I SEE YOUR POINT, KATHY. LIKE THIS SHOULD REALLY BE A SEPARATE STANDALONE ITEM. IT'S NOT REALLY COUNTING VOTES. IT'S A YEAH, IT SHOULD BE UP, MOVED UP TO PROBABLY LIKE, UM, YEAH. PROCEDURE COUNCIL. YEAH, THAT WOULD DO IT. RULES OF DECORUM OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND THEN DID YOU HAVE SOMETHING BRIAN? UM, JUST THINKING HISTORICALLY, I MEAN, KURT, YOU'VE ENFORCED THAT RULE AS WRITTEN, RIGHT? I MEAN, I KNOW THERE'S BEEN AT LEAST AN INSTANCE WHERE ONE OF US, I THINK WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW, CAN I ABSTAIN WHEN IT CAME TO THE TIME OF THE VOTE? AND YOU'RE LIKE, NO, YOU CAN'T, YOU GOTTA VOTE. SO, AND I, I MISSED IT ONCE TOO. YOU MISSED IT. YEAH. THAT'S WHAT'S DRIVING. I HAVEN'T FORCED IT TO IT'S, BUT OKAY. MINUTES OF THE MEETINGS. I'LL, I'LL THEN, JUST TO CLARIFY, I'LL HIGHLIGHT THAT AND I'M GOING TO, WE'RE GOOD. FIND A BETTER SECTION FOR IT. BUT OTHERWISE YOU'RE OKAY WITH THE YEAH. SO IT'S CALLED OUT UNDER, I'M FINE WITH THE PROCESS. OKAY. I JUST WANT IT SO THAT PEOPLE KNOW TO ADHERE TO IT. OKAY. YEAH. IT IS KIND OF BURIED. YEP. THANK YOU. OKAY. MINUTES OF THE MEETINGS. YOU HAVE ANYTHING KATHY? ? NO. ? YES. READING OF THE MINUTES. AND THAT'S NOT TO EXCLUDE ANYBODY ELSE. OF COURSE. IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANNA ADD. IS THAT FAVORITISM FROM THE DIOCESE? ANYTHING ON READING OF MINUTES? CORRECTIONS TO COUNCIL MINUTES. SHOULD, SHOULD. IF, IF, IF WE HAVE, THIS GOES BACK TO GETTING IN TOUCH WITH THE DEPARTMENT HEAD, BYPASSING THE CITY MANAGER, CORRECTIONS TO THE MINUTES. DO YOU WANNA BE CC'D ON THOSE? NO. RIGHT. HOW DO WE MAKE THAT? DOES THAT HAVE TO BE CLARIFIED? BECAUSE I DIDN'T THINK YOU DID. 'CAUSE IT'S USUALLY JUST THEY'RE VERY SIMPLE AND THEY'RE VERY RARE. 'CAUSE OUR MINUTES ARE EXCELLENT. GENERALLY CALL THEM IN, CALL THEM IN TO THE CITY CLERK OR PRESENT THEM IN WRITING. AND MOST OF YOU JUST EMAIL ME OR GIVE ME A CALL AND I ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS. I JUST ASK A GENERAL QUESTION. MM-HMM . SO IS, UH, REZONING CONSIDERED AMENDING A CITY CODE? YES. OKAY. JUST FELT ODD. BUT REZONING IS A BIG TOPIC IN OUR COMMUNITY. WE COULD, WE COULD PUT IT IN THERE SO IT JUST FEELS LIKE CALL IT OUT MORE. YEAH. WE SHOULD CALL IT OUT BECAUSE THERE ARE ORDINANCES. THEY'RE NOT LISTED IN THE, UH, RECORDS KEPT OF ALL ORDINANCES, BUT NOT NECESSARILY IN THE CITY CODES. SO IT'S PROBABLY, OKAY. [04:25:01] M APPROPRIATE TECHNOLOGY OF MEETINGS. ANYTHING ON THIS SUBJECT? NO. OKAY. CONFLICTS. OH, GO AHEAD MELISSA. THIS ISN'T REALLY SPECIFIC TO THIS, BUT IT CAME UP EARLIER AND IT'S AROUND TECHNOLOGY. SO AS TECHNOLOGY CHANGES, IF WE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING LIKE, UM, BEYOND SWAG, IT, WE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT ALLOWED PEOPLE TO SUBMIT, UM, THEIR QUESTIONS OR THEIR TOPIC TO BE SPOKEN TO FOR THEIR THREE MINUTES ELECTRONICALLY. WOULD WE NEED TO AMEND THIS? OR DOES ANY CHANGE IN THE WAY WE USE, UH, TECHNOLOGY JUST HAPPEN? SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'VE ACCEPTED, EXCEPT FOR THE RARE OCCASION WHEN A COUNSELOR'S READ IN SOMEONE'S COMMENTS. WE DON'T LIKE ANYONE'S COMMENTS ON AN AGENDA ITEM COME AND, AND GO TO THE CITY CLERK AND GO TO ALL THE COUNCIL AND BECOME PART OF THE RECORD. BUT THEY'RE NOT READ AT THE MEETING. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? THE ONLY TIME WE'VE DONE THAT IS IF, LIKE THEY HAD TO LEAVE EARLY AND THEY LEFT THEIR COMMENTS OR SOMETHING. WELL, WELL THAT'S, THAT'S KIND OF THE POINT. THIS IS WHAT, WHAT COUNSELOR FURMAN WAS REFERRING TO IS THAT IN SOME CASES PEOPLE CANNOT ATTEND. UM, THEY DON'T HAVE CHILDCARE OR THEY'RE WORKING AND THEY WANT TO HAVE THEIR VOICE HEARD. TODAY. WE HAVE NO MECHANISM FOR THAT. BUT IF IN THE FUTURE WE HAD A MECHANISM WHERE, I MEAN, I REALIZE I COULD EMAIL THE CLERK AND THE CLERK AND THEY HAVE, AND THE CLERK HAS DIRECTLY. RIGHT. BUT IF, AND I'M JUST SAYING IN GENERAL, IN THE FUTURE, AS TECHNOLOGY CHANGES AND PEOPLE ARE DOING SUBMISSIONS IN DIFFERENT WAYS, DO WE HAVE TO CHANGE ANYTHING HERE? IS IT JUST ASSUMED THAT AS TECHNOLOGY ADVANCES WAYS IN WHICH THE CLERK CAN BE CONTACTED FOR THOSE SORTS OF THINGS ARE JUST ASSUMED TO BE APPROPRIATE? DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? LIKE THERE'S NOTHING, NOTHING IN THE RULES AND PROCEDURES WE NEED TO CHANGE IF TECHNOLOGY OR THE WAY IN WHICH WE ACCEPT THE WAY YOU CONTACT THE CLERK CHANGES. NO, I DON'T THINK IT'S THAT SPECIFIC. THAT IT MATTERS THE WAY YOU CONTACT THEM. IF YOU'RE TALKING SPECIFIC ABOUT THE, YOU KNOW, YOUR THREE MINUTES IN PUBLIC FORUM, YOU HAVE TO BE HERE IN PERSON. YEAH. BUT YOU CAN SUBMIT AND ASK TO BE READ ON RECORD OR PUT INTO THE RECORD COULD PUT INTO THE RECORD NOT READ. WE DON'T READ. I MEAN, IF YOU OPEN THAT UP TO READ EVERY, WE HAVE, WE HAVE ON RARE OCCASIONS, LIKE FROM ANOTHER COUNSELOR OR NO MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC. SO I WOULD BE CAREFUL ABOUT THAT. 'CAUSE THEN ANYONE COULD EMAIL YOU AND SAY, READ THIS ON THE RECORD. YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO READ EVERYTHING EVERY TIME. WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I'M ASKING THIS QUESTION, BECAUSE WE DO GET EMAIL THAT SAY I'M NOT ABLE TO ATTEND. COULD YOU READ, READ THIS INTO THE RECORD AND IT HAS BEEN DONE IN THE PAST YEAH. BY CERTAIN MEMBERS OF COUNCIL. BECAUSE WE HAVE CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC THAT WILL COME AND COMMENT ON EVERY ITEM. AND SO NOW THEY WON'T EVEN HAVE TO COME. THEY'LL JUST EMAIL IT TO COUNCIL AND SAY, HEY, PLEASE READ THESE OUT FOR AND WHO'S GONNA DO THE READING OF THE ? WELL THEN, THEN THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING SPECIFIC IN THIS DOCUMENT THAT TALKS ABOUT THINGS BEING READ INTO, INTO, UM, THE PUBLIC DOCUMENT VIA COUNCIL INSTEAD OF SPEAKING YOUR THREE MINUTES OR SENDING IT LIKE TO THE CLERK WHERE IT'S JUST ADDED YEAH. TO THE RECORD. BUT WE HAVE NOTHING IN HERE THAT, THAT ADDRESSES THAT. SO IF WE THINK THAT THAT'S GONNA BE AN ISSUE, PEOPLE ASKING US TO KEEP READING THINGS INTO THE RECORD, THEN WE NEED SOMETHING HERE THAT SAYS, THAT'S REALLY NOT HOW WE DO IT. I, I HOPE THAT MAKES SENSE TO EVERYONE. MAKES SENSE. I DON'T THINK IT'S IN THIS SECTION NECESSARILY. IT IT'S NOT. IT'S JUST WHEN, WHEN IT'S A TECHNOLOGY OF MEETINGS, IT JUST OCCURRED TO ME THAT THERE'S GONNA BE OTHER WAYS PEOPLE ARE GOING TO APPROACH THIS AS A GENERATION SHIFT. RIGHT. AND SO HOW DO WE WANNA KEEP THE COUNCIL FROM HAVING TO, TO READ ALL THESE THINGS INTO THE RECORD POTENTIALLY. I THINK IT'S DISCRETIONARY RIGHT NOW. I KNOW YOU DID IT ONCE. I DID IT ONCE, YES. AND I'M NOT SURE IF THE FORMER MAYOR HOW MANY TIMES HE DID IT, BUT IN FIVE YEARS I'VE DONE IT ONCE. I DON'T THINK IT'S A HUGE ISSUE, BUT IT COULD BE LATER. AND WE CAN ALWAYS, SO YEAH, IT'LL GO IN THE PUBLIC COMMENT SECTION AND WE COULD, UM, SAY THAT GENERALLY THERE'RE ONLY GONNA BE MADE PART OF THE RECORD AT THE DISCRETION OF A COUNSELOR. THEY CAN READ IT INTO THE RECORD IF THEY WANT AND LEAVE IT LIKE THAT. IT HASN'T BEEN ABUSED YET. IT SEEMS LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SENDING ME A TEXT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, RIGHT? YEAH. I MEAN, SOMEONE, SOMEONE CAN SEND YOU A TEXT. YEAH. UM, THEY COULD LEAVE A VOICEMAIL MESSAGE. I MEAN, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF WAYS IN TECHNOLOGY. WE MIGHT CHANGE THE WAY WE DO MEETINGS AND DOOM VIA ZOOM. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WORLD HOLDS IN THE FUTURE. UM, AND, AND ZOOM OF COURSE WILL BE GONE BY THEN. [04:30:01] BUT THE WHOLE POINT IS, IS IF WE HAVE A SPECIFIC WAY IN WHICH WE WANT COMMENTS TO BE MADE IN FRONT OF COUNSEL AND, AND IN THE RECORD, THEN THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING WE TALK ABOUT HERE. THAT, THAT WAS ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY. I KNOW THAT AT TIMES, IF I'M BUSY IN AN EXECUTIVE SESSION AND THEY JUST SEND AN EMAIL TO ME, I MAY NOT GET TO IT UNTIL AFTER THE MEETING. SO IF THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPECTING ME TO SEE SOMETHING AT A FAIRLY LAST MOMENT, IT, IT, IT'S NOT GUARANTEED IT'S GONNA HAPPEN. I WILL SEND YOU ALL AN EMAIL AFTER THE FACT WITH THE I THINK YOU'VE ALL SEEN BEFORE. OKAY. WELL, I WILL, I THINK THE GENERAL RULE THAT IT'S, UM, JUST MADE PART OF THE RECORD COMMENTS EMAILED INTO COUNSEL OR TEXTED OR HOWEVER RECEIVED, IT'LL JUST BECOME PART OF THE RECORD. UM, IF, BUT THEY CAN BE READ INTO THE RECORD AT THE DISCRETION OF A COUNSELOR. THAT'S BASICALLY USING YOUR TIME TO SAY WHAT I HEARD FROM SOMEONE ELSE, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENS ANYWAY. SO, OKAY. MOVING ON TO CONFLICTS OF INTEREST. ANYTHING IN THIS SECTION I DO, UM, IN, IN TWO. I WOULD LIKE SOME RECOGNITION THAT THERE ARE GONNA BE OTHER ETHICAL RULES SOME OF US ARE GONNA HAVE TO FOLLOW. UM, I HAVE TO RUN A CONFLICT CHECK WITH MY FIRM BEFORE EVERY MEETING, UH, TO MAKE SURE THAT ONE OF MY VOTES IS NOT VIOLATING RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT. UM, KURT, YOU MAY FEEL LIKE THAT'S ALREADY IN THE COMPELLING PERSONAL CONVICTIONS. NO, WE CAN, WE CAN. I THINK IT'S WORTH CALLING OUT. UH, BUT DO WE WANT JUST ETHICAL OR ARE THERE ANY OTHER SCENARIOS WE CAN THINK OF? I MEAN, REALLY, I, I MEAN AT LEAST FOR, FROM A LAWYER STANDPOINT, IT'S RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT. BUT I MEAN, THERE COULD BE, I DON'T KNOW. WE COULD HAVE A DOCTOR ON COUNSEL AT SOME POINT THAT WOULD BE BOUND BY ANOTHER SET OF RULES OR AN ACCOUNTANT OR, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T, I MEAN, I'M ONLY, I ONLY CONCERN MYSELF WITH WHAT LAWYERS HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT. BUT, UM, I WOULD JUST LIKE SOME RECOGNITION THERE THAT, AND THEN KATHY, I THINK THIS IS WHERE THE ABSTENTION LANGUAGE WOULD FIT IN UNDER NEW ABSTENTIONS. WELL, YOU FOLLOWED THAT ON I THINK ONE OR TWO OCCASIONS. YOU'VE LEFT THE DAIS, YOU'VE ANNOUNCED IT, YOU'VE FOLLOWED THE RIGHT. VERY ACCURATE. YEAH. JUST, BUT IT, YOU KNOW, IT SAYS IT'S TO BE DISCOURAGED. UM, 'CAUSE I'M NOT, I MEAN, WHEN I'VE, SO FAR, WHEN I'VE RECUSED, IT'S BEEN ON THE BA IT HASN'T BEEN ON N ONE. IT'S BEEN SORT OF A STRETCH READING OF N TWO, I THINK. WELL, I THINK YOU'RE OVERLY CAUTIOUS AS YOU SHOULD BE. YEAH. AND I MAY, I HAVE A COMPELLING PERSONAL CONVICTION NOT TO LOSE MY BAR LICENSE, BUT SO, BUT I WOULD COUNCILLOR FAF, HOW DOES JUST ADD IN ETHICAL OR PROFESSIONAL RULES OR, YEAH, SOME JUST A GENERIC, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE VERY SPECIFIC. AND THEN THIS IS WHERE WE CAN PUT A NEW ABSTENTION LANGUAGE. WE'LL, OR PULL IT DOWN FROM UP ABOVE. OKAY. NOW IN THIS NEXT SECTION, IT HAS ALL THE, EXCUSE ME, THE TIME LIMITS. WE REALLY SHOULD CLEAN THAT UP SINCE WE'RE NOT PUTTING THEM ON THE AGENDA ANYMORE. MM-HMM . WE ALSO HAVE THAT FOUR HOUR MEETING, MEETING TIME, FOUR HOURS, RIGHT? NO ONE'S, NO ONE'S EVER INVOKED. YEAH. THAT'D BE A EIGHT 30, YOU COULD SAY. WELL, ACTUALLY THERE WAS, THERE WAS A MEETING AT WHICH A COUNSELOR WHO WAS NO LONGER ON COUNCIL OBJECTED TO THE AMOUNT OF TIME AND WE ADJOURNED. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT? JUST A SECOND. YEAH. YEAH. . AND SO HOW DID THAT HAPPEN UNDER THIS AND HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN? MAYOR, HERE IT SAYS ANY COUNSELOR MAY MAKE A MOTION, BUT THERE, WAS THERE AN ACTUAL MOTION? I DON'T REMEMBER A VOTE. 'CAUSE IT, I THINK THE MAYOR JUST WENT ALONG WITH IT. SO CAN ANY MAYOR JUST ADJOURN A MEETING AT ANY TIME? WELL, NOT ACCORDING TO THIS. YOU HAVE TO MAKE A MOTION. IT'S A MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT. RIGHT? IT'S UNDER, BUT UP ABOVE. I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T, THAT IT'S CLEAR THAT THAT CAN'T HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. SINCE WE HAD AN INSTANCE OF IT HAPPENING. I WANNA MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN. RIGHT. WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE PERSON PRESIDING SAYS, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'RE DONE. I WANNA AVOID THAT. YEAH, WE CAN ADD A SECTION ABOUT THE COUNCIL OF VOTE ON IT. RIGHT. WELL, SO IT'S IT MOTION. IT'S A MOTION. BUT IT DOESN'T SPECIFICALLY SAY IT'S A, SO IT'S A MOTION WHEN . YEAH. I'M, I'M GONNA HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THAT ONE. I, OKAY. UM, [04:35:01] BUT YEAH, IT'S A MOTION IF IT'S SOMETHING STILL KIND OF PENDING. SO HERE'S THE RULE UP THERE AND THEN HOW YOU SQUARE THAT WITH, AT THE END OF THE, AND WHEN WE'RE ALL DONE WITH IT, AGAIN, THE MAYOR JUST SAYS WE'RE ADJOURNED AND HITS THE GAVEL. AND THEN WE'RE, YOU KNOW, GENERALLY THAT'S HOW WE END EACH MEETING. SO, ALL RIGHT. BUT DOES IT, IT SAYS RECESS, RIGHT? SO ANYTIME IT'S RECESS, THAT MEANS YOU'RE STATING WHEN IT'S GONNA BE COMING BACK IF IT'S NOT FINISHED. AM I READING THAT? THAT'S THE UH, MOTION TO APPEAR? YEAH. A MOTION. I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, JOE. IT WOULD BE RECESS TO RECESS IN NUMBER TWO. THAT'S IF RECESS THE TIME AND PLACE CERTAIN, WE CARRIED IT TO THE WEDNESDAY MEETING THEN WHATEVER. BUT IT WAS A WAY OF KILLING AN ITEM, BASICALLY IS WHAT IT WAS. WASN'T IT? IT WASN'T IT ON A WEDNESDAY ITEM, LIKE A GUN ON FOR A WHILE. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THAT. BUT I THINK, I THINK IT , WAS IT THE HOUSING THAT WAS ON A TUESDAY THAT THEN WENT ON TO WEDNESDAY? SORRY, WAS IT A HOUSING ITEM? THAT WAS ON TUESDAY AND THEN WE CONTINUED IT ON TO WEDNESDAY. I DON'T REMEMBER. I HONESTLY DON'T REMEMBER. ALL RIGHT. SO LET'S LOOK AT, UM, GENERAL NUMBER ONE, D ONE, D TWO. ANYTHING ON THOSE THREE THREE? THE A NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP AGAIN. YEAH. YEAH. THIS IS GONNA BE, THIS IS GONNA HAVE YOUR NAME ON IT. JOE . SO IF IT TURNS OUT POORLY, WE'LL REMEMBER WHO DID IT AT THE END. AND JUST A MOTION TO ADJOURN. ALRIGHT, I'LL LOOK AT THAT. OKAY. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ON ANYTHING ELSE ON AGENDAS? YOU, YOU CAUGHT THAT THREE A RIGHT? KURT? THREE A TIME LIMIT. OKAY. DO WE, WE DON'T WANT IT TO INCLUDE IT AT ALL. NO. 'CAUSE WE DON'T PUT TIME LIMITS ON THE AGENDA. IT'S A MAY THOUGH. IT'S A MAY. SO IF WE DECIDED TO PUT 'EM BACK ON, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'D HAVE A POINT, BUT JUST DELETE THE SENTENCE. THAT'S THE, OKAY. I DON'T CARE. MAYOR, CAN I ASK A QUESTION? WELL, ARE WE DELETING ALL OF IT? 'CAUSE THERE'S NO TIME LIMIT BEING APPROACHED. GO AHEAD. I'M SORRY. DID YOU FINISH YOUR QUESTION, KURT, BEFORE I ASK A NEW QUESTION? WAS THE CONSENSUS TO DELETE ALL OF THREE A JUST THE WHOLE, OKAY. MM-HMM . I HAD A GENERAL QUESTION FOR KURT. UM, DO WE NEED TO SPECIFY IN THIS DOCUMENT ANYTHING ABOUT COMPLYING WITH THE A DA AND ALL OF OUR AGENDAS AND NOTICES? OR IS IT JUST, WE'RE JUST GONNA DO THAT ANYWAY? 'CAUSE I HAVE HAD SOME THOUGHTS ON WHAT WE PUT ON THE BOTTOM OF OUR AGENDA FOR COMPLIANCE WITH THE A DA. AND I DIDN'T KNOW IF IT REALLY HAS TO BE CALLED OUT IN THE RULES OF PROCEDURE. IT CAN BE IF COUNCIL WANTS IT TO, IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE. IT'S ALREADY ON THE AGENDA. SO IT'S, IT'S MORE OF AN HR ISSUE AND, AND CITY'S OBLIGATIONS TO BE OPEN TO A DA. SO I DON'T THINK IT NEEDS TO BE IN THE RULES. OKAY. THEN ON FOUR B NEEDS IS ANOTHER REPEAT OF TIME LIMITS. WELL, WE DO HAVE A PRESENTATION TIME LIMIT THOUGH, RIGHT? AN ESTIMATION. WELL, PRESENTERS SHALL MAKE EVERY ATTEMPT TO STAY WITHIN THE TIME IN THE AGENDA BILL? AGENDA BILL THE AGENDA BILL. BUT THAT DOES EXIST. THAT ONE EXISTS NOT AN OVERALL MM-HMM . IN THE AGENDA. BUT WE SAY HOW LONG THE PRESENTATION'S SUPPOSED TO TAKE. SO YEAH. BUT DOESN'T IT SAY THAT AND TOTAL TIME PER ITEM, DOES IT SAY WHAT? TOTAL TIME FOR THE ITEM? YEAH. ESTIMATES. YES IT DOES. AND THAT'S AN ESTIMATE THAT WE PUT ON THERE. AND MY LITTLE INTERNAL RULE OF THUMB IS I ALWAYS ADD AT LEAST 35 MINUTES. 'CAUSE I FIGURE THERE'S SEVEN OF YOU AND FIVE MINUTES EACH IS 35 , . UM, AND THEN IF IT'S SOMETHING MORE CONTROVERSIAL, THEN I USUALLY DOUBLE THAT OR TRIPLE THAT. BUT, UM, SO WE TRY TO DO AN ESTIMATE, BUT SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE, IT'S NEVER BEEN A HARD, LIKE WE ONLY HAVE X MINUTES BASED ON THE STAFF'S ESTIMATE. BUT, [04:40:01] YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO WELL, BECAUSE REGULATE THAT STRONGER, YOU, YOU CAN, HAVE WE EVER GONE UNDER AN ESTIMATE? YEAH. SOMETHING. YEAH. I MEAN, THEY'RE ALL STILL ON THE AGENDA BILL. TIME TO PRESENT AND THEN TOTAL TIME. YEAH. BUT THIS ADDITIONAL TIME MAY BE GRANTED A DISCRETION OF THE MAYOR. I MEAN, WE'RE NOT REALLY FOLLOWING THE TIME. I DON'T THINK IT NEEDS TO. DO YOU THINK IT NEEDS TO BE THERE DISCRETION OF THE MAYOR TO EXTEND THE STAFF'S PRESENTATION? I THINK IT REALLY GETS COMPLICATED BECAUSE WE TEND TO INTERRUPT STAFF WITH QUESTIONS. AND SO HOW LONG WAS THEIR PRESENTATION VERSUS HOW LONG WAS THEIR PRESENTATION WITH ALL THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS IN THE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN US AND BETWEEN US AND THEM. SO IT JUST FEELS LIKE THAT'S KIND OF AN UNFAIR BURDEN ON STAFF TO TRY AND KEEP TO A TIME THAT WE HAVE DISRUPTED. AND WE COULD LEAVE, WE COULD LEAVE THE FIRST SENTENCE SINCE THAT'S AN INTERNAL AND JUST STRIKE THE SECOND ONE. OKAY. I AGREE WITH THAT. YEP. DOES THAT WORK FOR EVERYBODY? OKAY. AND C WE DON'T HAVE ANY LANGUAGE IN THERE ABOUT CONSOLIDATION OF CARDS, WHICH WE ALSO DO OCCASIONALLY. UH, WE, WE HAVE THAT. AND SO LET ME HIGHLIGHT THIS. THERE'S A PUBLIC FORUM AND PUBLIC COMMENTS SECTION. SO I THINK THIS, THIS WOULD BE BETTER MOVED TO THAT SECTION THAT WE'LL GET TO. OKAY. AND IT DOES HAVE IN THERE THAT THE MAYOR'S DISCRETION THAT HE CAN ALLOT MORE TIME TO GROUPS OF PEOPLE OR THE CONSOLIDATION OF CARDS. WELL, SHOULD FOUR THEN FOCUS ON STAFF PRESENTATIONS? YEAH. I THINK IT SHOULD JUST FOCUS ON PRESENTATIONS AND NOT HAVE PUBLIC INPUT. YEAH. YEP. AND THEN WE WILL MOVE THIS NOW IN THAT OTHER SECTION WE HAVE CONDUCT OF THE PUBLIC. YES. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL GET THERE WHEN WE GET THERE THEN. OKAY. ORDER OF BUSINESS. OKAY. UNDER, UM, D AGAIN, WE TALKED ABOUT THAT CONSENT ITEM. THAT A PULLED ITEM. YOU KNOW, I I, I'D LIKE TO SEE A PULLED ITEM REFERENCED THERE THAT IT BE MOVED AS THE FIRST ITEM OF REGULAR BUSINESS. SO BASICALLY STANDARD ITEM ON THE AGENDAS COULD BE ANY ITEM. WHAT IS IT? EIGHT. IT STARTS THE PUBLIC. EIGHT A WOULD BE CONSIDERATION OF ANY ITEMS PULLED FROM THE CONSENT AGENDA. THEN EIGHT B BECOMES, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST REGULAR ITEM. SO I WOULD, THAT WAY IT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER AND STANDARDIZE IT. THEN WE COULD DO IT UNDER TWO, IT'D BE UNDER TWO CONSENT ITEMS. YEAH. UH, UNDER ONE WE WERE GONNA SEPARATE F AND GIVE THE EXECUTIVE SESSION REPORT OUT ITS OWN. RIGHT. RIGHT. ELEMENT. SO COUNSELOR CONSELLA ADDRESSING YOURS FIRST. I WOULD PUT IT DOWN HERE AT THE END OF THE CONSENT SECTION, OR LET'S SEE. MM-HMM . IS IT REMOVED? WHAT DO WE DO WITH CONSENT ITEMS? PULLED YEAH. POLLED ITEMS. WELL, IN, IN BULLET D ABOVE, IT TALKS ABOUT FOLLOWING THE REMOVAL OF ITEMS. SO I THINK THEN THERE'S NO DEBATE. THAT'S THE LANGUAGE IS REMOVAL. OKAY. FOR IF YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT CONSISTENCY. OH YEAH. AH, RIGHT. FIRST UNDER REGULAR BUSINESS. MM-HMM . NOW YOU ADDED ABOUT $200,000. OH, IT WAS, THAT'S, SO WE'VE BEEN, THAT WAS JUST AN IDEA. UM, THAT'S COUNCIL'S KIND OF BEEN, THAT'S WHAT COUNSELORS HAVE SUGGESTED TO ME IN PREVIOUS, UM, CONVERSATIONS WHEN YOU'RE REVIEWING AGENDA IS THAT'S BEEN ABOUT THE GENERAL RANGE OF, UM, THE SIZE OF CONTRACTS OR ACTIONS THAT, UM, I'VE HEARD FROM FOLKS THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO PULL IT FOR TRANSPARENCY REASONS BECAUSE OF THE DOLLAR AMOUNT. UM, SO THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN APPLYING INTERNALLY. BUT I HAVE HAD QUESTIONS, UM, FROM STAFF ABOUT, UM, BECAUSE THEY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, THEY DON'T WANT TO GO THROUGH AND REQUEST A CONSENT ITEM AND HAVE IT PULLED AND LOOK LIKE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME DISAGREEMENTS. SO IF WE HAVE A MORE CLEAR DIRECTION FROM YOU ON WHAT YOUR THRESHOLD IS FOR DOLLAR AMOUNTS, THAT'S JUST HELPFUL FOR US INTERNALLY AS WELL. NOT TO GO THROUGH THE EFFORT TO PUT IT ON THE CONSENT. WHAT WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH YOUR SIGNING AUTHORITY FOR CONTRACTS AND YOUR SIGNING AUTHORITY FOR AMENDMENTS. ISN'T THAT 150? MM-HMM . SO I WOULD RECOMMEND 150 BE THE THRESHOLD. THEN INFLATION PROTECT US TOO AS COST ESCALATE. IT'S, BUT, BUT THOSE ONES DON'T EVEN COME TO COUNCIL GENERALLY. THAT'S FINE. YEAH. THEY DON'T. THEY DON'T. SO THEY WON'T EVER EVEN BE ON A CONS. THEY WON'T EVEN BE ON THE AGENDA PERIOD. HE'S SAYING FOR ANYTHING ABOVE MY, WHATEVER IS REQUIRING A SIGNATURE OF THE COUNCIL UNDER OUR PROCUREMENT RULES [04:45:01] IS WHAT I'M HEARING HAS TO BE A REGULAR ITEM. EVEN IF IT'S JUST NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS. SO IF WE'RE RENEWING SOMETHING OR RIGHT. SO WE JUST HAD LIKE, THE RENEWAL OF OUR A DP CONTRACT OR SERVICE AGREEMENT. IT'S TUESDAY. UM, BUT THAT'S OVER 200,000, CORRECT? YEAH. SO IT'S OVER YEAR AUTHORITY. IT IS. DID IT NOT STAY ON THE CONSENT? I FEEL LIKE ON IS ON THE CONSENT. 'CAUSE THAT'S LIKE A NORMAL ROUTINE BUSINESS MATTER. I THINK IT'S ON REGULAR BUSINESS. IT'S NOT UNDER OH, ISN'T UNDER REGULAR. OKAY. YEAH. THEY WANNA JUST, YEAH. SO THAT'S, THAT'S HOW WE'VE BEEN DOING IT TODAY. IT WAS JUST A ROUGH WHAT ABOUT IT? EXCEPT IF YOU WANNA CHANGE IT TO THE PROCUREMENT, ANYTHING REQUIRING THE COUNCIL'S SIGNATURE HAS TO BE A REGULAR BUSINESS ITEM THAT, THAT WILL ADD A LOT OF STUFF. YEAH. THAT MAKES IT RATHER JUST DELETE THIS AND GO BACK AND SEE WHAT CAN GET BY AND CONSENT. DOES THAT WORK FOR DELETE IT. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE IN, UH, CONSENT? ALRIGHT, SO, UH, BEFORE WE GET, WE HAD MOVED UNDER, SO EXECUTIVE EXECUTIVE SESSION REPORT, YOU WANTED ITS OWN. OKAY. OKAY. AND THEN AGAIN, YOU HAVE THIS UNDER TWO B ABOUT REMOVING CONSENT ITEMS. SO JUST LET'S RECONCILE THIS AND MAKE IT CONSISTENT. SO ALL OF THE, AND IT IS WORDY, BUT ALL OF THE A THROUGH E HAVE TO DO WITH, IF YOU REMOVE AN ITEM, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE REMAINING CONSENT ITEMS? RIGHT. AND THEY HAVE TO BE VOTED ON. YOU CAN'T DISCUSS 'EM AND, BUT IT OKAY. IT DOES NOT ADDRESS, THAT'S WHY I PUT IT IN. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE REMOVE CONSENT ITEMS. OKAY. AND THEY'RE GONNA GO FIRST UNDER REGULAR BUSINESS. IT'LL BE, IT WILL BECOME A NEW EIGHT. RIGHT. OKAY. DOUBLE A OR SOMETHING. GOOD. OKAY. RECLAMATIONS, WE WON'T LIST IT ON THE AGENDA, BUT IT WILL KNOW THAT THAT'S WHERE IT'S GONNA COME FIRST IS THE FIRST REGULAR AGENDA RIGHT. AFTER EVERYTHING ELSE. EXACTLY. OKAY. SO THE PROCLAMATIONS, THESE, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS. I JUST THINK THAT WE, SOMETHING WAS, WAS HAPPENING THAT WENT BEYOND THIS. AND I WANNA MAKE SURE THAT ANYTHING THAT'S GONNA HAPPEN CONFORMS TO THIS, UM, RECOGNIZING OF INDIVIDUALS, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I, I THINK THAT WAS NOT, THE INDIVIDUALS DID NOT DESERVE RECOGNITION, BUT IT WAS BEING NOT USED IN A WAY, I THINK COMPLIANT WITH OUR INTENTIONS. SO IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH FOR PEOPLE? WELL, IT DOESN'T ADDRESS THAT. YEAH. IT DOESN'T ADDRESS IT AT ALL. AND IT'S NOT ADDRESSED IN THE RULES. THE AGENDA HERE SAYS RECOGNITIONS AND AWARDS, BUT I DON'T THINK THE RULES ADDRESS RECOGNITIONS OR AWARDS. SO DID WE ACTUALLY CONVOLUTE THIS PART, WHICH DIDN'T EVEN APPLY? I MEAN, YOU COULD MAKE IT. DO YOU WANT THE SAME PROCEDURE TO, TO APPLY TO RECOGNITIONS AND AWARDS AS WELL? MM-HMM . YEAH. OKAY. NOW, RECENTLY A PROCLAMATION CAME TO COUNCIL AND TWO COUNSELORS OPPOSED IT, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHETHER TWO COUNSELORS SPONSORED IT. YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? THE ONE THAT'S COMING UP SHORTLY. YEAH, YOU BOTH DID ON YOUR OWN. RIGHT. BUT LIKE TO, TO READ IT FOR COUNCIL, BUT IF YOU READ THIS, IT'S, IT DOESN'T TALK ABOUT ANYBODY OPPOSING ANYTHING. IT JUST TALKS ABOUT TWO COUNSELORS PLACING IT ON THE AGENDA. THERE'S NO PROCESS FOR WHEN THERE'S AN OBJECTION. BUT WE DON'T EVEN, WELL, NO. WHEN A REQUEST HAS COME THROUGH YEAH. BUT JOE SENDS US YEAH, YOU DO. I HAVE, IF IF THE PEOPLE DON'T REACH OUT TO COUNCIL DIRECTLY OR TO COUNCIL MEMBERS TO GET SUPPORT AND THEY EMAIL ME, I FORWARD IT TO KEY CITY COUNCIL. YES. BUT IF SOMEBODY SENDS IT TO YOU AND SAYS, I ALREADY HAVE TWO COUNSELORS IN SUPPORT, OR THREE COUNSELORS IN SUPPORT, IT'LL JUST ENDS UP THERE. AND PEOPLE DON'T EVEN HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO LIKE OBJECT TO IT UNTIL [04:50:01] IT GETS TO THE POINT OF THE MEETING AND THEN IT'S ALREADY DONE. BUT IT ONLY TAKES, IF THERE'S ALREADY TWO COUNSELORS SUPPORTING IT, IT AUTOMATICALLY GOES ON THE AGENDA REGARDLESS IF THERE IS ANY OPPOSITION. THAT'S HOW YOU'VE SET IT UP. I KNOW. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SAYING. AND I, AND THERE'S A TIME SENSITIVITY TO IT. SO WHAT I'VE OUTLINED FOR PEOPLE IS THAT WHEN AGENDA BILLS ARE DUE, THAT WHOLE COMPLETED APPROVAL PROCESS AND ALL THE LANGUAGE IS DUE TO ME, SO THAT I CAN THEN ADD IT, HAVE IT READY FOR THE PACKET. SO IF YOU'RE WANTING TO THEN VOTE ON A PROCLAMATION THAT'S BEING PROPOSED, THAT'S GONNA PUT THAT TIMEFRAME OUT A MONTH EARLIER FOR I THINK HOW EMBARRASSING IT IS WHEN YOU HAVE A PROCLAMATION READY AND THE PEOPLE ARE IN THE AUDIENCE TO RECEIVE IT, AND IT'S ON THE CONSENT AGENDA. OKAY. SOMEBODY HAS TO PULL IT OFF THE CONSENT AGENDA AND THEN YES. AND THEN SPEAK TO WHY THEY DON'T BELIEVE THAT PROCLAMATION IS IN ORDER. AND THEN THERE'S A VOTE OF COUNSEL. I'VE NEVER HAD THAT HAPPEN SINCE I'VE BEEN IN THE CITY CLERK'S OFFICE. I KNOW, BUT WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS THERE'S NO PROCESS TO AVOID THAT FROM HAPPENING. AND THERE IS ONE THAT IS, IT JUST HAPPENED WHERE IT'S CONTROVERSIAL. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN TWO COUNSELORS SAY YES, AND TWO COUNSELORS SAY, NO, IT'S NOT COVERED IN HERE. BUT THE TWO COUNSELORS THAT SAID NO ALSO TURNED AROUND AND SAID YES, AS LONG AS IT WASN'T BEING OKAY. BUT, BUT, BUT THAT'S, FORGET ABOUT THAT PART. . WHAT IF TWO COUNSELORS SAID YES AND TWO COUNSELORS SAID NO? I MEAN, DID YOU HAVE TWO COUNSELORS WHO SAID YES S NO, YOU NOT WITH THE INITIAL REQUEST. RIGHT. OKAY. BUT BOTH OF YOU CAME TO ME AFTERWARDS AND SAID YOU SUPPORT IT JUST AS A CITY COUNCIL. BUT, BUT YOU'RE MISSING MY POINT. WHEN TWO CA WHEN YOU SEND IT OUT AND TWO COUNSELORS RAISE THEIR HAND AND SAY, I SUPPORT IT, THEN IT AUTOMATICALLY, TWO OUT OF SEVEN AUTOMATICALLY BECOMES A PROCLAMATION. RIGHT. ON THE CONSENT, THAT AGENDA, I DIDN'T HAVE ANYBODY ELSE OPPOSING IT OTHER THAN THE TWO WHO THEN HAD IT ADDED TO AN AGENDA. MAYOR AND COUNCIL, THERE'S, THERE'S NO WAY TO DETERMINE WHETHER MAJORITY OF COUNCIL SUPPORTS IT OR NOT BEFORE IT ENDS UP ON AN AGENDA. IT'S NOT ABOUT, IT'S THE TWO COUNSELORS. . ALL IT TAKES IS TWO OUT OF SEVEN. NO, IT TAKES, IF A COUNSELOR'S PROPOSING IT, IT TAKES TWO ADDITIONAL ONES. IF THE ORGANIZATION COUNSELOR PROPOSING THIS IS A, THIS IS A COMMITTEE, THE ORGANIZATION PROPOSE IT, IT TAKES TWO. WE COULD CHANGE THAT TO THREE, BUT WE CAN'T CHANGE IT TO FOUR. NO, THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THAT'S NOT THE POINT EITHER. WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT WHAT IF PEOPLE OBJECT TO THAT ORGANIZATION FOR SOME REASON? HOW DOES IT GET VETTED? BUT THEN THE ONLY THING THAT THAT CAN HAPPEN IS IT HAS TO COME BEFORE COUNCIL AS A DISCUSSION. RIGHT. SO NOW WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A PUBLIC DISCUSSION ON AN ORGANIZATION WHICH HAS A POTENTIAL FOR DAMAGING AND TARNISHING THE ORGANIZATION ITSELF. THAT'S CORRECT. RIGHT. SO IF IT'S TWO AND TWO, I DON'T KNOW. I, IT JUST, NO, MY POINT IS IT'S EVER GETS TO TWO AND TWO BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS IS TWO COUNSELORS SAY, WE, WE WANT, WE SUPPORT THIS REQUEST, IT GOES FORWARD ON THE AGENDA. AT THAT POINT, ONLY TWO COUNSELORS HAVE, HAVE ACTUALLY DETERMINED AN AGENDA ITEM. THE CITY MANAGER CAN ALSO ADD IT ION TO, IT HAS TO GO THROUGH A PUBLIC PROCESS. SO OF, OF, WE CAN CHANGE IT TO THREE. BUT THERE'S NO WAY TO CHANGE IT TO FIND OUT WHAT FOUR COUNSELORS, IF IT'S TWO AND TWO, WE WILL NEVER KNOW BEFORE A MEETING. 'CAUSE WE CAN ONLY FIND THAT OUT AT A PUBLIC MEETING. RIGHT. AND THE TIMEFRAME WILL BE PASSED IF ON THE APPLICANT TO FIND FOUR, WE DON'T HAVE TO DISCUSS ABOUT IT. THEY CAN SAY, COULD YOU JUST SAY IT HAS TO BE FOUR PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT IT? AND THEN 'CAUSE THEN YOU'RE HAVING BASICALLY AN OPEN MEETING. YEAH. YOU'RE, YOU'RE ALL DECIDE. NO, YOU'RE, IT'S A, YOU'VE TAKEN ACTION. FOUR OF YOU HAVE SUPPORTED IT OUTSIDE OF A PUBLIC MEETING. ASK THE INDIVIDUAL, THE ORGANIZATION WOULD ASK FOUR PEOPLE TO SEND THE CLERK A MESSAGE SAYING THEY SUPPORT IT. WE DON'T KNOW WHO ELSE. WE HAVEN'T HAD A CONVERSATION. IT'LL BE ON THE AGENDA. BUT IT'S ACTION. IT'S ACTION. YOU DON'T, YOU MAY NOT, IT WON'T BE THE DISCUSSION, BUT IT'LL HAVE BEEN PUBLIC OR ACTION THAT'LL BEEN TAKEN OUTSIDE OF A COUNCIL. SO REQUIRING FOUR TO PUT IT ON THE AGENDA WOULD BE CONSIDERED ACTION. YES. THAT'S FOUR. OKAY. THAT'S A QUORUM OF COUNSEL TAKING A LEGAL ACTION OUTSIDE OF AN AGENDA. SO THE MOST YOU COULD DO IS CHANGE THIS TO THREE TO TRY TO ELIMINATE THE POTENTIAL OF THREE COUNSELORS SUPPORTING IT. THEN THERE'S LIKELY THAT THERE'S ONE MORE OUT THERE. I DON'T SEE A WAY AROUND THIS OTHER THAN IF SOMEBODY IS OPPOSED, WHETHER IT'S ONE OR THREE COUNSELORS OPPOSE IT AFTER IT'S ON PULLING IT OFF AND DOING IT IN A PUBLIC WAY. I DON'T SEE A WAY AROUND IT WITH OPEN MEETINGS, LAW REQUIREMENTS. THAT'S, YEAH, THAT WAS MY POINT, IS WE'RE GONNA, THERE'S NO WAY TO SAVE ANY FACE IF IT'S GONNA BE OPPOSED. IT HAS TO BE DONE PUBLICLY. UNLESS THEY, I GUESS THEY, UNLESS THEY APPROACH YOU [04:55:01] BEFOREHAND AND YOU HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THE ONES THEY'RE LOOKING TO GET SUPPORT ONE OF THE THREE. AND THEN YOU TELL 'EM. SO LET ME JUST ASK THIS QUESTION OF, JOE, DID YOU HAVE TWO COUNSELORS IN SUPPORT OF THIS PROCLAMATION WHEN TWO COUNSELORS OPPOSED IT? I DON'T KNOW THAT I'VE EVER HAD THAT HAPPEN. NO, SHE UNTIL RECENTLY. OKAY. UNTIL RECENTLY? NO, UNTIL THIS LAST ONE. OKAY. BUT THE TWO HAVE NEVER HAD IT HAPPEN. WERE THE TWO THAT ENDED UP THERE WAS NOBODY IN SUPPORT OF IT. OH, THAT'S MY AT, THAT'S MY QUESTION IN HAVE ANYONE SUPPORT OF IT. NOBODY SUPPORTIVE IT TWO CAME OUT IN OPPOSITION. THE TWO IN OPPOSITION WORKED IT THROUGH TO SAY WE WILL SUPPORT IT WITH THESE VARIOUS CHANGES AND CAVEATS AND WHATEVER. AND THAT'S, IT WAS THE SAME TOO. SO, OKAY. RIGHT. I'M THERE. AND ALSO THE CITY MANAGER CAN ADD A PROCLAMATION TO THE AGENDA. THAT WOULDN'T HAVE HELPED. THAT WOULD NOT HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE. NO, BUT IT WOULD MAKE IT CONSISTENT WITH COUNSELORS PUTTING IT ON THE AGENDA. WHY, WHY, WHY IS A DIFFERENT PROCESS. IT ALSO REDUCE THE LIKELIHOOD OF AN EMBARRASSING YEAH. NO, WE'RE NOT GONNA MAKE THIS PROCLAMATION IF THREE OUT OF SEVEN HAVE ALREADY SAID. YEAH. LET'S, WOULD THAT BE A, UH, ONEROUS CHANGE TO REQUEST OF ORGANIZATIONS? DO YOU FEEL, JOE OH. TO SAY, HEY, IF WE GET THREE COUNSELORS INSTEAD OF TWO COUNSELORS IN ORDER TO GET YOUR REQUEST ON THE AGENDA? NO, BECAUSE TYPICALLY WHEN THERE'S SUPPORT, THERE'S MORE THAN TWO. OKAY. OKAY. SO LET'S CHANGE IT TO THREE. OKAY. IF EVERYBODY AGREES WITH THAT. AND DO WE LEAVE BY THE CITY MANAGER OR JUST ON THE AGENDA WITH THE SPONSORSHIP OF ANY THREE COUNSELORS? THE SAME POTENTIAL FOR A PROBLEM APPLIES. THE CITY MANAGER BRINGS SOMETHING FORWARD, DOESN'T KNOW HOW THE COUNCIL'S GONNA FEEL ABOUT IT. SO I, I WANT TO, I TY I HAVEN'T HAD ANYBODY JUST COME TO ME DIRECTLY WITHOUT TALKING TO ANY OF YOU. I HAVEN'T HAD THAT. UM, I DID HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT ONE, AND THEY HAD REACHED OUT TO US TO GET BETTER CLARIFICATION ON WHAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR A CITY PROCLAMATIONS OR TECHNICAL QUESTION. BUT, UM, TYPICALLY I THINK ENTITIES GO AND SOLICIT YOUR SUPPORT, UM, PER YOUR RULES. UM, AND I'M, I WOULD NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE PUTTING A PROCLAMATION ON AN AGENDA THAT HAS HAD ZERO, UM, INPUT FROM THE COUNCIL THROUGH THIS. SO IF WE REMOVE CITY MANAGER AND REQUIRE THREE COUNSELORS MM-HMM . SHE COULD STILL BRING IT TO US, BUT IT WOULD STILL TAKE THREE OF US TO CORRECT. YEAH. I MEAN, THAT MAKES SENSE. OKAY. YEAH. AND SOMETIMES IT JUST HELPS IF IT'S TURNED IN AT THE LAST MINUTE FOR THE CITY MANAGER TO EXPEDITE IT, SAY IT'S A ROUTINE ONE THAT HAPPENS EVERY YEAR, LIKE SAID KINDNESS, SOMETIMES IN THE PAST, THE PREVIOUS CITY MANAGERS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SAY, YEAH, JOE, GO AHEAD. 'CAUSE IT COULD BE ON A THURSDAY AND THEN THEY WANT IT IN THE NEXT PACKET WHERE I'VE GOTTA HAVE THAT INFORMATION THE NEXT WEEK FOR AN AGENDA TEAM. UM, FOR AGENDA PACKET PROCESS. WELL, WELL, I THINK UNDER THIS PROPOSED REVISION, IF SOMEONE DID COME TO ME AT THE LAST MINUTE AND IT WAS ROUTINE, I WOULD STILL LET YOU GUYS KNOW. ALL RIGHT. READY TO MOVE ON SUMMARY OF CURRENT EVENTS, I AM GOING TO ASK, UM, THE ATTORNEY AS OUR PARLIAMENTARIAN, UM, TO HELP US WITH THIS, UH, IN MEETINGS. 'CAUSE THERE WERE TWO INSTANCES RECENTLY WHERE THESE WENT OFF TOPIC. AND I THINK IN BOTH CASES, UM, THERE, PEOPLE WERE LOOKING TO THE CITY ATTORNEY'S TABLE OVER THERE FOR HELP IN CUTTING IT OFF OR FOR SOME SORT OF GUIDANCE IN CUTTING IT OFF. SO, I MEAN, I THINK THIS IS, YOU KNOW, I JUST RAISED THAT. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S A LANGUAGE CHANGE HERE, BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THIS IS, WHAT IT'S LIMITED TO, AND WHO'S GOING TO HELP CONTROL THAT CONVERSATION. IS THAT SOLELY THE MAYOR? DOES THE COUNCIL GET TO SAY, HEY, YOU KNOW, NUDGE, NUDGE, MAYOR, WE THINK THIS IS OVER, YOU KNOW, STEPPING, DO WE WAIT FOR THE CITY ATTORNEY TO STEP UP AND SAY IT? I MEAN, I THINK WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS MORE. SO THAT'S THE MOTION TO FOLLOW THE AGENDA CAN BE RAISED AT ANY TIME BY ANY COUNSELOR. SO IF I'M MISSING IT, THEN ANYONE CAN SAY, CAN RAISE THAT. UM, BUT YES, I CAN ALSO, UH, FOLLOW THIS MORE CLOSELY. I, I WILL TELL YOU, I POLL, I POLLED OTHER CITIES. THEY DON'T EVEN DO THIS ON THE DAAS. THEY, THEY WRITE WRITTEN [05:00:01] REPORTS, YOU KNOW, PARAGRAPH OR TWO AND THEY SUBMIT 'EM AND IT GOES INTO THE PUBLIC RECORD AND THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT 'EM ON, ON THE COUNCIL. DIOCESE COUNCIL SEEMS TO REALLY APPRECIATE THE SUMMARY OF CURRENT EVENTS THOUGH ON UPCOMING ACTIVITIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT. I, I WANT TO KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT THE MAYOR HAS GONE TO, I WANT AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A REPORT ON THAT. I THINK THAT WAS PAST CRITICISMS, PRIOR ADMINISTRATIONS, YOU KNOW, OF THAT THE INFORMATION WAS NOT BEING SHARED WITH THE COUNCIL AND THE PUBLIC. SO I DON'T, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN REMOVING THIS. UM, I'M JUST INTERESTED IN MAKING SURE THAT IT DOESN'T OVERSTEP WELL. DO WE WANT TO, I DON'T THINK WE'RE VERY EFFECTIVE. AND I THINK IT'S VERY RANDOM AS TO WHO REPORTS AND WHO DOESN'T. WHEN EVERYBODY HAS COUNCIL ASSIGNMENTS MM-HMM . AND I DON'T WANNA INCREASE THE MM-HMM . LENGTH OF THE MEETING. BUT HOW DO WE DO THIS IN A WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, FORCES REPORTS, FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD, WE COULD PUT SOMETHING IN HERE ABOUT AN EXPECTATION THAT COUNSELORS WHO ARE ASSIGNED TO AS LIAISONS OR REPRESENTATIVES TO EXTERNAL ORGANIZATIONS ARE EXPECTED TO GIVE REPORTS. I NEED AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING THAT PREDATES MOST MEMBERS OF THIS COUNCIL. THERE WAS A COUNSELOR WHO WAS THE LIAISON TO NA NACOG. NACOG HAD A QUESTION, UM, THAT THAT COUNSELOR WAS GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE INPUT IN THE DISCUSSION. THAT COUNSELOR AT THAT TIME, WHO'S NO LONGER A COUNSELOR, UM, BROUGHT IT UP IN SUMMARY OF EVENTS, BUT WAS ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR DIRECTION MM-HMM . AT THAT POINT, IN ORDER TO GO BACK AND FACILITATE THE CONVERSATION. UM, HOW DO YOU HANDLE SOMETHING LIKE THAT? AND, AND HE, HE WASN'T, UH, CUT OFF AS INAPPROPRIATE. NO, HE'S NOT ACTUALLY WENT INTO A HOLD. THIS IS BEFORE YOUR TIME, KURT, I BELIEVE. I'M NOT SURE WHETHER IT WAS ACTUALLY KNOW , HOW LONG ARE YOU HERE NOW? IT IT SHOULD NOT. YEAH. THAT, UM, SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A DISCUSSION AMONG COUNCIL ABOUT DIRECTION BACK TO AN ORGANIZATION. IT'S PURELY BRIEF REPORTS. UM, I DON'T THINK IT NEEDS TO BE A REQUIREMENT, MAYOR. 'CAUSE YOU MAY NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO REPORT OR ANYTHING TO DISCUSS. EVEN IF YOU ARE A LIAISON, THERE MIGHT NOT BE BE ANYTHING TO, TO ADD. YEAH, I, I FAIRLY REGULARLY REPORT ON MY WATER BOARD ACTIVITIES. YOU DO. AND IF IT WAS A WRITTEN REQUIREMENT THAT WOULD, YOU WOULDN'T BE REPORTING ON THEM. I GOT IT. OKAY. YOU MIGHT NOT HEAR AS MUCH , BUT, AND THEN THERE ARE OCCASIONS, UH, WHERE QUESTIONS DO COME UP ON THE WATER BOARDS. AND I SAY THAT CAREFULLY, AND I WILL EMAIL. IT'S USUALLY ROXANNE AND THE CITY MANAGER ABOUT THERE THIS IS HAPPENING. IS THIS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE'RE ALREADY DOING OR IS IT SOMETHING DIFFERENT? AND USUALLY IT WORK? IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN, YEP. WE'RE ALREADY DOING THAT. OR WE'RE ALREADY, YEP. SO I MEAN THIS TOPIC I WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW, I WAS EXPECTING WE WOULD TALK ABOUT IN THE COUNCIL ASSIGNMENTS PIECE THAT'S COMING UP. OKAY. UM, BECAUSE, BUT I MEAN, THE OUTPUT FROM THAT IS WHAT IS GERMANE TO SUMMARY OF CURRENT EVENTS, I THINK. AND YOUR COMMENT ABOUT A PAST INSTANCE WITH NEEDING INPUT ON NACO IS QUITE TIMELY. SO, UH, 'CAUSE THAT HAPPENS AND, AND WE, BUT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT UNDER THE COUNCIL ASSIGNMENTS PIECE, UM, WHEN WE GET TO THAT. BUT IT FITS HERE TOO, JUST 'CAUSE IT'S PART OF THE AGENDA. IT'S, AND I ADD, IT REALLY SHOULD SAY THE SUMMARY OF CURRENT EVENTS AND COUNCIL ASSIGNMENTS. THAT'S WHAT THE, YOU KNOW, THE WRITTEN AGENDAS HAVE SAID FOR A WHILE AND THAT'S WHERE WE MM-HMM . DO THIS SECTION. SO, BUT WHAT IF SOMEBODY NEEDS SOMETHING IN A TIMELY MANNER? SO IT SAYS RIGHT IN THE RULE, IT SHOULD NOT BE USED TO STATE OF POSITION. DO OATH AN ISSUE. SUCH ITEMS SHALL BE AGENDAS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS. I I KNOW IT'S, IT SHOULD HAVE, THEY COULD HAVE ASKED ANNETTE AND WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN ON THE AGENDA PRETTY DARN QUICK WITHOUT THREE COUNSELOR, UM, APPOINTS THE CITY MANAGER OR THE CITY ATTORNEY CAN PUT AGENDA ITEMS ON. SO IF THERE'S SOME TIMELINESS ISSUE THERE AND IT CAN'T WAIT FOR TWO MORE WEEKS, UM, THAT'S THE PROCEDURE I THINK. SO WE CAN FOLLOW THE 24 HOUR RULE. UM, IF, IF, IF IT WAS YES, IF IT WAS THAT IMPORTANT AND IT WAS THAT TIMELY THERE, YOU NEEDED AN ANSWER IMMEDIATELY, YES. WE CAN IZE THINGS WITHIN, UH, UP TO 20, AT LEAST 24 HOURS AHEAD OF THE MEETING. SO, OKAY. OKAY. [05:05:01] NEXT COMMISSION COUNCIL JOINT MEETING AND WRITTEN REPORTS. AND THIS ONE, I, UH, MONIQUE SUGGESTED MOVING DOWN TO, UH, THE COUNCIL LIAISON SECTION. MM-HMM . IT DOESN'T NEED TO, WE DON'T DO THIS ANYMORE. IT'S NOT ON THE AGENDAS ANYMORE. WE DON'T, WE HAVE HAD MAYBE ONE OR TWO JOINT COUNCIL P AND Z MEETINGS SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE, BUT THERE'S NO WRITTEN REPORT AFTERWARDS. . YEAH. SO, WE'LL, WELL, AND I GUESS THAT BEGS THE QUESTION, DO WE EVEN WANT A SUMMARY OF THAT IN A WRITTEN REPORT? IF WE EVER HAVE ONE OF THOSE MEETINGS AGAIN, THERE'LL BE MINUTES AND IT'LL BE A PUBLIC MEETING IF WE DO. NO. OKAY. I I, I, I KNOW EVERYONE'S BEING REALLY SILENT, BUT, UM, I, I, I WOULD SAY WE DON'T REALLY NEED WRITTEN REPORTS AFTERWARDS. WE HAVE SO MUCH DOCUMENTATION NOW BETWEEN RECORDINGS AND THE MINUTES. WE REALLY DON'T NEED TO MAKE PETE WRITE ANY REPORTS. SO ARE YOU SUGGESTING WE REMOVE NUMBER FIVE? YEAH, THAT'S FINE. I, I EVERYONE AGREE? OKAY. MOVING RIGHT ALONG. YOU WANT FIVE MINUTE BREAK BEFORE WE GET TO Q? WELL, WE JUST CAME BACK. HASN'T EVEN. I KNOW WE HAVE TO. WOULD ANYBODY LIKE A BREAK? I DON'T CARE. BREAKS ARE ALWAYS GOOD. DOES KATHY WANT A BREAK? YEAH. THEN I'M IN FAVOR FOR A BREAK. DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING IN THIS NEXT SESSION? DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING IN THIS NEXT SESSION? NO, I JUST, I TO RUN OUTTA HERE A MINUTE AGO. YOU KNOW, SHE HAS NOTHING ON THIS NEXT SECTION. OH, OKAY. OKAY. SO TIME LIMITATIONS REGARDING PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. SO HERE'S THE SPEAKERS MAY BE GRANTED ADDITIONAL TIME BY THE MAYOR IS IN THERE BOTH IN THE PUBLIC FORUM AND THE AGENDA ITEMS. AND THEN, AND B, THE MAYOR MAY GRANT ADDITIONAL TIME TO SPEAKERS REPRESENTING TWO OR MORE PERSONS PRESENT AT THE MEETING WHO HAVE FILLED OUT SPEAKER CARDS. SO IF FIVE PEOPLE COME AND WANT TO, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, THE PROCEDURE, FIVE PEOPLE COME AND ALL FILL OUT CARDS, BUT THEY WANNA DESIGNATE ONE PERSON, THEN HE MAY THE, OR IN THIS, OR SHE MAY, I GUESS THE MAYOR, UM, MAY GRANT THEM UP TO 15 MINUTES. NOW HERE IT SAYS, COUNSELORS MAY ASK SPEAKERS QUESTIONS AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE PUBLIC INPUT PERIOD. YES. SO THERE'S THIS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PUBLIC FORUM UP ABOVE WHERE YOU CANNOT, UM, YOU'RE LIMITED TO RESPONDING TO CRITICISM, DIRECTING STAFF TO REVIEW IT OR PUT IT ON FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS. IF IT'S AN AGENDA ITEM, THEN YOU ARE FREE, UM, TO HAVE ALL THE DISCUSSION ON YOU WANT, INCLUDING, YOU COULD ASK SPEAKERS AN ADDITIONAL. SO QUESTIONS. AND WE DO, WE OFTEN, NOT OFTEN, ON OCCASION, COUNSEL WILL INVITE SOMEONE BACK UP YEAH. TO ASK CLARIFYING QUESTIONS. THE LAST MEETING THERE WAS A PUBLIC FORUM COMMENTARY AND PUBLIC FORUM OR AGENDA ITEM. I THINK IT WAS THE PUBLIC FORUM. BUT BECAUSE THE SPEAKER SPOKE AT EVERY ITEM, IT WAS HARD TO KNOW WHICH ONE IT WAS. AND COUNSELORS ACTUALLY RESPONDED, THAT WAS THE PUBLIC FORUM, AND THEY RESPONDED TO CRITICISM. AND THAT'S ALLOWED FOR BY STATE LAW AND OUR RULES OF PROCEDURE. SO IF YOU'RE DIRECTLY CRITICIZED, THAT'S THE ONE. OR WERE MISREPRESENTED YES, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO RESPOND. I'VE JUST YEAH. CAUTIONED THAT IT DOESN'T TURN INTO A DISCUSSION AMONG COUNCIL ABOUT IT. 'CAUSE IT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA. YOU'RE DIRECTLY RESPONDING TO THE CRITICISM. IT IT WASN'T CONVERSATION. IT WASN'T NO, I I DIDN'T HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH HOW THAT WENT DOWN. MAYOR, IS THIS A MATTER OF CLARIFICATION FOR YOU? OR IS THERE A UNDERLYING CONCERN ABOUT THOSE RESPONSES GIVEN, OR PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE WHO WERE LISTENING TO THE COMMENTS? I GOT FEEDBACK THAT THEY WERE CONCERNED. SO THERE WAS CRITICISM OF INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE, BUT THERE WAS ALSO A GENERAL COMMENTARY ABOUT BEING MURDERED THAT COUNSELORS WOULD BE MURDERED OR POTENTIALLY WOULD BE MURDERED IF THEY LIVED IN A DIFFERENT, THERE WERE PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE WHO THOUGHT THAT WAS A THREATENING COMMENT AND WERE CONCERNED ABOUT IT AND WE'RE CONCERNED THAT WE ALLOWED THAT COMMENT AND WE DIDN'T TAKE EXCEPTION TO IT. AND I KNOW THIS IS A GRAY AREA, AND SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, AT WHAT POINT, BECAUSE [05:10:01] IT BROUGHT IT UP TO ME MORE THAN ONE PERSON. SAME HERE. AND THEY WERE REALLY CONCERNED. AND I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO FEEL LIKE THEY CAN'T COME TO COUNCIL BECAUSE THEY THINK SOMEBODY IS GOING TO WIG OUT , YOU KNOW, AND CAUSE, UH, HARM TO THEM OR TO ANYBODY HERE. SO WHERE, WHERE'S THAT LINE? UM, YOU, YOU SAID IT MAY, I MEAN, IT'S A GRAY LINE. UM, AND IT'S WHETHER OR NOT IT'S A DIRECT THREAT. IF IT'S A, IF IT'S A, A REASONABLE THREAT, UH, THEN THAT COULD BE RISE TO CRIMINAL CONDUCT AND THE POLICE DEPARTMENT CAN, CAN REVIEW IT AS FAR AS THE RULES, THE RULES COVER, UM, THREATS LIKE THAT COULD ALSO END UP BECOMING DISORDERLY AND DISRUPTING THE MEETING. UM, GENERALLY THOUGH, PEOPLE ARE, AND THERE'S LOTS OF CASES ON IT IN PUBLIC FORUM, THEY'RE ALLOWED TO COME IN AND SAY ALL TYPES OF VIAL AND NASTY THINGS ABOUT THEIR COUNSELORS AND ELECTED OFFICIALS. AND THERE'S NOT MUCH OTHER THAN RESPONDING TO THE CRITICISM THAT COUNCIL CAN DO ABOUT THAT. MAYOR, MAY I MAKE A COMMENT? UM, AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOME TRAINING SPECIFICALLY TO THIS TOPIC TOMORROW AND WEDNESDAY WHERE WE CAN GO OVER THE INTERNAL SAFETY PROCESSES. UM, BUT ONE THOUGHT IS, YOU KNOW, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE COUNCIL MEETING, YOU CAN MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR EVERYBODY TO BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE WITHOUT ANY, UM, THREAT OR WHATEVER. JUST LAY OUT THE EXPECTATIONS FOR THE NORM OF THE BEHAVIOR YOU WANNA SEE IN THE MEETING. BUT IT DOES GET TRICKY BECAUSE WE CAN'T, YOU KNOW, SHUT DOWN PEOPLE'S FIRST AMENDMENT. RIGHT. AND I FEEL LIKE THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CASES ON THAT. IS THAT CORRECT? WHERE COUNCILS HAVE TRIED TO SHUT THINGS DOWN AND THEN IT, UM, THEY ALMOST, YEAH. UNIVERSALLY LOSE. YEAH. THE LEGISLATURE AND COURTS THINK THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT, OFFICIAL SCHOOL BOARDS AND CITY COUNCILS GET TO TAKE ALL TYPES OF ABUSE THAT THEY WOULD NEVER ALLOW IN A LEGISLATIVE BODY OR IN A COURTROOM. BUT THAT'S THE WAY. DOES THAT INCLUDE THREATS THOUGH? WHAT? DOES THAT INCLUDE THREATS? NO, NO. NOT REAL THREATS. REAL THREATS. I MEAN, SALES SORTS OF NASTY STUFF TO US. BUT YEAH, IF IT CROSSES INTO A THREAT, AND YOU KNOW WHAT, IT'S NOT SO MUCH US. I THINK WE ALL HAVE THICK SKIN. IT'S THE MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC WHO FEEL NOT UNSAFE BEING IN THE AUDIENCE. AND WE DO HAVE AND WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE AN OFFICER PRESENT AT THESE PUBLIC MEETINGS, UM, WHO ARE TRAINED TO IMMEDIATELY REACT IF SOMETHING LIKE AN ACTUAL THREAT APPEARS TO BEGIN TO BE ACTED UPON, WE'LL GO OVER ALL THAT TOMORROW ON WEDNESDAY. BUT A POLICE OFFICER IS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT FOR THE FULL LENGTH OF A MEETING. ANYBODY COULD GO OUT, COME BACK IN. YOU MEAN THE OFFICER COULD GO OUT AND COME BACK IN OR NO, A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC WHO, YOU KNOW, SAYS SOMETHING THREATENING, BUT THEY LEAVE. MM-HMM . POLICE LEAVE. THEY'RE NOT GONNA LEAVE. THEY'RE ASSIGNED. POLICE ARE NOT HERE THROUGH THE ENTIRE MEETING. THEY'RE NOT, THEY WILL NOT, THEY'RE TIME. THEY WILL, THEY WILL BE. OKAY. I'M ON A DIFFERENT TOPIC UNDER THIS. IF IT'S TIME IS WHAT WE'VE DONE WITH THIS TOPIC, UH, ON B, WHEN WE'RE CONSOLIDATING CARDS, WELL HAD THE IDEA IN THE PAST THAT THIS REALLY SHOULD BE A WIN-WIN HERE AND THAT WE'RE CONSOLIDATING CARDS. IT SHOULDN'T BE A ONE FOR ONE. I WOULD SAY A CONSOLIDATED CARDS GET AN EXTRA TWO MINUTES FOR EVERY CARD THAT'S SURRENDERED. IF THEY WANNA SPEAK INDIVIDUALLY, FINE, THEY GET THEIR THREE MINUTES, BUT THEY GET A MORE COHERENT PRESENTATION AND WE GET A LITTLE BIT SHORTER TIME, OUR MEETINGS. UH, AND SO I, I WOULD SI WOULD MAKE THAT SUGGESTION AS A PROCESS. I DO THINK THAT WE OUGHT TO PUT SOME, WHAT OUR PROCESS IS THOUGH IN THE RULES SO THAT WE'RE NOT PLAYING FAVORITISMS ON TOPICS OR PEOPLE MM-HMM . BECAUSE IT'S, RIGHT NOW IT'S JUST UP TO THE MAYOR. AND THE MAYOR COULD DO, NOT THAT YOU WOULD TREAT ANYONE DIFFERENTLY, BUT NONETHELESS, THE RULES DON'T SPEAK TO ANYTHING. SO I'M, I'M NOT SURE COUNCILOR FURMAN, HOW YOU'D SAVE TIME IF YOU GAVE HIM TWO MINUTES ADDITIONAL. SO EVERYONE GETS, IF I HAD FIVE PEOPLE AND I GET THREE MINUTES, THAT'S 15 MINUTES. BUT YOU'RE SAYING I GET ANOTHER 10 ON TOP OF THAT? NO, NO. THREE PLUS TWO PLUS TWO PLUS TWO PLUS TWO, RIGHT. OH, OKAY. YEP. EIGHT AND THREE BASICALLY. YEAH. AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S OF MY COUNSEL, IF THE COUNCIL COLLEAGUES AGREED WITH THAT IDEA. [05:15:01] THAT'S, I, YOU KNOW, IF IN TIMES PASSED, I THINK THAT'S, SINCE IT'S AT THE DISCRETION MAY IT HAS BEEN THAT WAY. SO IF YOU TURN IN FIVE CARS, YOU DON'T GET 15, HE SAYS, OKAY, I'LL GIVE YOU 10 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YEAH. RIGHT. THAT'S HOW IT'S HAPPENED IN THE PAST. BUT IF IT'S IN THE RULES, THEN IT'S APPLIED EQUALLY. EQUALLY, RIGHT? YEAH. WHICH IS WHAT WE WANT. JOANNE, YOU HAD RAISED YOUR HAND A WHILE BACK. DID YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO SAY? NO. OKAY. THANKS. THANK YOU. SO JUST STRETCHING YOU . NO, IT WAS MOOT BY THAT POINT. THANK YOU. DO WE NEED TO SPECIFY THAT THE CARDS HAVE TO BE TURNED IN IN PERSON SO SOMEBODY DOESN'T SHOW UP WITH A HUNDRED CARDS AND SAY YES. YES, YES. IT SAYS BY TWO OR MORE PERSONS PRESENT AT THE MEETING. CAN WE ASK THEIR ZIP CODE TOO? ? WE DO, WE DO ASK THEIR, UH, CITY OR COUNTY OF RESIDENCE. YEAH, BUT I'M THINKING A LOT OF PEOPLE IN 8, 6, 3, 5 1 THINK THEY LIVE IN SEDONA. IT'S HIGHLIGHTED, BUT WE CAN'T REQUIRE, I MEAN WE, WE DO GET RESIDENTS FROM CAMP VERDE AND COTTONWOOD COME SPEAK ON ISSUES. WE HAD ONE FROM FLAGSTAFF THAT FOUND OUT WHILE HE WAS HERE THAT THERE WERE 50, UH, LICENSE PLATE READERS IN HIS CITY. I REMEMBER THEM. MM-HMM . OKAY. UH, PLANNING AND, OH, PUBLIC DISRUPTION. ANYTHING THERE? JUST A QUICK QUESTION ON THAT SORT OF GOES BACK TO THE TOPIC THAT YOU WERE JUST REFERRING TO. UM, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DISRUPT AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SPEAK TO INCITE DISRUPTION. UM, HOW DO WE HANDLE THE INCITE PART? OR THEY APPEAR TO BE SPEAKING IN A WAY TO INCITE, UM, VIOLENCE OR DISRUPTION? DO WE CARE? I'M SORRY, I WAS FINISHING. THAT'S OKAY. THE TWO, THE TWO MINUTES UP HERE. I'M USED TO IT, KURT. IT'S FINE. THE M GRANT, TWO ADDITIONAL MINUTES PER SPEAKER CARD TO SPEAKERS REPRESENTING IS THAT I'M SMALL. EASILY OVERLOOKED. IT'S OKAY. MAY GRANT UP TO TWO MINUTES. NOT THAT IT HAS TO BE TWO MINUTES. OKAY. ALRIGHT. PUBLIC DISRUPTION. SO THAT'S REALLY GEARED TOWARD, IT'S, IT'S OUTLINED IN STATE LAW. WE HAVE IT IN OUR BOTTOM OF OUR RULES SOMEWHERE, UNLESS WE TOOK IT OUT MORE RECENTLY. UM, IT'S UNDER DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND IT HAS ARRIVED TO THE POINT WHERE THEY ACTUALLY DISRUPT THE MEETING. SO, UM, YELLING OUT ON OCCASIONS NOT GONNA BE DISRUPTIVE. CLAPPING IS NOT GONNA BE DISRUPTIVE. UM, IT'S GOING TO BE ACTUAL, LIKE YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T CONTINUE THE MEETING 'CAUSE YOU CAN'T HEAR EACH OTHER OR YOU CAN'T TAKE ACTION 'CAUSE IT'S OUT OF HAND. SO THAT'S THE, UH, DEFINITION OF PUBLIC DISRUPTION. . AND THEN, UM, COUNCILOR DUN, YOUR QUESTION, WELL, YOU, YOU ANSWERED IT BY SAYING IT HAS TO BE PHYSICAL DISRUPTION, WHETHER IT'S VIA NOISE OR IT'S BY A PHYSICAL ACTIVITY. IT JUST HAS TO BE THAT KIND INSTEAD OF NO, I THINK A, I MEAN A THREAT. THREAT. WOULD THAT INCITATION RIGHT. A THREAT WOULD, YEAH. ANY, ANY CRIMINAL CONDUCT. SO A THREAT WOULD COUNT TOO. UM, BUT YES, IT'D HAVE TO BE THROUGH THE, THROUGH THEIR WORDS OR ACTIONS. OF COURSE YOU DON'T KNOW. SOMETIMES WHEN SOMEBODY IS INCITING OTHER PEOPLE IT HAPPENS LATER. WATCHING. SEE, OKAY. PLANNING AND ZONING AND BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT APPEALS. OH, AND I MIGHT POINT OUT TO PEOPLE THAT WE'RE ON PAGE 17, SO HOPEFULLY WE'LL MOVE FASTER THROUGH THE YEAH. AND THE, THE LAST 15 PAGES OR SO OF THE DOCUMENT ARE THOSE YEAH, THE APPENDICES, WHICH WE CAN SUMMARIZE AS, UH, A LINK TRAVEL POLICIES AND PROCUREMENT POLICIES. WE'VE HAD A NUMBER OF APPEALS AND I, THE PROCESS SEEMS TO WORK FINE. THE PARTIES HAVEN'T COMPLAINED. THEY'RE FINE WITH THEIR 20 MINUTES. CAN I ANYBODY? YEAH, JUST UH, QUICKLY. SO THE CHANGE IN THE STATE LAW AROUND THE SPEED, I MEAN WE'RE GETTING ALL THIS RIGHT, I'M ASSUMING THROUGH THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE UPDATE. HOW DOES THAT APPLY LIKE TO P AND Z AND WHAT WE'RE STATING HERE ABOUT ADJUDICATION? SO, UM, THE WAY THAT'LL WORK AND THAT'S COMING TO COUNCIL ON NOVEMBER 12TH IS, UM, THE APPEAL OF A, THE PLANNING DIRECTOR DECISION [05:20:01] IS ALREADY LISTED IN THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE AND THAT GOES TO P AND Z AND THEN PEOPLE CAN APPEAL P AND Z DECISIONS TO CITY COUNCIL. SO THERE'LL STILL BE, UH, POTENTIAL FOR THOSE ITEMS TO COME BEFORE. OKAY. SO COUNCIL AS APPEALS, REALLY THE CHANGE IN THE STATE LAW HASN'T REALLY IMPACTED ANY OF THAT PROCESS, NOT THE APPELLATE PROCESS. IT DOES AFFECT THE INITIAL REVIEW PROCESS. OKAY. OKAY. SECTION R AGENDAS. AND SO WHAT I HAVE HIGHLIGHTED HERE IS THIS SEEMS, AND THIS WAS A COUNSELOR MENTIONED THIS, UM, I DON'T REMEMBER WHEN, UM, MIGHT HAVE BEEN COUNSELOR DUNN, UM, THAT THIS IS KIND OF A BACKDOOR. IT SAYS, UH, ALTERNATIVE OR THE ITEM IS IT'S TIME SENSITIVE NATURE OF THE COUNCIL. A SINGLE COUNSELOR MAY CONTACT THE CITY MANAGER WITH THE REQUEST. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S AN ISSUE WITH COUNCIL OR NOT. 'CAUSE IT GENERALLY REQUIRES THREE COUNSELORS. SO I, I KIND OF HAVE A ISSUE WITH THIS BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT GOT SOME PEOPLE IN TROUBLE TO START WITH AND IT'S A BACK DOOR THAT'S OPEN. SO, YOU KNOW, IF, IF UM, I DECIDE SOMETHING IS REALLY INTERESTING AND I SEND, YOU KNOW, EMAIL OR I MEET WITH A CITY MANAGER AND I SAY THIS SHOULD REALLY BE AN AGENDA ITEM BECAUSE I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, UM, OR IT'S TIME SENSITIVE OR WHATEVER. THERE'S NOT, THERE'S NOT THREE, WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THIS AS A FUTURE AGENDA ITEM. IT JUST FEELS LIKE IF IT'S REALLY OF A TIME SENSITIVE NATURE, THEN WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO HAVE AN EMERGENCY MEETING CALLED LIKE WITH THE UM, UH, THE AD UH, CAMPAIGN. UM, AND THAT WAS BROUGHT BY STAFF TO THE CITY MANAGER AND SAID, HEY, WE WE'RE TIME SENSITIVE. I JUST FEEL LIKE THERE REALLY SHOULDN'T BE ANYTHING THAT WE'RE DOING THAT'S SO TIME SENSITIVE. IT CAN'T WAIT FOR A COUNCIL MEETING OF WHICH WE HAVE TWO A WEEK WITH A FUTURE AGENDA ITEM ON IT WHERE WE CAN THEN ASK THE REST OF OUR CONSULT TO DISCUSS IT. KATHY? YEAH, NO, I, IIII THINK THAT IS GENERALLY RIGHT, BUT AGAIN, I DON'T WANNA THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER. I THINK THERE'S A BACK DOOR FOR A REASON THAT THERE IS SOME EXCEPTION. AND I THINK WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, STRONG CITY MANAGER AND WE HAVE TRADITIONALLY HAD STRONG CITY MANAGERS THAT CAN PUSH BACK AND SAY, I'M SORRY, IT JUST DOESN'T MEET THAT CRITERIA. YOU PLEASE BRING IT UP IN THE FUTURE AGENDA ITEM SECTION. BUT I DON'T WANNA CLOSE ANY POSSIBILITY. AND I BELIEVE IN THE CITY MANAGER'S JUDGMENT TO PUSH BACK ON THAT. AND I'M URGING THE CITY MANAGER TO PUSH BACK ON THIS WHEN APPROPRIATE. SHOULD WE JUST REMOVE THE, AS THE ALTERNATIVE PART? 'CAUSE IT'S NOT AN ALTERNATIVE, IT'S JUST IN AN EMERGENCY OR TIME SENSITIVE NATURE. YEAH. PUT THE WORD EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES OR EMERGENCY OR SOMETHING THAT FURTHER DEFINES TIME SENSE. YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE YOU FORGOT ABOUT IT, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU SEE, OOPS, I WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE SOMETHING DONE. THAT'S NOT TIME SENSITIVE ENOUGH . BUT IF YOU'RE IN A TWO ON TWO MEETING AT A COUNCIL WEEK AND IN YOUR DISCUSSION WITH THE CITY MANAGER, YOU DO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT, HEY, THIS WOULD BE GREAT TO GET MM-HMM . ON A FUTURE AGENDA AND THE CITY MANAGER HAPPENS TO AGREE WITH YOU, THEN YOU'RE COOL. THIS IS A, I'M SORRY. THEN THE CITY MANAGER SHOULD SAY, PLEASE BRING IT UP IN THE FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS IN OUR NEXT MEETING. SO THE REST OF COUNCIL HAS THE ABILITY TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION OR TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS YOU'RE ASKING INSTEAD OF YOU AND THE CITY MANAGER DECIDING IT'S THE GREAT THING TO DO. BUT THE CITY MANAGER ALWAYS HAS THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE AGENDA UNILATERALLY. SO, AND I ASSUME THE CITY MANAGER ON OCCASION GETS IDEAS FROM OTHER THAN HERSELF ON WHAT OUGHT TO BE ON THE AGENDA. SO YEAH, I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH THAT. I'M JUST SAYING THAT IF IT'S COMING FROM A COUNSELOR, WE HAVE A PROCESS BY WHICH WE TALK TOGETHER ABOUT PUTTING AN ITEM ONTO AN AGENDA. AND THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE JUST GOING TO THE CITY MANAGER AND HAVING A CONVERSATION. RIGHT. IT JUST, IT JUST FEELS LIKE THAT GOING AROUND COUNCIL, I GENERALLY AGREE AND GOING TO GOING TO THE CITY MANAGER DIRECTLY AND SAYING, HEY, YOU THINK THIS IS A GREAT IDEA. COULD YOU PUT IT ON THE AGENDA FOR ME? I LIKE SEEING YOU GET FIRED UP LIKE THIS. THIS IS GOOD. THIS IS, THIS IS MEANINGFUL PARTICIPATION. MAYOR PARTICIPATE. ACTUALLY YOU GAVE THE WRONG EXAMPLE BECAUSE THE NEXT DAY IS THE COUNCIL MEETING. , YOU JUST PUT IT ON FUTURE AGENDA . YEAH, I WAS GOING TO SAY COUNSELOR DUNN, THAT TYPICALLY THE CONVERSATIONS HAVE BEEN A HEADS UP TO ME THAT A COUNSELOR OR TWO ARE GOING TO BRING SOMETHING UP FOR THE UPCOMING MEETING SCHEDULE DISCUSSION WITH ALL OF YOU, JUST SO I'M AWARE, LIKE IT DOESN'T COME OUTTA LEFT FIELD. UM, ITEMS THAT [05:25:01] I WOULD JUST PUT ON ARE THE TYPICAL ROUTINE BUSINESS ITEMS, RIGHT? 'CAUSE YOU SEE A LOT OF THOSE SHOW UP ON YOUR AGENDA FOR CONTRACTS AND GRANT APPLICATIONS AND YOU KNOW, WHATEVER BUSINESS OF THE CITY THAT WE NEED YOU TO SIGN OFF ON TYPE OF THING. BUT ANYTHING POLICY RELATED, UM, OR CONTROVERSIAL REALLY SHOULD COME FROM YOU ALL WITH SOME DISCUSSION. MAYOR, I DO THINK THERE ARE EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES THOUGH. YEAH. YEAH, SURE. MM-HMM . MAYOR, I, I, I TOO, THANKS FOR BRINGING THE SUB COUNCILOR DOWN. I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS OR HIGHLIGHTED THIS IN MY CONCERNS AS WELL BECAUSE IT DOES IN SOME RESPECTS PUT PRESSURE ON THE, THE CITY MANAGER AND, AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH COUNCIL MEMBERS MIGHT BE DIFFERENT. AND, AND SO THERE COULD BE A DIFFERENT TREATMENT OF THESE REQUESTS THAT COME UP. AND SO I, I SUPPORT THIS REMOVING AS THE ALTERNATIVE. BUT IF THERE IS A TIME SENSITIVE NATURE, IF IT'S REALLY AN EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCE, THAT COULD BE SOMETHING THAT I, I WOULD BE WILLING TO HAVE A PROCESS OTHER THAN THE, THE NORMAL PROCESS. BUT IT'S A, IT'S A VERY GOOD POINT. AND, UM, IT DOES CIRCUMVENT THE NORMAL PROCESS, WHICH IS WHY IT SHOULD ONLY BE FOR SOME EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES THAT EXIST, IF AT ALL. I ACTUALLY DO CONCUR WITH THAT, BY THE WAY, BECAUSE I DO SAY TO ANNETTE, HEY, I'M GONNA RAISE THIS UP AS A FUTURE AGENDA ITEM AT COUNCIL. SO, SO I HEAR EXIGENT, EXIGENT A LOT. DO WE LIKE TIME SENSITIVE OR DO WE WANT EXIGENT? THEY KIND OF MEAN THE SAME THING. RIGHT. PRESSING . I THINK THE WORDING THAT YOU HAVE THERE FOR ME, WE LOOK FAN IS FINE WITH EXIGENT IN THERE PLAIN ENGLISH IF THE ITEMS OF A TIME SENSITIVE NATURE AND THEY CAN GO DIRECTLY EXTREMELY TIME SENSITIVE. IT JUST SAYS MAKE CONTACT WITH THE REQUEST. IT DOESN'T MEAN THE REQUEST IS GOING TO BE GRANTED. CORRECT. THAT'S RIGHT. RIGHT. BUT IT'S NO LONGER AN ALTERNATE METHOD. IT'S A, IF YOU HAVE A SOMETHING TIME PRINTS PRESSING. OKAY. OKAY. NEXT IS A HOT TOPIC. HOTTER THAN THAT. YEAH. RULE FOUR, MAYOR, VICE MAYOR DUTIES AND SUCCESSION. WHAT YOU GOT, KATHY? NO, I'M NOT READY YET. . UM, WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT KURT HAS AND THEN WE CAN COME BACK. YES, THAT'S FINE. TO WHAT YOU HAVE. THE, THE ONLY CHANGE I HAD WAS IN MAYOR'S SUCCESSION, JUST 'CAUSE IN THIS LAST GO ROUND, IT SEEMED AWKWARD TO IMMEDIATELY APPOINT OF A NEW INTERIM VICE MAYOR IF THE VICE MAYOR WAS NOT THE ONE BECOMING, UH, THE MAYOR. RIGHT. IT MADE IT SOUND LIKE WE HAD TO CHOOSE A NEW VICE MAYOR LETTING THE VICE MAYOR CONTINUE HER TERM IF YOU HAD NOT BECOME THE INTERIM MAYOR. SO THAT'S ALL THAT CHANGES. SAY THAT AGAIN. OKAY. SO THE WAY IT WAS WRITTEN IS, UM, AFTER MAKING AN INTERIM APPOINTMENT WITH THE MAYOR, SO IF ANYONE ELSE HAD BEEN APPOINTED MAYOR AT THE MEETING TWO WEEKS AGO, UH, THEN WE WOULD'VE HAD TO IMMEDIATELY SELECT ONE OF ITS MEMBERS AS INTERIM VICE MAYOR INSTEAD OF ALLOWING JUST THE VICE MAYOR TO CONTINUE IN THAT POSITION. SO THAT'S THE ONLY CHANGE I SUGGESTED THERE. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? SO YOU'RE, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT THE VICE MAYOR WOULD AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME THE ROLE OF THE MAYOR? NO. NO. OKAY. WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? SO, TWO WEEKS AGO WHEN THERE WAS THE, UH, MAY, UH, VACANCY IN THE MAYOR, UH, OFFICE OF THE MAYOR COUNCIL WAS REQUIRED TO APPOINT A INTERIM MAYOR IF, AND THEY, THEY CHOSE THE VICE MAYOR IN THIS SCENARIO. BUT IF THEY HAD CHOSEN ANYONE ELSE, ANY OTHER COUNSELOR TO BE THE MAYOR, THIS RULE THEN SAYS THAT IF THEN SAYS, AFTER MAKING AN INTERIM APPOINTMENT OF THE MAYOR, THE COUNCIL SHALL THEN IMMEDIATELY SELECT ONE OF ITS MEMBERS AS INTERIM VICE MAYOR. OH. AND WE ALREADY, WE ALREADY HAD A VICE MAYOR. I DON'T KNOW WHY WE WOULD NEED AN INTERIM VICE MAYOR AND WHY THAT WOULD NEED TO BE VOTED ON AGAIN AUTOMATICALLY. IT CERTAINLY CAN BE BECAUSE THE VICE MAYOR SERVES AT THE PLEASURE OF COUNCIL. SO AT ANY TIME, COUNCIL COULD DECIDE, OKAY, WE NEED A NEW VICE MAYOR. BUT GENERALLY YOU'RE, YOU'RE UP FOR THE, THE TWO YEARS WHILE REVIEWING, JUST NOT THAT WE WANNA GO THIS FAR WHILE REVIEWING THE, UH, SOME OTHER, UH, COUNCIL RULES OF PROCEDURE ONE INTERESTING, UH, CITY, I THINK IT WAS FOUNTAIN HILLS, THEY HAVE THE VICE MAYOR POSITION ROTATES EVERY EIGHT MONTHS. SO FOR, FOR OF AMONG THE THREE HIGHEST VOTE GATORS AT THE LAST ELECTION. SO YOU, AND SO YOU HAVE, EVERYONE GETS A CHANCE TO BE VICE MAYOR FOR THREE FOR EIGHT MONTHS. SO I THOUGHT THAT WAS ONE INTERESTING WAY OF, OF DOING THAT. CAN I PASS? AND THAT COVERS YOUR TWO YEARS. CAN YOU SAY PASS? YEAH. NO, YOU, YOU HAVE TO DO IT. PARTICIPATION TROPHY, LITTLE WRITTEN. [05:30:02] OKAY. SO I JUST WANNA BE CLEAR ON THIS AGAIN. SO IF, IF THEN VICE MAYOR PLU HAD NOT BEEN SELECTED AS THE MAYOR, THE INTERIM MAYOR AND COUNSELOR X HAD BEEN, THEN VICE MAYOR PLU WOULD'VE JUST CONTINUED AS VICE MAYOR WITH THIS CHANGE. SHE WOULD JUST HAVE CONTINUED AS VICE MAYOR THAT THE WAY IT WAS WRITTEN BEFORE IS COUNCIL HAD TO IMMEDIATELY SELECT ONE OF ITS MEMBERS AS INTERIM. BUT WITH THE, THE CHANGE, YOU'RE SAYING THAT VICE MAYOR WOULD THEN CONTINUE THAT? YES. OKAY. THAT'S WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN PRESERVING. YES. NOW, UM, I I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER WE WANNA CHANGE THE PROCESS OF HOW SOMEBODY BECOMES THE INTERIM MAYOR. UM, WE, VICE MAYOR IS ELECTED THEORETICALLY WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY SERVE IN THE ABSENCE OF A MAYOR. UM, I THINK WE SHOULD EXPLORE THAT IF, WHY GO THROUGH ALL THOSE MACHINATIONS AND SHOULDN'T THE VICE MAYOR JUST ELEVATE TO INTERIM VICE MAYOR AS OPPOSED TO HAVING TO DO ANOTHER APPOINTMENT FROM AMONG COUNCIL? SUPPOSEDLY WE SHOULD HAVE ALL HAVE HAD THAT IN MIND WHEN WE ELECTED A VICE MAYOR. IS THIS SOMEBODY THAT YOU WOULD WANNA SEE ACTING AS A MAYOR? SO THAT'S, I'M THROWING THAT ON THE FLOOR FOR, IF THAT WAS CLEAR. I'M THROWING IT ON THE FLOOR FOR DISCUSSION. BUT WHEN THE MAYOR RESIGNED, THE VICE MAYOR BECAME ACTING MAYOR. MM-HMM . WAS ACTING MAYOR. AND SO I I'M RIGHT. AND THEN I'M SAYING, AND THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE FINISHED A TERM INSTEAD OF GOING THROUGH THE MACHINATIONS OF ANOTHER, OF A APPOINTMENT FROM HERE. MM. OH, I'M COMFORTABLE WITH THE CURRENT PROCESS. UM, AND I'M NOT SAYING I'M JUST PUTTING IT OUT THERE FOR DISCUSSION BECAUSE IT WAS BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION FROM OTHER VERDE VALLEY COMMUNITIES THAT WE HAD A PROCESS THAT WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM HOW THEY'RE DOING IT. THE VICE MAYOR BECOMES THE MAYOR IN THE ABSENCE OF A MAYOR, AND THERE WAS NO OTHER APPOINTMENT PROCESS, WE WOULD'VE THEN JUST FILLED THE VICE MAYOR POSITION. MAY I SPEAK MAYOR? I THINK THE ONLY ISSUE WITH THAT IS IF, IF THE PERSON WHO'S ACTING AS INTERIM MAYOR DOESN'T HAVE THE CONFIDENCE OF COUNCIL, THEN THEY'VE BECOME MAYOR FOR END NUMBER OF MONTHS OR YEARS UNTIL ANOTHER ELECTION IS HELD. NOW THIS ONE'S REALLY CLOSE AS IT TURNS OUT, BUT IF IT HAD HAPPENED EARLY, AND, YOU KNOW, LET'S SAY THE VICE MAYOR AND I, I DON'T MEAN THIS IN ANY DISRESPECTFUL WAY, BUT IF THE VICE MAYOR DOESN'T HAVE THE CONFIDENCE OF COUNCIL, EITHER THEY HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO THEN ELEVATE THAT PERSON TO MAYOR AND THEY, THIS WAY, WE HAVE A WAY OF SAYING, HEY, WE DO HAVE CONFIDENCE IN YOU AS THE MAYOR, AND WE WANT YOU TO BE OUR MAYOR. SO IT JUST FEELS TO ME LIKE WE HAD A VOTE, WE HAD A VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE THAT LED US TO THIS POSITION. AND NOW WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE FOR THE PERSON WHO WE SELECT AS BEING MAYOR. PLUS, WE'RE THEN TELLING THE PUBLIC WE ALSO HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THIS INDIVIDUAL. SO TO ME, IT JUST, TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY IS, IS TO POTENTIALLY LESSEN THE CONFIDENCE THE PUBLIC HAS IN, IN THE COUNCIL MAY HAVE IN THE PERSON WHO, WHO JUST ACCIDENTALLY BECAME THE MAYOR AS OPPOSED TO INTENTIONALLY. AND I UNDERSTAND. I UNDER YEAH. I'M NOT SAYING I DISAGREE OR NOT, I'M JUST SAYING THAT I THINK THAT THOUGHT PROCESS ALSO NEEDS TO BE APPLIED WHEN WE ARE SELECTING A VICE MAYOR IN THE FIRST PLACE. ONE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MAYOR AND VICE MAYORS, THE VICE MAYOR DOES SERVE IT THE PLEASURE OF COUNCIL AND CAN BE REMOVED FROM THAT POSITION AS VICE MAYOR ANYTIME. AND JUST RETURN TO A COUNSELOR. ONCE YOU APPOINT SOMEONE AS A MAYOR, OR IF YOU TURN THIS INTO AN AUTOMATIC PROCESS, THEY BECOME THE MAYOR. THAT'S THE INTERIM MAYOR. THERE'S NOT A MECHANISM TO UN MAKE THEM THE INTERIM MAYOR. THEY'RE THE MAYOR UNTIL THE NEXT ELECTION. UM, AND ALSO IF IT'S NOT AUTOMATIC, THE VICE MAYOR MAY SAY, NAH, I'M NOT INTERESTED, I DON'T WANT IT. AND THEN WE PICK. SO I WOULD PROBABLY LEAVE IT THE WAY IT IS. WHAT IF YOU MADE IT AUTOMATIC, ELEVATING THE VICE MAYOR TO INTERIM MAYOR, BUT ADDED LANGUAGE THAT COUNCIL ACTUALLY COULD REPLACE THE INTERIM MAYOR IN THE EVENT THAT THEY WERE KIND OF A DUD AS VICE MAYOR, BUT THE COUNCIL HADN'T DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT. AND THEN THE MAYOR GOT HIT BY A BUS AND IT WAS TOO LATE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. I DON'T KNOW. WATCH OUT. HOLLY. I THINK HE'S PLANNING COUNCILORS, COUNCILOR DUNN'S STATEMENTS ABOUT IT'S A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE [05:35:01] SPEAKS TO ME QUITE A LOT. AND, AND I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. SO THERE'S AN ACTING MAYOR, BUT THEN THE VOTE FOR INTERIM MAYOR IS THE VOTE OF CONFIDENCE. AND YOU'VE ONLY GOT JUST GOTTEN RID OF A MAYOR, WHICH WAS AN , A TRAUMATIC EVENT. AND SO WE SHOULD REALLY ACTUALLY HAVE A, AN AFFIRMATIVE STATEMENT ABOUT WHO IS, YOU KNOW, TO YOUR POINT, IF THE, IF THE VICE MAYOR IS A DUD USING HER LANGUAGE, , IT'S MOST OF LOOKING AT THE VICE MAYOR . WELL, LOOKING AT EACH OTHER. . I'M JUST TRYING TO BE QUOTABLE. THAT'S ALL. . UH, THE LIKELIHOOD THAT THEY'RE GONNA BE REPLACED IS LOW BECAUSE, RIGHT. YEAH, EXACTLY. PEOPLE DON'T WANNA DO THAT. AND THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG. THEY'RE JUST NOT DOING A, YOU KNOW, A VERY GOOD JOB. AND I'VE SEEN THAT BEFORE. UH, THEN YOU DON'T WANT THAT PERSON TO BE THE MAYOR. MM-HMM . BUT YOU'RE OKAY IF THEY'RE STILL THE VICE MAYOR. MM-HMM . SO, IN A WAY IT'S, I DON'T KNOW, LET'S LEAVE IT AS IT IS. MM-HMM . DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THERE'S A LOT OF, OF, UH, INTEREST IN CHANGING IT, IS THERE? NO, NO. I, I AGREE WITH LEAVING IT AS IT IS. BUT THEN THAT ALSO BEGS THE QUESTION ABOUT THE PROCESS. 'CAUSE IT WAS NOT CLEAR. IT, THERE IS A VERY DETAILED PROCESS FOR ELECTING A VICE MAYOR IN TERMS OF MAKING, UM, UM, A MOTION AND, AND WHO GOES, BUT UNDER A MAYOR, NO OFFENSE, BUT A MORE IMPORTANT POSITION EVEN THAN THE VICE MAYOR. IT WAS JUST LIKE WHOEVER GETS NOMINATED FIRST, THERE'S A MOTION ON, UH, YOU KNOW, THEN, AND THAT GETS VETTED WITHOUT THERE BEING THE OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW IF THERE ARE OTHER, I MEAN, AND WE HAD A VERY SMOOTH PROCESS AND HATS OFF TO EVERYBODY FOR THAT. I THINK IT WAS, I THINK EVERYBODY INDIVIDUALLY THOUGHT THIS OUT, WHAT IT WAS GONNA LOOK LIKE. AND KUDOS TO A, A VERY THOUGHTFUL, UM, NON DEUS UP HERE. BUT THERE'S, THE PROCESS IS NOT PROTECTED IN THIS NON ORDER OF, OF, OF BUSINESS HERE. THE, WHEN I READ IT MM-HMM . I REALIZED THAT AS THE ACTING MAYOR, I COULD REALLY CONTROL THE OUTCOME. MM-HMM . WHICH WAS NOT, I THINK WHAT WE WANT BECAUSE THE PERSON, THE MAYOR, THE MAYOR'S, SO IF I HAD NOMINATED ANYBODY UP HERE, THE NOMINATION FROM THE MAYOR GETS VOTED ON FIRST. SO LET'S SAY THEY WERE TWO OR THREE NOMINATIONS, AND AS THE ACTING MAYOR, I NOMINATED SOMEONE, AND THEN YOU NOMINATED SOMEONE, AND THEN MELISSA NOMINATED SOMEONE, THE PERSON I NOMINATED WOULD BE UP FIRST AUTOMATICALLY. THAT'S WHAT OUR RULES SAY. AND THEN YOU HAVE TO VOTE THEM DOWN. I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT PROCESS. NO, I DON'T THINK IT'S THE RIGHT NO, NO, NO. I DON'T THINK YOU'RE SAYING IT RIGHT. YEAH, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WOULDN'T EVEN GET TO HAVE MULTIPLE NOMINATIONS IN THERE TO GO FIRST OR SECOND. A MOTION IS MADE. NO SECOND NAME GETS OFFERED BECAUSE IT'S BEING HANDLED LIKE A REGULAR MOTION. AND WE DON'T ALLOW SECOND MOTION ON THE TABLE WHEN THERE'S MOTION. NO, KURT TOLD ME. I NO, KURT TOLD ME WHEN I ASKED THIS QUESTION ABOUT NO, THAT WAS FOR THE, THE VICE MAYOR. RIGHT. THAT'S VICE VICE. WE DID THAT. SO, BUT THAT THE PROCESS, BECAUSE IT'S NOT DEFINED. RIGHT. THEN THAT'S THE MAYOR COULD CHOOSE IT. SO THE, THE, THE ACTING MAYOR, SO MAYOR, PLEASE CORRECT. THE ACTING MAYOR COULD SAID, OKAY, WE'RE GONNA FOLLOW THE PROCESS FOR VICE MAYOR. RIGHT. YOU WOULD GET TO, BUT THIS, I'M SAYING THIS NEEDS TO SPELL IT OUT. ABSOLUTELY. STATE THAT I I AGREE WITH YOU BECAUSE I'M JUST SAYING THAT THE FALLBACK WOULD BE THE VICE MAYOR'S PROCESS. 'CAUSE THERE WASN'T A PROCESS FOR THE MAYOR, AND IT COULD HAVE, BEFORE A MOTION WAS MADE, ASKED PEOPLE WHO'S INTERESTED. LIKE I DID ASK PEOPLE WHO'S INTERESTED. SO LET'S SAY THREE PEOPLE RAISED THEIR HAND, THEN I WOULD GET, AS THE ACTING MAYOR, THE OPPORTUNITY TO NOMINATE THE FIRST PERSON AND THEY WOULD BE THE ONE THAT WOULD BE VOTED ON. SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S RIGHT. THAT AT OF THE ORDER OF HOW THE VOTES WOULD GO. AND IT'S UP OR DOWN, RIGHT? CORRECT. IT'S NOT SUBSTITUTING SOMEBODY ELSE. SO IT'S NOT SAYING, HERE ARE THESE, THESE PEOPLE. WHO DO YOU VOTE FOR THE FIRST PERSON? YOU GET A MAJORITY VOTE. YEAH. WILL BE, WOULD. THAT'S HOW IT WORKS FOR THE VICE MAYOR. BECOME VICE MAYOR. AND I THINK ALL NOMINATIONS HAVE TO BE MADE IN THERE. I THINK THE SAME PROCESS NEEDS TO APPLY. THAT'S VICE MAYOR TO MAYOR. YOU WANT THE SAME THIS PROCESS UP HERE AND VICE MAYOR? THE YEAH. WHERE [05:40:01] EVERYONE GETS TO DESIGNATE, EVERYONE GETS TO TALK. AND THEN YOU TAKE YOU VOTES ON THE NO, IN THE ORDER THE NOMINATIONS ARE MADE. NO, BUT LOOK AT IT. IT'S STILL, YOU CAN STILL, IT'S STILL, IT'S STILL FLAWED. YEAH. WHAT I KNOW I DON'T WANT IS I WANT, I WANT SOMETHING THAT GIVES US A PROCESS, BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE THAT EMOTION IS MADE. NO OTHER NAMES CAN BE OUT THERE BECAUSE IT'S SHUT DOWN. WE DON'T, IN THE ABSENCE OF A PROCEDURE, THAT'S WHAT STANDS. NO, THAT'S CORRECT. YES. MM-HMM . THAT HAS TO BE CORRECTED. SECOND THING, WE HAVE THE MODEL OF THIS, BUT THE MODEL OF THIS IS ALSO FLAWED. OKAY. SO WE NEED TO FIX IT FOR BOTH NOW. UM, RIGHT. CHOICE TO GET ALL NAMES ONTO THE, INTO CONSIDERATION AS OPPOSED TO SOMETHING THAT LIMITS. SO COUNCILOR ELLI, THE ONLY THING I I HEAR FROM YOU THAT YOU DISLIKE ABOUT THE VICE MAYOR PROCESS MM-HMM . IS THAT THE, THEN, THEN VOTING FOR VICE MAYOR WILL TAKE PLACE IN THE ORDER NOMINATIONS WERE MADE TO, AND THE MAYOR ALWAYS GETS TO MAKE IT FIRST IF THEY CHOOSE TO MAYOR. SO THAT I DON'T THINK'S, SAY OR RECOGNIZE SOMEBODY WHO THEY HAVE AN INKLING HOW THEY MIGHT YEAH. YES. MOTION THEY MIGHT BE MAKING. AND YOU, WE CAN, IT COULD REALLY KEEP A CHALLENGER FROM COMING FORWARD, WHICH IS VERY UNDEMOCRATIC SMALLY. WELL, I, I MEAN I, THE, THE MAYOR IN THE VICE MAYOR PROCESS, THE MAYOR WILL SOLICIT SINGLE NOMINATION. AND, AND THE PREVIOUS COUNCIL LIKED THAT BECAUSE IT WAS, THE MAYOR WORKS MOST CLOSELY WITH THE VICE MAYOR, AND THEY WANTED IT TO BE SOMEONE THAT THE MAYOR WAS OKAY. WORKING WITH. UM, WELL, THAT'S ANOTHER ISSUE. I HAVE . SO THAT WAS THAT IF I RECALL RIGHT. THAT'S 'CAUSE THIS W WE WENT THROUGH THIS, I DON'T KNOW, FOUR YEARS AGO. UH, BUT YEAH, SO IT CAN BE LEFT TO WHERE IT'S JUST THE MAYOR CAN SOLICIT NOMINATIONS INSTEAD OF FROM THE MAYOR. IT CAN BE SOLICIT NOMINATIONS AND JUST LEAVE IT OPEN. AND THEN DOWN HERE IT CAN JUST SAY THE VOTING WILL TAKE PLACE IN THE ORDER. MOTIONS ARE MADE. IT'S ALMOST GOTTA BE LIKE BALLOTING. IF, IF THREE NAMES COME FORWARD, YOU KNOW, THAT EITHER GET NOMINATED OR SELF NOMINATED. HOWEVER IT IS, THERE ARE THREE INTERESTED PEOPLE IN THE POSITION OF MAYOR OR VICE MAYOR. ALL THREE NEED TO BE VOTED ON. YOU KNOW, AND THE, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THEORETICALLY AT THAT POINT, 'CAUSE IT'S A VACANCY, RIGHT? THERE ARE SIX PEOPLE VOTING. RIGHT. SO IT WOULD TAKE FOUR TO WIN. THERE'LL BE SEVEN IF IT WAS JUST THE REGULAR. IF IT WAS, YEAH. YEAH. RIGHT. AND I, AND I'VE SEEN THIS PLAY OUT. THIS IS, I'VE SEEN IT. AND SO YOU VOTE, THERE'S NO MAJORITY, BUT WHAT IF THERE IS, SO WHY DOES YOU HAVE TO HAVE VOTE ON EACH ONE? IF YOU'VE, IF YOU TAKE A VOTE ON A COUNSELOR AND THAT ONE PASSES THEN'S, THE MAJORITY MIGHT BE THE THIRD PERSON WHO IS NOMINATED. SURE. NOT THE FIRST PERSON. SURE. BUT THAT, THAT'S ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE RULES ALREADY. SO IF THE FIRST PERSON NOMINATED, OR THE FIRST PERSON YOU TAKE A VOTE ON DOESN'T GET A MAJORITY, THEN YOU GO TO THE NEXT. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SORT OF HAVING ONE VOTE AND SEEING HOW THE TALLIES COME UP. CORRECT. IF SOME PERSON GETS FOUR VOTES, GREAT. THEY WIN. IF NOT, GENERALLY WHAT I'VE SEEN HAPPEN BEFORE IS A REVOTE HAPPENS THEN. AND YOU KEEP DOING THAT UNTIL SOMEONE GETS FOUR VOTES. AND GENERALLY ONE OR TWO PEOPLE WILL EVENTUALLY DROP OUT. SO I DON'T, I DON'T WANNA, AND THEN YOU'LL GET A MAJORITY VOTE AT SOME POINT. I THINK THAT PROCESS IS ALREADY IN HERE. RANKED CHOICE VOTING. WELL, THAT'S A RANKED CHOICE. VOTING. SO THAT'S USED IN GENERALLY IN WHEN YOU HAVE MILLIONS OF VOTERS IN LARGE CITIES. BUT, BUT THEORETICALLY IT WORKS. SIX VOTERS. DOESN'T, THE NUMBER DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S ONE, YOU KNOW, 10 OR 1 MILLION. I DON'T KNOW IF IT, I GUESS IF EVERYONE RANKED IT THE SAME. WHAT'S THAT? SO I'VE, I'VE, IN THE FIVE YEARS, IT'S, IT'S ALWAYS JUST PASSED ON THE FIRST VOTE. I'M PRETTY SURE. SO WHAT HAPPENS IF EVERYBODY VOTES FOR THEMSELF? BECAUSE NORMALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT EVERYONE KNOWS WHO THE MAYOR WANTS TO BE, THE VICE MAYOR. IT'S NOT REALLY A TRUE DEMOCRATIC WITH THIS SMALL D PROCESS. RIGHT. IT'S LIKE WHOEVER THE MAYOR WANTS GETS. AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE COUNCIL OR THE OF THE CITIZENS. OR THE CITIZENS. RIGHT? YEAH. RANK CHOICE VOTING I THINK IS AN INTRIGUING IDEA. ONCE YOU GET THE NOMINATIONS OUT, YOU DO A RANK CHOICE VOTE. MM-HMM . SO I'M NOT SURE YOU CAN DO THIS NOW, BUT CAN YOU WORK ON, SO I'M GONNA AT LEAST STRIKE THE TWO MOST OFFEND ONES. THE VOTING FOR THE VICE MAYOR WILL THEN TAKE PLACE. SO I'LL JUST STRIKE. SO, AND THEN, ALL RIGHT, WELL I'VE HEARD TWO THAT WANT US CONSIDER TWO RANK CHOICE TYPE VOTING FOR THIS, TALKING ABOUT THAT. THAT'S [05:45:01] THREE. SO THERE'S THREE. I'M GOOD WITH RANK CHOICE COUNCIL. ALRIGHT. THERE'S FOUR. ALL RIGHT. I'LL LOOK AT SOME RANK CHOICE. I WROTE DOWN DRINKING CONTEST, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S AN OPTION. OPTION. , WHAT'D YOU SAY? I WROTE DOWN DRINKING CONTEST, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S AN OPTION. . ALRIGHT. SOME RANK CHOICE PROCESS, WHICH WOULD APPLY HERE AS WELL. PROCESS. AND YOU ANY REASON TO HAVE IT DIFFERENT FROM THE VICE MAYOR? MAYOR, YOU WANT, YOU'D LIKE 'EM TO BE THE SAME. I WOULD LIKE THE SAME PROCESS IN BOTH INSTANCES. YEAH. VICE MAYOR, UH, I MEAN IT SIMPLIFIES IT FOR PROCEDURE. WE'LL FIGURE IT OUT AND BE ABLE TO DO IT QUICKLY AND GET IT DOWN. OKAY. OKAY. UH, WE CAN MOVE ON TO CREATION OF COMMITTEES, BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS. OR DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE? OH, MAYOR LANGUAGE. NO, WE WENT THROUGH THAT. NO, WE WENT THROUGH THAT. OKAY. WHILE YOU WERE, AND I JUST ADDED IN RANK CHOICE PROCESS. SAME AS VICE MAYOR. SO I'LL SEE WHAT I CAN FIND FOR THAT OR COME UP WITH. UM, I THOUGHT IT WAS WEIRD THAT WE HAD COUNSELOR APPOINTMENT 15 PAGES EARLIER IN RULE TWO AND IT KIND OF FITS THERE 'CAUSE IT'S COUNCIL. UM, BUT IT SEEMS TO FIT BETTER HERE UNDER SUCCESSIONS. YOU KNOW, IF WE PUT MAYOR SUCCESSIONS, VICE MAYOR, AND ALSO COUNSELOR SUCCESSION. SO IT JUST SEEMS, BECAUSE I KEPT SCROLLING BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN, OKAY, WHAT HAPPENS IF THE MAYOR RESIGNS? AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS IF A COUNSELOR AND THEY'RE 15 PAGES APART. SO I WOULD MOVE THAT ONE FROM RULE TWO, UM, AND DOWN HERE TO A D IF THAT'S OKAY. SO THAT WAY THEY'RE ALL IN THE SAME SPOT. ANYTIME WE NEED TO FILL A VACANCY, WE KNOW RIGHT. WHERE TO FLIP TO. OKAY. FLIP TO RULE FOUR. ALL RIGHT. RULE FIVE, I KNOW YOU HAVE ISSUES ON THIS ONE. KATHY , UM, SOMEBODY ELSE WANNA GO FIRST WHILE I REACQUAINT MYSELF? ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING WE'VE MOVED ON TO RULE FIVE? YES. OKAY. I MEAN, PART A NO MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL, INCLUDING THE MAYOR, SHALL BE ALLOWED TO INDEPENDENTLY FORM AN OFFICIAL CITY COMMITTEE, SUBCOMMITTEE, TASK FORCE, OR OTHER BODY, HOWEVER, DESIGNATED WITHOUT APPROVAL OF COUNCIL. I THINK WE VIOLATED THAT IN THE PAST. HOW, LIKE THE OHV COMMITTEE WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE THAT WAS NEVER OFFICIALLY POINT DESIGNATED BY A COUNCIL. IT, IT WAS DISCUSSED BY COUNCIL MULTIPLE TIMES. YES. IT REPORTED BACK TO COUNCIL. MM-HMM . YES. SO I DON'T KNOW. THAT RULE IS VIOLATED. IF YOU WANNA HAVE IT TO BE, YOU GOTTA HAVE A MAJORITY OF COUNCIL APPROVE IT. UM, WE CAN CERTAINLY TAKE A VOTE ON THAT. BUT THE, THE GOAL ALSO OF THAT WAS IF IT'S, I GUESS IT WASN'T NECESSARILY, MAYBE THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE TOO. IT WASN'T NECESSARILY AN OFFICIAL COUNCIL COMMITTEE OR ANYTHING. IT WAS AN UNOFFICIAL RIGHT. FOR RULES. OPEN, OPEN MEETING LAW ISSUES. BUT, YOU KNOW, UNDER THE FORMER FORMER MAYOR UNDER SANDY MORIARTY, THERE WAS A COMMITTEE FORMED TO LOOK AT THE CONTRACT WITH THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. THAT WAS DONE BY COUNCIL APPROVAL. RIGHT. SHE ASKED WHO WOULD LIKE TO SERVE ON THIS COMMITTEE? PEOPLE RAISED THEIR HANDS, SHE MADE APPOINTMENTS. THEN THAT COMMITTEE WAS SANCTIONED BY THE COUNCIL. RIGHT. THEN THAT COMMITTEE WROTE A REPORT AND RECOMMENDATIONS AND BROUGHT IT BACK TO COUNCIL FOR ACTION. MM-HMM . THAT TO ME IS THE PROPER WAY TO DO IT. I AGREE. DID, DO YOU RECALL IF WE TOOK A COUNCIL TOOK, I KNOW COUNCIL SANCTIONED THAT. I REMEMBER THAT AS WELL. BUT DID COUNCIL TAKE A VOTE ON IT? YES. AND IT WAS A, OKAY. YEAH. WELL THEN LET'S JUST PUT IN, INSTEAD OF PRIOR APPROVAL OF CITY COUNCIL BY A MAJORITY VOTE OF THE COUNCIL, WELL STILL, YOU DON'T WANT TO THE MEMBER OR THE MAYOR TO INDEPENDENTLY FORM THIS IS ONLY CITY COUNCIL CAN FORM MM-HMM . THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT. OKAY. SO THEN WE LEAVE THAT ONE. MAY I ASK A CLARIFYING QUESTION HERE? UM, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE US TO, UM, CHECK IN WITH YOU ON THINGS THAT ARE RELATED TO THE LEGISLATURE? SO WE MAY GET REQUESTS THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THE COALITION CONCEPT FOR LOBBYING ON THE SHORT TERM RENTAL CONCEPT AND OUR CITY WAS KIND OF THE LEAD AND TRYING TO GATHER TOGETHER, UM, OTHER CITIES AND DIALOGUE AND [05:50:01] SUPPORT. WOULD YOU, WOULD THAT FALL UNDER HERE? SO IF THERE'S ANYTHING LEGISLATIVE RELATED, UM, DO YOU WANT US TO COME BACK AND, OR WORK WITH WHATEVER THE MAYOR OR THE VICE MAYOR TO COME BACK TO, TO SANCTION THE, I ASSUME IT WOULD COME UP DURING THE CONVERSATIONS ON LEGISLATIVE PRIORITIES IN THE DIRECTION THAT GET FROM COUNCIL AND WHAT TOPICS TO WORK ON. BUT I GUESS I JUST WANNA BE CLEAR ON THE EXTENT THAT, UM, A MAYOR, VICE S MAYOR, ET CETERA, CAN, UM, I THINK THAT THE WORK ON THINGS ON BEHALF OF THE CITY AND SORT OF A COALITION KIND OF ENVIRONMENT, THE LEGISLATURE MOVES QUICKLY. YEAH. WHEN THEY'RE NOT DURING THE WHOLE TIME THEY'RE IN SESSION, BUT DURING CERTAIN PERIODS. AND YOU, AND CAN'T WAIT FOR TWO WEEKS FOR COUNCIL, DEPENDING ON WHEN IT IS, IT MIGHT BE TWO WEEKS LATER. SO I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING, BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE LAST YEAR WE EVER KNEW ANYTHING THAT WAS GOING ON. IT WAS NEVER BROUGHT TO COUNSEL. WE DIDN'T KNOW IF HEARINGS WERE SCHEDULED, NOT SCHEDULED, WHO WAS MEETING WITH WHO. AND SOME OF THIS IS SENSITIVE AND SOME OF IT, YOU KNOW, IS STRATEGY AND ALL OF THAT. BUT WE NEVER GOT ANYTHING. I MEAN, KURT REPORTED ON THE STATUS OF WHERE BILLS WERE, BUT NOT WELL BILLS THAT WE HAD ALREADY TAKEN POSITION ON. RIGHT. BUT LIKE THE ZONING BILL, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, THAT IS NOW TAKEN STRIPPED THE, UH, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION AND COUNCIL AND THE PUBLIC OF, OF HAVING A VOICE. UM, UM, AND ANY AUTHORITY, WE DIDN'T EVEN REALLY KNOW. I DIDN'T REALLY FULLY UNDERSTAND, KNOW THAT WAS COMING BECAUSE I GUESS ON, I DIDN'T MEAN TO BRING UP A, GOING OFF ON A TANGENT ABOUT HOW WE HANDLE LEGISLATIVE ACTIONS. I WAS JUST, BUT THAT IS AN ISSUE. BUT I DON'T KNOW. THE ONES IN THIS SECTION, IT GOES IN THIS RULE. I WAS JUST ASKING ABOUT, UM, IF THE, ANY MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL'S ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN TASK FORCES, SUBCOMMITTEES, WHATEVER ABOUT, UM, LEGISLATIVE OR LEAGUE OF CITIES WORK OR WHATEVER, DO I NEED TO BE PAYING ATTENTION TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT COMES BEFORE THE COUNCIL? OR IS THAT, I'M, I'M JUST LOOKING FOR A LITTLE CLARIFYING INFORMATION BECAUSE I THINK THAT WAS A ISSUE LAST YEAR. ANY, ANY COUNCIL CREATED COMMITTEE, BOARDS COMMISSION TASK FORCE IS GONNA BE SUBJECT TO OPEN MEETING LAW. SO COUNCIL'S DESIGNATED, I THINK THAT ROLE TO THE, TO THE CITY'S LOBBYISTS AND THE DESIGNATED PUBLIC LOBBYISTS, THEY'RE THE ONES WHO HAVE TO TAKE SOME TIMES ACTION AND POSITIONS KIND OF QUICK AND THEN REPORT ON IT LATER. OKAY. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE CAN, SO IT'S NOT ANYTHING UNDER THIS SECTION? I DON'T THINK SO. OR WE WANNA OKAY. MY, UNDER MY UNDERSTANDING, AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, WAS THAT OUR LOBBYIST CONTACT THE MAYOR DIRECTLY, WERE YOU PART OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS? NOT EVERY TIME, BUT GENERALLY IT WASN'T JUST, IT WAS OFTEN THE VICE MAYOR, UM, THE MAYOR, ME AND OFTEN CITY MANAGER MANAGER. NO, THE VICE MAYOR WAS NOT INCLUDED IN THE MAJORITY OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS. YOU, HER BELIEF . WELL, I CAN TELL YOU HOW MANY I WAS INCLUDED IN AND HOW MANY I THINK OCCURRED. VERY FEW. WE HAD A MEETING EVERY OTHER WEEK, A ZOOM MEETING, THE, FOR OUR LOBBYISTS. I REMEMBER THE IMPRESSION FROM THE WORDS O OUT OF THE LOBBYIST MOUTH, THAT THE MAYOR AND THE LOBBYISTS WERE ON THE PHONE EVERY DAY. MULTIPLE TIMES PER DAY. OKAY. AND THAT IS, TO ME, A OUTRIGHT VIOLATION. AND NO INFORMATION WAS FLOWING TO THIS COUNCIL ABOUT WHAT STRATEGY WOULD BE EMPLOYED, WHAT INFORMATION WAS OUT THERE, WHAT WOULD BE PUBLICLY. I MEAN, TO ME THAT WAS AN ABSOLUTE DIRECT VIOLATION. AND THAT'S WHY I ASKED IF YOU WERE INCLUDED. NO, I WAS NOT ON DAILY PHONE CALLS BY ANY MEANS. I DIDN'T THINK SO. , GO AHEAD. SO I'VE GOT A QUESTION. WHY, IF, IF A COMMITTEE GETS FORMED OF THREE MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL, WHY WOULD THAT BE SUBJECT TO OPEN MEETINGS? LAW? IT'S NOT A QUORUM. JUST PER STATE LAW. REALLY. YEAH. BUT ANY, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ONLY PUT ONE IF YOU, IF COUNCIL FORMS A SUBCOMMITTEE AND, AND ONLY APPOINTS ONE OF ITS MEMBERS ONTO IT, IT'S A PUBLIC BODY THAT'S SUBJECT TO THE OPEN MEETING LAW. AND SO, SO WE GENERALLY HAVE THE CITY MANAGER THAT BRINGS US TO THE, SORRY, COUNCILORS. YEAH. I'M SORRY. SO IN, IN THAT REGARD, KURT, THEN JUST EVEN US HAVING A MEETING NEEDS TO BE PUBLICLY NOTICED. I MEAN, EVERYTHING ABOUT OPEN MEETINGS, LAW APPLIES, EVEN IF IT'S A COMMITTEE WITH [05:55:01] JUST THREE COUNCIL MEMBERS ON IT. IF YOU, IF COUNCIL ESTABLISHES THAT COMMITTEE YES. AND IF IT DIDN'T OFFICIALLY SANCTION IT ACCORDING TO, IF COUNCIL DOESN'T ESTABLISH IT, IF IT'S NOT A, A COMMISSION SUBCOMMITTEE OR WHATEVER, THE COUNCIL THEN, SO THAT'S WHY OFTEN, UM, THE CITY MANAGER TAKES A LEAD AND HAVE CITY MANAGER TASK FORCE AND STAFF HAVE DIFFERENT COMMISSIONS, UH, OR WORK WORK GROUPS THAT THEY ESTABLISH THAT ARE NOT OPEN SUBJECT TO OPEN MEETING LAW. BUT IF COUNCIL TAKES DIRECTION AND ESTABLISHES ANY TYPE OF SUBCOMMITTEE, BOARD, COMMISSION, AND THEN IT'S, UH, SO FOR EXAMPLE, ON HERE, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO. SO P AND Z COMMISSION, HPC COMMISSION, THOSE WERE ALL ESTABLISHED BY COUNCIL. THOSE ARE PUBLIC BODIES. THEY INDEPENDENTLY AREN'T PUBLIC BODIES. THEY'RE PUBLIC BODIES BECAUSE COUNCIL ESTABLISHED THEM. BUT FOR THAT ACTION, THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO, YOU KNOW, THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TO OPEN MEETING LAW. AND SO IF WE WANT TO RAISE OUR LEVEL OF PLAY, SO TO SPEAK, AROUND LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY, AND WE FORM A COMMITTEE NOW, EVEN THOUGH STRATEGY DISCUSSIONS INCLUDED IN THAT HAVE TO BE MADE PUBLIC UNLESS A NET ESTABLISHES IT. RIGHT. SO THERE'S, UM, IS WHAT HE'S SAYING. WELL, SO YEAH. AND THEN YOU'RE GIVING IT UP, YOU'RE NO LONGER DIRECTING IT. RIGHT. UM, AND THAT'S WHERE IT LIES CURRENTLY IS WITH STAFF, UM, AND THE CITY'S LOBBYISTS. UM, THEY HAVE TO MAKE THE, A LOT OF THOSE DECISIONS INSTEAD OF COMING BACK TO COUNCIL TO MAKE EVERY SINGLE DECISION. UM, KURT, ARE WE OFF AGENDA TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS SPECIFICALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF, UM, LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY? 'CAUSE I MEAN, THAT'S A BIG DEAL. MM-HMM . AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. AND I DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN ACTUALLY, SO LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY THAT, IF YOU WANNA GO MORE INTO DETAIL ON THAT, THAT'S GENIS FOR WEDNESDAY'S MEETING. UH, BUT IT IS RELATED TO, YOU KNOW, COMMITTEE BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS RIGHT NOW, IF YOU WERE LOOKING AT CHANGING THE RULES ABOUT HOW THAT HAPPENS. SO, SO, SO HOW'S THIS ACTIONABLE TO US? HOW DO WE FEEL ABOUT THIS? 'CAUSE IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THIS IS NOT WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING. I LIKE, LIKE YOU ALL MAY HAVE HAD THAT SANCTIONED CHAMBER GROUP, BUT THEN PHASE TWO OF THAT I CAME ON BOARD. I WORKED WITH THE TWO OF YOU. I DON'T THINK THAT WAS SANCTIONED IN THE SAME WAY THAT THAT WAS UNOFFICIAL. YOU WERE SET OUT FOR A, UH, COUNSELOR WHO WAS LEAVING. AND I DON'T REMEMBER HOW, I BELIEVE WE TALKED ABOUT THAT AT A COUNCIL MEETING YOU DID. AND THAT PERSON LEFT. THERE WAS AN OPENING AND YOU SAID, AND YOU WERE THERE. SO I BELIEVE THAT THAT FOLLOWED THE CORRECT PROCESS. OKAY. HOWEVER, THOSE MEETINGS WERE NOT RECORDED. NO. SO YOU ONLY NEED MINUTES. YOU DON'T HAVE TO RECORD 'EM, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BROADCAST THEM. YOU HAVE TO GIVE AN AGENDA. YOU HAVE TO POST IT. IT HAS TO BE AVAILABLE FOR THE PUBLIC TO COME IN AND WATCH. SO WE DID PUBLISH THOSE. THEY WERE IN THE VOLTE, RIGHT? THEY MM-HMM . THEY WERE ALL PUBLISHED AND THEY WERE NOTICED. AND I DON'T THINK ANYONE EVER CAME IN TO WATCH 'EM. BUT YEAH, WE WEREN'T, WE WEREN'T, UM, YEAH. RECORDING THEM AND BROADCASTING 'EM. THAT'S NOT A REQUIREMENT OF OPENING LAW. OKAY. CAN I, BUT I REMEMBER 'CAUSE THE CHAMBER HAD AN ISSUE AND DIDN'T WANT IT, THAT WE WERE LIKE, TOUGH. THAT'S WHAT IT IS. THEY'RE ALL GETTING NOTICED AND THEN NOBODY SHOWED UP ANYWAY. YEAH. CAN I MAKE A SUGGESTION? COULD WE, UM, MAYBE COME UP WITH SOME, A NEW SECTION TO BRING BACK TO YOU THAT DESCRIBES THE ROLE OF COUNCIL IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS? SURE. AND WE COULD PUT SOME FRAMEWORK TO IT, UM, THAT DESCRIBES HOPEFULLY WHAT YOUR EXPECTATION IS OF HOW COUNSELORS PARTICIPATE AT THE FEDERAL OR STATE LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY. OKAY. SO I'M NOT, DOES IT SAY LATER IN HERE ANY? I DON'T THINK SO, NO. SO LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY'S A NEWER THING IN THE LAST THREE, FOUR YEARS. YEAH. SO IF THAT'S BEEN A POINT OF CONFUSION, THEN WE SHOULD PUT SOMETHING IN THERE AND IT'LL GO IN THE RULES. RIGHT. AND WE DON'T HAVE TO WRITE IT RIGHT THIS SECOND ON THE FLY, BUT WE COULD COME BACK WITH SOMETHING FOR YOU. YEAH. I DON'T WANNA WRITE IT ON THE FLY, BUT IT'S, IT'S CONCERNING THAT COUNCIL HAS NO IDEA WHAT'S BEING SAID ON BEHALF OF THE CITY. MM-HMM . THAT'S RIGHT. SO THAT'D BE A NEW RULE EIGHT. WELL, I DON'T SEE IT FITS IN ANYWHERE ELSE NECESSARILY. OKAY. SO WHAT DO, DO YOU, ARE YOU READY? B TWO. B TWO. B TWO. OKAY. OKAY. MAYOR, MAYOR DESIGNEE FROM CITY COUNCIL AND THE CHAIR, OR VICE CHAIR OF THE CHAIR IS APPLYING FOR YOUR APPOINTMENT FOR THE REVIEWING BODY WILL INTERVIEW APPLICANTS FOR COMMISSION SEATS AND FORWARD RECOMMENDATION FOR APPOINTMENT TO COUNCIL. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THE MAYOR. THE MAYOR HAS ALWAYS DESIGNATED [06:00:01] THE VICE MAYOR AND THE CHAIR AND DO AN INTERVIEW WITH PEOPLE LOOKING FOR THE HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION. PEOPLE LOOKING FOR PLANNING OF ZONING COMMISSION. UH, YOU KNOW, AND IT'S BEEN A RUBBER STAMP THAT, THAT IS THE BODY. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN MAYOR, VICE MAYOR. UM, AND IT COMES FORWARD. AND THERE IS NO OPPORTUNITY OTHER THAN THE VERY LIMITED INFORMATION THAT ONE HAS IN THE PACKET FROM THE APPLICATION TO UNDERSTAND WHO THESE APPLICANTS ARE. AND AN APPOINTMENT IS MADE BASED ON THE SAME TWO PEOPLE'S OPINION ALL THE TIME. I, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS PROCESS CHANGED TO BE OPENED UP. I DON'T KNOW THAT SHOULD NECESSARILY BE THE MAYOR AND VICE MAYOR. I DON'T, I THINK THAT DEPENDING, SOME PEOPLE MAY HAVE MORE OF A UNDERSTANDING EXPERIENCE BACKGROUND WITH THE HISTORIC PRESERVATION. OTHERS MAY WITH ZONING. WHY CAN'T WE, FROM THE DEUS APPOINT THE PEOPLE THAT WILL BE INTERVIEWING ON OUR BEHALF FOR THE OPEN POSITIONS ON COMMISSIONS. WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE APPLICANTS COME AND TALK TO ALL OF US? RIGHT. THAT WOULD BE BETTER. YEAH. SO THERE'S, IT'S, IT'S THE COUNCIL'S APPOINTMENT. IT IS CORRECT. AND I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO COUNCIL, THEY FEEL LIKE THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE BUT TO REALLY VOTE FOR 'EM BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T REALLY HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO SAY NO. AND THAT WOULD FLY IN THE FACE OF THE MAYOR, VICE MAYOR AND THE CHAIR. SO YOU'RE, UM, SO YEAH, THE WAY SOME OTHER CITIES DO IT IS THEY HAVE A, A SELECTION COMMITTEE. SO YOU CAN, AND YOU CAN CHANGE THAT. AND SO THAT ISN'T, YOU KNOW, BECOMES A PUBLIC BODY IF COUNCIL APPOINTS A SELECTION COMMITTEE. SO IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE DONE BY ALL OF COUNCIL, OR COUNCIL CAN JUST DO THE SELECTION ITSELF. IT ONLY HAS THREE BOARDS, UM, HPC AND P AND Z AND THE TOURISM ADVISORY TAB. AND THERE'S NOT, LIKE, THERE'S SO MANY APPLICANTS THAT'S GONNA BOG US DOWN TO THEM. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME WE CHANGED A MEMBER ON THAT ONE? HEY, I'VE CHANGED MY SEED IN THAT FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS. A FEW TIMES. , I MEAN, COUNCILOR KINSELLA, YOU USED THE EXACT WORD I'VE USED, UH, HYPHENATED WORD THAT I'VE USED TO KIND OF COMPLAIN OR CRITIQUE THIS IN THE PAST. THAT IT'S A RUBBER STAMP WHEN IT COMES BACK TO COUNCIL. SO, SO YOUR POINTS WELL TAKEN, RIGHT? IT CAN'T BE ANYTHING ELSE 'CAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ANY OPPORTUNITY TO MEET THE PEOPLE OR INTERVIEW THEM, OR, AND IT'S THE SAME THING AS WITH THE PROCLAMATIONS. AT THAT POINT, YOU ONLY CAN OBJECT, PULL IT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IT, IT'S, YOUR HANDS ARE TIED. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS DONE AS BY AS A BODY OF THE WHOLE, AND THERE'S ONLY THREE ENTITIES, RIGHT? FOR THESE APPOINTMENTS. HPCP AND Z. P AND Z AND TAB, RIGHT? THAT'S IT. RIGHT? P PS PS. YEAH. ALRIGHT. AND P-S-P-R-S. SO FOUR. AND THE PS PRS WE ONLY APPOINT TWO MEMBERS TO THE TWO PUBLIC MEMBERS. AND THEY'RE GENERALLY PRETTY STABLE TOO. WELL, WE'LL GET TO THE LAYS ON THE QUESTION. AND DOES COUNCIL ALWAYS HAVE THE, IF IF IT GOES TO THE FULL COUNCIL TO DO THE INTERVIEWS AND SO FORTH, DO WE GET TO SHORTLIST WHO WE WANT TO INTERVIEW? OR ARE WE REQUIRED TO INTERVIEW ALL APPLICANTS FOR THOSE THREE BOARDS? SO THE ONLY WAY TO SHORTLIST IT WOULD BE TO DO, LIKE WE'RE DOING RIGHT NOW FOR THE VACANT COUNSELOR POSITION IS HAVE ONE MEETING WHERE YOU VOTE, YOU KNOW, YAY OR NAY, AND WHO'S GONNA BE MOVED TO AN INTERVIEW. YOU KNOW, THERE, THIS IS JUST THE COST OF TIME. I MEAN THAT'S MM-HMM . BUT IT'S FOR, FOR A FEW OF US, I THINK. YEAH. THAT'S NOT A LIKE, REASON NOT TO, I'M JUST SAYING THAT'S THE COST. IT'S JUST TIME FOR MORE OF US. THAT'S ALL. BUT THESE ARE, THESE ARE IMPORTANT. JOE, FOR THE CITY COUNCIL MEMBER. YOU'RE DOING THAT DURING A REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING. IS YOUR IDEA FOR THESE OTHER INTERVIEWS AT A SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING? I WOULD SAY, OR AT A REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING, YOU KNOW. OH, OKAY. SO P AND Z, WE HAVE TWO APPLICANTS NOW FOR A SEAT. DO WE NEED A SPECIAL MEETING TO INTERVIEW TWO PEOPLE? THIS IS WHY I, I THINK WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT SORT OF GRANTING THE MAYOR TO DEFINE A PROCESS FOR EVERY VACANCY THAT COMES UP AND, AND, AND SEND THAT PROCESS TO COUNCIL FOR APPROVAL. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, IN A SHORT, IN AN EASY THING LIKE P AND Z, IT MIGHT BE A SHORTCUT PROCESS, BUT YOU OUTLINE IT EVERY TIME AND THEN WE APPROVE IT OR CHANGE IT IF WE DIDN'T LIKE IT. I, I, I THINK WE NEED TO DO THIS AS A BODY OF THE WHOLE, WE ARE DOING AS A BODY OF THE WHOLE, I JUST THINK SOMEONE NEEDS TO TAKE A LEAD AND WHETHER WE COULD SIT HERE FOR AN HOUR AND TRY TO COME UP WITH ALL THE LANGUAGE SPECIFICALLY FOR EVERY OPTION THAT COMES UP. AND THAT COULD BE DIFFICULT. OTHERWISE WE, BUT CAN'T IT JUST BE ONE PROCESS? YEAH, I, IT'S THE SAME PROCESS THAT WE WOULD HAVE, HEAR ME OUT AND TELL ME WHERE YOU DISAGREE ON THIS. THAT WE HAVE NOW FOR THE CAL VACANCY, THERE MAY ONLY BE AN APPLICANT OR TWO APPLICANTS IN THESE CASES. RIGHT. BUT STILL, WE WOULD'VE A MEETING SAY, OKAY, [06:05:01] MAYBE THESE APPLICANTS AREN'T SUFFICIENT, THEREFORE WE NEED TO RECAST FOR MORE. RIGHT? I MEAN, THAT'S HAPPENED. YEAH, THAT HAPPENED. BUT, AND IT SHOULD BE AGAIN, A DECISION OF THE WHOLE. SO I THINK THE SAME PROCESS THAT WE'RE EMPLOYING NOW SHOULD BE THE ONE THAT IS UTILIZE CONSISTENCY FOR THE CONSISTENTLY FOR THESE WHERE WE REVIEW THE APPLICATIONS, DECIDE WHO WE WANT TO INTERVIEW, AND THEN SCHEDULE THE INTERVIEWS. MIGHT BE SOME, MIGHT BE NONE. THE ONE LITTLE GLITCH IN HERE, LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT IS THAT PRECEDENTS, WHICH WE CAN CHANGE, IS THAT THE CHAIR OF THAT BODY IS ALSO PARTICIPATING IN THE INTERVIEWS. MM-HMM . HOW DO WE FEEL ABOUT THAT? SO I THINK THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE BECAUSE THEY'RE THE ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS MOST HOW THE BODY WORKS. AND, UM, WHETHER OR NOT DURING AN INTERVIEW PROCESS THEY, THE PERSONS BEING INTERVIEWED ACTUALLY ALSO UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS IN WHICH THE BODY WORKS. NOT LOOKING FOR HOMOGENEITY, BUT LOOKING FOR, UH, PEOPLE WHO CAN GET ON THEIR FEET FAST. UM, AS FAR AS IT GOES. WELL THERE'S ALSO LIKE FOR PLANNING AND ZONING AS AN EXAMPLE, THE CHAIR IS ALWAYS LOOKING AT THE QUALIFICATIONS AND WHERE THERE'S HOLES AND GAPS IN KNOWLEDGE. BUT HOW DO WE DO THAT THEN? DO THEY COME UP HERE AND PARTICIPATE IN THE INTERVIEW? IS THAT FEASIBLE OR PERMITABLE SCHEDULE A SHORT SPECIAL MEETING BEFORE YOUR REGULAR MEETING. THAT'S THE INTERVIEW COMMITTEE FOR ACTS COMMISSION. AND THEN YOU HAVE THAT PERSON JOIN YOU. I DON'T KNOW, AT A REGULAR CITY COUNCIL MEETING, YOU HAVE SOMEONE COME UP? YEAH. IT'D BE A LITTLE AWKWARD TO DO THAT AT THE REGULAR CITY COUNCIL MEETING. SIR. I DON'T THINK I WOULD DO IT AS A SPECIAL MEETING RIGHT BEFORE YOUR REGULAR MEETING. OKAY. THAT, SO I MEAN THE LANGUAGE HERE ONLY JUST REALLY NEEDS TO CHANGE FROM THE MAYOR AND MAYOR'S DESIGNEE JUST TO THE CITY COUNCIL AND THE CHAIR AND THE CHAIR OR VICE CHAIR OF THE CHAIR IS APPLYING FOR YOUR APPOINTMENT. MM-HMM . FORM THE REVIEWING BODY. UM, I THINK FROM A SCHEDULING POINT OF VIEW, WE TRY TO MAYBE TRY TO CONSOLIDATE SOME OF THESE. SO WE'RE NOT DOING THESE, UM, THEY GENERALLY ALL COME UP THIS TIME OF YEAR, RIGHT? UNLESS SOMEONE RESIGNS. YEAH. BETWEEN THE HISTORIC, IF I'M CORRECT, THE HPC AND THE PLANNING AND ZONING, IT SEEMS THAT AROUND OCTOBER, NOVEMBER THEY, THE TERMS, BUT RIGHT NOW WE ARE SOLICITING FOR THE TAB HPC AND PLANNING AND ZONING ALL THREE. RIGHT. I JUST, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHEN THOSE TERMS. AND I THINK RIGHT NOW WITH THE TAB, IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING STAGGERED. YOU KNOW, THEY HAD STAGGERED RIGHT. TO INITIATE. IT'S TRUE. SO YEAH, GOING FORWARD IT'LL BE SIMILAR. AND THEN ALSO I THINK THAT THE VICE CHAIR FOR THE COMMISSIONER BOARD IS ALSO INVOLVED IF THE CHAIR IS NOT ABLE TO ATTEND. RIGHT. IT'S, YEAH, IT'S ON HERE. KEEP THAT. AND WHAT'S THE P-S-P-R-S SCHEDULE FOR THE TWO PUBLIC MEMBERS? THERE IS A TERM OF THE PUBLIC MEMBERS. UH, YEAH, THERE IS P-S-P-R-S BOARD. YEP. PS YEAH. PUBLIC SAFETY PERSONNEL RETIREMENT. YEAH, THERE'S SYSTEM, THERE'S, THERE'S A, THERE'S A, A DURATION OF THE PUBLIC MEMBER'S TERMS THAT, AND THEY CAN GET REAPPOINTED CORRECTS. THERE IS A TERM FOR THE SWORN STAFF, BUT THEY ARE ELECTED WITHIN RIGHT. THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. AND THEN THE OTHER IS THE LIAISON. THE CHAIR IS THE LIAISON. THIS MAKES ME VERY HAPPY. I THINK IT'S A FOUR YEAR TERM, BUT WE'LL CHECK ON THAT. YEAH, I THINK THAT'S RIGHT. SO ARE WE IN AGREEMENT? I THINK SO. OKAY. AND IF SO, THERE'S GONNA BE EIGHT OF US VOTING THEN? MM-HMM . THE SEVEN OF US, PLUS THE CHAIR OF THE BOARD. WE'D LIKE TO HAVE AN ODD NUMBER, BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. WELL BE SET. YEAH. EIGHT. WE COULD ASK THE CHAIR AND THE VICE CHAIR, THE, THE MAYOR TO ONLY VOTE IN THE EVENT OF AT TIE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT IN, IF THAT'S THE CASE FOR THOSE, SINCE IT'S, YEAH. I MEAN BOARD IT WOULD JUST BE IF IT, AND IF FOUR FOUR, THEN THE MOTION WOULD FAIL. 'CAUSE YOU'D NEED A MAJORITY OF, SO YOU'D NEED FIVE. KEEP TRYING. BUT WE COULD HAVE THE CHAIR AND THE VICE CHAIR OF THE COMMISSION. OH. AND MAKE IT NINE. NINE, MM-HMM . ACTUALLY, I LIKE THAT IDEA. THAT OPENS IT UP. 'CAUSE WHAT IF THEY HAVE DISSENTING VIEWS OF, SO TYPICALLY THEN AT THOSE INTERVIEWS, THE RECOMMENDATION [06:10:01] IS BROUGHT FORWARD TO COUNCIL FOR COUNCIL APPROVAL. SO IF COUNCIL IS THE ONE IT'S DONE SELECTING, THEN IS THERE, IS THAT DONE AT THAT MEETING OR A SEPARATE MEETING FOR THE APPOINTMENT? NO. THEN THAT'S DONE. THAT'S THE SELECTION. IT CAN BE DONE AT THAT MEETING. YEAH. YEP. OR YOU COULD PUT IT ON CONSENT AGENDA FOR, YOU KNOW, ON THE REGULAR MEETING WHY WE ALREADY VOTED . YEAH. I MEAN, RIGHT NOW THE VOTE HAPPENS RIGHT AFTER THE INTERVIEWS, BUT COMES TO COUNCIL FOR MM-HMM . RUBBER STAMP. MM-HMM . YEAH. THE RECOMMENDATION IS MADE MM-HMM . DIRECTLY AFTER THE INTERVIEWS AND THEN COMES TO COUNCIL FOR, FOR APPROVAL OF THE APPOINTMENT AND THE RECOMMENDATION, YOU WILL REGULARLY HAVE A CHAIR OR VICE CHAIR UP FOR REAPPOINTMENT. SO THAT'S MY ONLY THOUGHT ABOUT, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO INCLUDE BOTH OF 'EM EVERY TIME, LET'S JUST LEAVE IT AT THE EIGHT AND GOTTA GET TO A MAJORITY. I I DON'T THINK IT'LL BE EIGHT. YEAH. ME NEITHER. I THINK IT'S FINE. ALL RIGHT. OKAY. SO, OKAY. WHERE ARE WE? SO WE ARE AT, UH, MEMBERSHIP AND SELECTION OF COMMISSIONER BOARD MEMBERS. WE JUST WENT THROUGH THAT. MEMBERSHIP AND SELECTION OF COUNCIL COMMITTEE MEMBERS. THIS IS, WELL, WE TALKED ABOUT THIS TOO. YEAH. IT'S A REPEAT RIGHT. RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS. UM, WHY IS P-S-P-R-S NOT MENTIONED HERE WITH THE RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT? I MEAN, TAB IS AN EXCEPTION, BUT MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE OF THE SWORN STAFF WHO MAY NOT ALL LIVE IN CITY LIMITS. BUT YOU MEAN THE OTHER, I THINK FOR THE TWO PUBLIC, PUBLIC APPOINTMENTS, WE DON'T HAVE THE TAB IN HERE FOR RESIDENCY. THEY'RE NOT RESIDENCY. THE P-S-P-R-S TAB HAS ITS OWN RULES. SOME ARE ALLOWED TO BE OUTSIDE OF IT, HAVE A, A BUSINESS INSIDE. ARE THEY STATUTORILY DEFINED? NO, THAT'S COUNSEL DEFINED IT BY RESOLUTION. WHEN THEY ESTABLISH TAB, THE P-S-P-R-S MEMBERS DON'T HAVE TO BE RESIDENTS. WHY WOULDN'T THEY? IT IT'S MAKING FINANCIAL DECISIONS ON BEHALF OF THE CITY. AND SHOULDN'T YOU HAVE TO BE A RESIDENT TO BE THE PUBLIC APPOINTEE TO THAT BODY? WHY WOULD WE HAVE A, SO WE'RE REPRESENTED BY SOME POLICE OFFICERS ON THAT BOARD TOO. AND THEY'RE NOT RESIDENTS. THAT'S FINE. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE TWO PUBLIC APPOINTEES THAT THIS BOARD, I MEAN, THEY CAN BE, THEY JUST, I DON'T THINK THEY'RE REQUIRED TO BE. WELL, LET'S, AND I'M SAYING I THINK THEY SHOULD BE. ARE THEY NOW? YES, THEY ARE. NOW. THAT'S NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE. I KNOW. THE ISSUE IS WE REALLY TRY TO FIND PUBLIC MEMBERS THAT HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE ABOUT PERSONNEL PROCESSES OR ACCOUNTING. RIGHT. SO THEY UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT OR RIGHT. THERE'S SOME SPECIALTY KNOWLEDGE THAT LIMITS THE POOL. BUT WE, WE, WE'VE ALWAYS HAD, UH, SEDONA RESIDENTS ON THE PUBLIC POSITIONS. I THINK IT SHOULD BE SPECIFIED AS SEDONA. 'CAUSE AGAIN, YOU IT'S A FIDUCIARY POSITION. ANYONE HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO THAT? OKAY. AND THEN THE TABS, NOT EVEN, IT SHOULDN'T BE MAYOR. YES. I JUST WANTED TO CONFIRM THAT. YES. THE P-S-P-R-S UM, TERMS ARE FOUR YEARS. THANK YOU. SO IN THE TAB WE SAID, I BELIEVE THAT YOU HAD TO BE A RESIDENT OR HAVE A BUSINESS IN SEDONA. UH, I THINK WE ALSO HAD SOMETHING ABOUT A SPECIALTY KNOWLEDGE IN TOURISM OR SOMETHING. WE HAD, I THOUGHT WE HAD SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WELL, THIS IS JUST UNDER THE RESIDENCY SECTION. YEAH, I KNOW. BUT THAT'S THE EXCEPTION. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT AS AN EXCEPTION. IT WAS THAT YOU HAD TO OWN A BUSINESS HERE OR BE AN EMPLOYEE OF A BUSINESS HERE, OR YOU HAD TO BE A RESIDENT HERE. THAT'S HOW WE, MOST OF OUR TAB MEMBERS ACTUALLY ARE AFFILIATED WITH BUSINESSES. THEY'RE NOT JUST RESIDENTS. I THINK THE PUBLIC MEMBERS ARE, YOU KNOW, THE NON-BUSINESS RELATED PEOPLE ARE RESIDENTS. BUT THAT'S SO BAD THOUGH. SO CAN WE PUT THAT'S, THAT'S SO BAD. I WOULD JUST LEAVE IT IN THE ORDER. IN THE RESOLUTION. YEAH. I DON'T KNOW WHY NECESSARILY WE HAVE ANY OF THIS IN HERE NECESSARILY. 'CAUSE IT'S ALL GENERALLY CONTROLLED BY THE BOARD ZONE, UH, ADOPTING DOCUMENTS. UM, SO YOU THINK WE SHOULD REMOVE IT? NO, IT'S, IT'S FINE. I DON'T KNOW IF WE NEED TO REMOVE, IT'S GOOD TO HAVE A [06:15:01] REMINDER AS WHEN WE'RE LOOKING TO APPOINT COMMISSIONERS AND THAT PROCESS NEEDS TO BE IN HERE. UM, BUT THE RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS CAN JUST BE, WELL, IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE THE FORMATION OF THE TAB FOLLOWED, UH, PARAGRAPH TWO THERE IN, UH, SETTING UP THE MEMBERSHIP. SO I'M ASSUMING THE RESOLUTION THAT YOU PASSED, ESTABLISHING THE TAB, KEPT THIS IN MIND. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE TO LIST THE TAB SEPARATELY. THEY ARE KIND OF A SPECIAL SINGLE ISSUE COMMITTEE. OKAY. SO ARE WE GONNA ADD THE TAB THEN INTO HERE? JUST TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT EXISTS AND IT IS A COMMISSION? THAT'S, I MEAN, NOT, NOT THE PURPOSE OF THIS SECTION. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NEED TO ADD IT, BUT WE, WELL, BY LEAVING IT OUT SEEMS TO ME TO SAY SOMETHING. I DON'T KNOW WHAT, BUT THINK IT SHOULD. THEY ALL SHOULD BE THERE. HOW ABOUT IF YOU JUST PARENTHETICALLY PUT FOR EXAMPLE THE TAB , LIKE RIGHT HERE. SPECIAL SINGLE ISSUE COMMITTEES LIKE THE EG LIKE THE TOURISM ADVISORY. OKAY. ARE WE READY TO MOVE ON TO RULE SIX OR J ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING? E-B-E-E-E. THE REMOVAL. OH, OKAY. AND I THINK THAT'S A LITTLE TOO BROAD, ESPECIALLY RESPECT TO THE P-S-P-R-S-A LOT. UM, UH, SAFETY OFFICERS, WE CAN'T REMOVE THEM, I DON'T THINK. AND BY STATE LAW. BUT MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE IT'S STATE LAW. DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS OKAY. OR IS OTHERWISE PROVIDED BY ORDINANCE OR CITY CODE. DOES THAT FIT? NOT NOT IN OUR ORDINANCE OR CITY CODE? WE CAN. OKAY. SO WE CAN ADD STATE LAW. YEAH. STATE LAW. YEP. YEP. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE? ANYTHING ELSE? OKAY, WE'RE GETTING THERE. RULE SIX, CITIZENS INTERACTION. HERE'S THE DISORDERLY CONDUCT DEFINITION I WAS LOOKING FOR. EITHER EARLIER PERSON COMMITS TO STORY OF CONDUCT. IF WITH THE INTENT TO DISTURB THE PEACE REQUIRE OF A PERSON OR WITH KNOWLEDGE OF DOING SO. SUCH PERSON DOWN HERE MAKES ANY PROTRACTED COMMOTION, UTTERANCE OR DISPLAY WITH THE INTENT TO PREVENT THE TRANSACTION OF BUSINESS OF A LAWFUL MEETING, GATHERING OR PROCESSION. WHAT, WHAT SECTION ARE YOU ON? I SKIPPED DOWN A LITTLE BIT TOO. YEAH, YOU DID THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE AFTER NOTES, FOOTNOTES IN THE FOOTNOTES. IT COMES IN B2B THREE IS WHERE THE REFERENCE TO A RS 13 29 0 4 COMES TO. AND THE ONE THAT APPLIES TO US IS, OR GENERALLY ANYWAYS, WOULD BE I, I THOUGHT UNDER B ONE WE HAD REMOVED HAND CLAPPING STOMPING FEET THAT WE ALLOWED THEM TO CLAP. NOW WE DO, BUT NOT WHEN SUCH CONDUCT SUBSTANTIALLY INTERRUPTS THE LASER DISTURBS A PIECE IN GOOD ORDER OF THE PROCEEDINGS. SO IF THEY ALL DECIDE TO JUST CONTINUE TO CLAP AND CLAP AND CLAP AND CLAP AND CLAP, AND YOU COULDN'T KEEP THE BUSINESS GOING, THEN EVENTUALLY THAT RISE TO DISORDERLY CONDUCT. THAT LANGUAGE WAS TAKEN FROM A NINTH CIRCUIT COURT CASE WITH US AT CALIFORNIA CITY. AND AGAIN, THEY'LL HAVE A TRAINING ON THIS TOMORROW AND WEDNESDAY WHERE YOU CAN ASK LOTS OF SCENARIO QUESTIONS OF, UM, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND HOW THIS IS GOING TO WORK OR WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO, ALL THAT. SO CURRENT, HOW ENFORCEABLE IN B ONE IS PROFANE LANGUAGE. WHERE DOES THAT START? JUST PROFANE ON. ITS ONLY WHEN ITS STOPS. ONLY WHEN SUCH CONDUCT SUBSTANTIALLY INTERRUPTS THE DELAYS OR DISTURBS THE PEACE IN GOOD ORDER OF THE MEETING. SO IF THEY'RE GONNA SIT THERE AND YELL, YOU KNOW, UH, F THE SEDONA CITY COUNCIL OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AGAIN, THEN IT CAN RISE TO DISORDERLY CONDUCT. IF THEY THROW OUT, YOU KNOW, A FEW SWEAR WORDS IN THEIR THREE MINUTES ON PUBLIC FORUM, THAT'S FINE. OKAY. SO PREVIOUSLY AFTER SOME WHAT COULD BE ARGUED, PROFANE [06:20:01] LANGUAGE HAS BEEN USED, BUT DID NOT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF DELAYING THE MEETING. THE OFFICER LEADING THE MEETING SAID TO SAID INDIVIDUAL, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY KEEP IT CLEAN. , THE, THE, THE COMMENT WAS VERY CLEAR AND IT WAS, I, I KNOW I CAN'T REQUIRE YOU TO, BUT I THINK YOU SHOULD TRY TO KEEP IT CLEAN. WE HAVE OTHER, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WATCHING THIS AND WE WANNA BE POLITE TO EVERYONE. OKAY. AND THAT'S PERFECTLY APPROPRIATE TO ASK PEOPLE TO MAINTAIN DECORUM. UM, IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO, THAT'S UP TO THEM. UM, AND CORRECT. THEY DON'T HAVE TO REFRAIN FROM THEIR SEEING GESTURE, SHE OR PROFANE LANGUAGE, BUT, UH, UNLESS IT RISES ALL THE WAY UP TO A DISORDERLY CONDUCT TYPE CHARGE. SO WE, WE CAN REQUEST AND THEY CAN IGNORE YOU. IGNORE, YEAH. OKAY. THEY CAN USE PROFANE LANGUAGE TO OBJECT YOUR REQUEST. . THEY, THEY CAN AND, AND HAVE AND WILL AND OTHER LOCAL BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS AND CITIES SIGNING OFFICER . OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE ON C OR D? WOULD ANYBODY LIKE A BREAK? YES. OKAY. NOW, 10 MINUTE BREAK FEEDBACK. THREE 15 . WE'RE IN RECESS TILL THREE 15. OKAY. NOW WE'RE GETTING READY TO GO TO DISCUSS A PROCEDURE FOR COUNCIL AND CITY MANAGER LIAISONS, REPRESENTATIVES TO REGIONAL BOARDS AND COMMITTEES. KATHY . SO AS THIS APPOINTMENT SHALL BE MADE AT THE MAYOR'S DISCRETION, AND THESE ARE, UH, FROM MY UNDERSTANDING SUPPOSED TO BE, UM, COUNCIL LIAISONS. SO THEREFORE, SHOULDN'T THE MAYOR MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE COUNCIL FOR COUNCILS VOTE TO MAKE THIS, THESE COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS. AND THAT WAY THERE WOULD BE SOME DISCUSSION MAYBE ON THE DAY AS IF IT WAS ANIS ITEM ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHO MIGHT FEEL THEY'RE BETTER SUITED TOWARDS CERTAIN ROLE OR SOMETHING. AT THE MOMENT, IT, IT'S JUST SORT OF BEEN ASSIGNED, UM, INPUT HAD BEEN UNDER PREVIOUS, PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION SOUGHT FOR WHAT, YOU KNOW, BUT NOT SO MUCH IN THE PAST AND MORE IMMEDIATE PAST. SO I'D LIKE TO GET THIS OPENED UP TO BEING A MORE INCLUSIVE REPRESENTATIVE AND COUNCIL APPOINTMENT PROCESS. AND WE DO HAVE AN OPENING, WHICH WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT TODAY, BUT THERE IS, YOU KNOW, SOME URGENCY MM-HMM . BECAUSE WE HAVE TO FILL AT LEAST ONE IMPORTANT LIAISON THAT MM-HMM . IT'S A HUMANE SOCIETY. RIGHT. BUT I THINK I WOULD SUGGEST WE DO THAT AFTER WE'VE APPOINTED A COUNCIL MEMBER TO THE VACANT POSITION, WHICH WE CAN WAIT AND DO AND REASSIGN THINGS IF WE WANT TO. BUT I'M JUST PUTTING IT OUT THERE. I KNOW THAT'S A HIGHLY VALUED ONE. MM-HMM . THEY'RE ALL HIGHLY VALUED. WELL, BUT, BUT YOU'VE PUT, YOU'VE PUT IN, YOU'VE PUT INTO PLAY A, A CONVERSATION AROUND WHETHER OR NOT THERE NEEDS TO BE LANGUAGE AROUND WHEN THERE IS A, A URGENCY TO FILLING A POSITION. 'CAUSE THAT HAS BECOME VACANT FOR WHATEVER REASON ON COUNCIL. AND THAT'S NOT IN HERE. SO YOU'VE JUST BROUGHT UP A, TO ME, A TOPIC THAT WE NEED TO SOMEHOW EXPRESS. AND WHY DO YOU GET DIBS? I, I'M, I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHAT, I WAS JUST ASKING SOMETHING. WHAT EMERGENCY THERE WOULD BE THAT COULDN'T WAIT TO GO THROUGH A, A COUNCIL PROCESS APPOINTMENT PROCESS. WELL, FOR INSTANCE, IF A, YOU'RE, IF WE'RE CLOSE TO WHEN THEY'RE COMING BACK FOR THEIR CONTRACTS, RENEWALS, FOR INSTANCE, UM, THEY MAY WANT TO BE ABLE TO, TO WORK WITH THEIR LIAISON TO UNDERSTAND LOTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS. SO IF THERE'S NO LIAISON, THEY HAVE NO CONTACT AND THEY'RE PROBABLY GONNA GO TO THE MAYOR MANAGER AND THE CITY MANAGER OR THE MANAGER WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE OR THE CITY MANAGER TO, UM, TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION. BUT IT'S JUST, THERE ARE TIMES, I THINK WHEN, WHEN HAVING SOMEONE FROM COUNCIL WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON, SITTING THERE TO BE ASKED QUESTIONS OF IS USEFUL. YOU CAN MAKE TEMPORARY APPOINTMENTS. I DON'T THINK YOU WANNA DO THAT. THAT I DON'T EITHER. BUT IF IT EMERGENCY SITUATION LIKE THAT. BUT THEN THEY DON'T KNOW THE PERSON. THEY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. AND THEN THEY'RE GONNA BE REPLACED SHORTLY AFTER IT'S POSSIBLY, [06:25:01] POSSIBLY OR POSSIBLY NOT. BUT THE CITY MANAGER IS THE RELIEF VALVE IT SOUNDS LIKE, SO MM-HMM . MM-HMM . YES. AND, AND THEY ACTUALLY SHOULD BE DISCUSSING WITH THE CITY MANAGER. MM-HMM . SO, SO WHAT WE'RE, WHAT'S BEING SUGGESTED THEN IS THAT THE MAYOR MAKES RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE COUNCIL. AND THE COUNCIL HAS THE ULTIMATE DECISION. RIGHT. WHICH ISN'T EXACTLY WHAT KURT WROTE. SO DO WE NEED, DO YOU STILL WANT THE MAYOR TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS? YEAH. WITH INPUT FROM THE CITY MANAGER. I THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE. AND THEN COUNCIL APPROVES IT. OKAY. DOES THAT MEET YOUR CITY COUNCIL SHALL APPOINT LIAISONS AFTER INPUT FROM THE MAYOR AND THE CITY MANAGER? I MEAN, TO ME IT'S PUTTING A, LIKE THE, THE MAYOR PUTS A SLATE FORWARD. YEAH, I AGREE. RIGHT? LIKE, IT NEEDS TO BE LIKE THAT BECAUSE SOMEONE'S GONNA SET THE TARGET. BECAUSE THERE MAY BE THREE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO BE THE LIAISON TO THE HUMANE SOCIETY, AND WE DON'T WANT FIGHT THAT OUT HERE. SO MAYBE MORE THAN THREE . UM, YEAH, I WAS JUST LOOKING FOR LANGUAGE TO CAPTURE IT. THAT'S ALL. AND IT WAS, AND IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE LOOKING AT THE ASSIGNMENTS, UH, THAT THE FORMER MAYOR HAD, I NEVER HEARD OF SEVERAL OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS. AND THEN IT TURNS OUT THAT WE'RE NOT EVEN INVOLVED WITH, THAT WAS NOT THE MAYOR'S DOING, BUT JUST THAT WE'RE NOT EVEN INVOLVED WITH SOME OF THEM. SO THAT REALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE IS THE LIAISON TO A SERVICE CONTRACT. THE OTHERS ARE NOT, YOU KNOW, ARE MORE REGIONAL GROUPS, BUT WE CAN GO THROUGH THEM. I THINK THAT CAPTURES IT. YEAH. YES. OKAY, GREAT. EXCEPT, YEAH. YEAH. YOU GOT IT. OKAY. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE? THE ROLES, RIGHT? LET'S PAY ATTENTION TO SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF COUNSEL. I JUST, SO WE ARE ALL FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH IT. I'M NOT SUGGESTING ANY CHANGES, I'M JUST SAYING WE SHOULD READ IT. MM-HMM . SORRY, I GUESS I'M STILL ON, UH, B THREE, LIKE, LIAISON SHOULD NEVER VOTE OR MAKE COMMITMENTS ON ANYTHING WITHOUT DELEGATION FROM COUNCIL. NAAG HAS VOTING REGULARLY. MM-HMM . MOST OF WHICH IS, UM, IMMATERIAL FRANKLY TO THE CITY FROM A DAY-TO-DAY PERSPECTIVE. BUT, UH, METHOD OF DISTRIBUTION FOR THE COMMUNITY BLOCK DEVELOPMENT GRANT IS MATERIAL. AND I ACTUALLY NEED INPUT FROM THIS BODY, WHICH I GUESS HAS TO BE AGENDIZED, UH, TO GET SAID INPUT. BUT THAT IS ONE INSTANCE WHERE THE LIAISON REALLY DOES NEED INPUT FROM COUNCIL. SO, YEAH. AND ON THE, ON BOTH OF THE WATER BOARDS, WE VOTE MOSTLY ON ITEMS OF BUSINESS THAT WE'RE GONNA, WE'RE DIRECTING STAFF. IT'S OUR ATTACK TO BRING FURTHER STUFF BACK. BUT THERE'S LEGISLATION THAT WE DO TOO. ALL THOSE ITEMS BECAUSE OF THE TIME I ALWAYS RUN BY THE CITY MANAGER AND THE LEAD STAFF PERSON, BUT NOT THE COUNCIL. JUST TELL THE COUNCIL. 'CAUSE I THINK THAT UNLESS THERE'S SOMETHING THAT WE'VE NEVER DISCUSSED OR TAKEN A POSITION ON, OR, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU THINK YOU, YOU'RE NOT ON SOLID GROUND. YEAH. YEAH. SHOULD WE NEVER VOTE ON SUBSTANTIVE ITEMS OR, YEAH, THERE YOU GO. BECAUSE IF YOU'RE APPROVING LIKE MINUTES FROM LAST MEETING OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, OR BUT YOU ARE A VOTING MEMBER ON THE TWO REGIONAL WATER BOARDS. YES. I'M A OR A DUES PAYING VOTING MEMBER. SEE, 'CAUSE THAT'S NOT A LIAISON IN THE SERVICE CONTRACT ARENA. NO, IT'S NOT. THAT'S A, THAT'S ACTUAL APPOINTMENT. THAT'S A REPRESENTATIVE. AND YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO BE A CITY COUNSELOR TO BE APPOINTED. RIGHT. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. I THOUGHT YOU TOLD ME THAT BEFORE I, I DON'T KNOW THAT I, OKAY. THAT WAS, I THINK, A QUESTION TO YOU. I THINK I WAS ASKING THAT [06:30:01] QUESTION WHETHER OKAY. WHETHER WE HAVE TO OR NOT. YEAH. I'D LIKE TO SEPARATE OUT THE FIVE SERVICE CONTRACT LIAISON SHIPS FROM THESE, FROM NAAG AT WATERBOARD. WHICH, WHICH ARE IN A DIFFERENT CATEGORY. WELL, THEN THEY, THEY ARE. SO YOUVE GOT I'M THE LIAISON TOO. THAT'S ANOTHER CATEGORY. THEY, THAT'S NOT AN OFFICIAL. THAT'S, THAT'S NOT, SEE, THAT'S OKAY. I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP. YEAH, YEAH. IT'S EXACTLY SAME THING WITH THE HOUSING COMMITTEE IS NOT A COMMITTEE OF THE CITY. KSB, WE DON'T HAVE A POSITION ON THE KSB BOARD. AND I'M NOT A VOTING MEMBER. I COME TO YOU ARE AN INDIVIDUAL WHO GOES TO THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE INTERESTED. YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTING THIS FATHER. NO. HE ON THE REPRESENTING SHOULDN'T BE. IT'S NOT ONE OF OUR LIAISONS. IT IS, IT IS. IT HASN'T BEEN UNDER WHAT AUSPICES IS IT? IT'S NOT A CONTRACT. AND WE'RE NOT PAYING DUES. WE'RE NOT WHATEVER. IT SHOULD NOT BE. WE NEED CLARIFICATION AROUND KSB, THE HOUSING COMMITTEE. I DON'T EVEN LIKE USING THE WORD COMMITTEE. UM, SO I THINK IT FALLS UNDER KSB FALLS UNDER THE INFORMAL VOLUNTARY ONES. OUR COMMUNITY SERVICE PROVIDERS FALL UNDER FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIPS, OG AND THE WATER BOARDS FALLS UNDER SHARED GOVERNANCE. SO IT'S GOT 'EM ALL HERE. I THINK I BUT KSB AGAIN, INFORMAL, VOLUNTARY. INFORMAL VOLUNTARY IS NOT REPRESENTING THE CITY. NO, IT IS. IF COUNCIL, IF COUNCIL ASSIGNS SOMEONE TO BE ON THAT INFORMAL BOARD, IT'S A SLIPPERY SLOPE. YOU KNOW, YOU START ATTENDING, YOU KNOW, MEETINGS THAT YOU'RE GOING AND ARE YOU THERE IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY? I MEAN, YOU'RE ALWAYS A COUNSELOR, YOU KNOW, AND THEY'RE ALWAYS, PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS GONNA LOOK TO YOU THAT WAY. BUT IT NEEDS TO BE CLEAR FOR US WHAT YOU'RE BEING EMPOWERED SO THAT YOU SHOULD BE USING THAT DISCLAIMER ABOUT ONLY SPEAKING AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND NOT REPRESENTING, BECAUSE THINGS SHOULD COME BACK TO US AS A BODY. SO KSB IS, IS A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS, OF WHERE THINGS ARE VERY CLOUDED. YEAH. THERE'S A FEW ON THERE THAT ARE INFORMAL. VOLUNTARY. SEDONA LODGING, SUSTAINABILITY FLOWS. AIRPORT, PORT BOARD AIRPORT. SO LET'S, LET'S GO BACK CHAMBER. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. KSB ASKED FOR A LIAISON FROM THE CITY, AND THEY'VE ALWAYS HAD A REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE CITY, THE LODGING COUNCIL. DO YOU KNOW YOU'RE THE OFFICIAL REPRESENTATIVE? IT'S 'CAUSE YOU TOLD ME . YEAH. I MEAN, THAT'S NOT REAL. I MEAN, SERIOUSLY, BECAUSE THEY DON'T ASK FOR ANYBODY. MULTIPLE COUNCIL PEOPLE GO, THEY DON'T ASK FOR A REPORT FROM COUNCIL. THEY ASK FOR A REPORT FROM, FROM THE TOURISM FOLKS. SO I'M NOT SURE WE NEED TO, WE NEED TO DISCUSS THIS. WE PROBABLY NEED TO AGENDIZE THIS. I DON'T THINK SOME OF THEM SHOULD BE ON THIS LIST. YEAH. YOU GUYS GUYS CAN BRING THAT UP AT FUTURE MEETING AND AGENDA ITEMS FOR A FUTURE ITEM TO DISCUSS THIS. MM-HMM . YEAH. SO I DON'T THINK THE, I DON'T KNOW THAT THE RULE NEEDS TO CHANGE, BUT MAYBE WHERE THE ORGANIZATIONS FIT IN EACH OF THESE RULES OR, OR SHOULD BE ELIMINATED ALSO. OR IF THEY FIT CORRECT. SO LIKE, LIKE GSRC, WOULD THAT BE SHARED GOVERNANCE? YEAH, I WAS GOING TO BRING THAT. IT'S NOT REALLY SHARED GOVERNANCE PER SE, BUT IT'S NOT, IT'S MORE THAN AN INFORMAL VOLUNTARY, BECAUSE I BRING THINGS BACK TO COUNCIL AND I BRING THINGS TO THE CITY MANAGER FOR THEM TO PAY ATTENTION TO. AND I DIRECT OTHER AGENCIES THAT ARE REPRESENTED WHO TO SPEAK TO AT THE CITY WHEN IT'S BEYOND MY PURVIEW TO, TO TO SPEAK. SO IT'S, IT'S KIND OF, I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT IS. AND THEY'RE NOT ON THE LIST. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AIRPORT OR ROCK? GSRC. GSRC. OKAY. THAT'S NOT ROCK. GSRC. SORRY. SORRY, SORRY, SORRY. YES. GSRC. THE, THE AIRPORT IS SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. AND USUALLY WE HAVE A DEPUTY MANAGER WHO SHOWS UP, NOT ALWAYS, BUT WE USUALLY HAVE ONE OF THEM. SO THEY'RE THERE. THEY RE REAL OFFICIAL. AND I FEEL, FOR ME, I'M NOT ON THE AIRPORT BOARD WHEN I'M DOING IT. I'M A RESIDENT RIGHT. WHO'S, WHO'S SHOWING UP. UM, AND THEN WHEN THERE'S NO DEPUTY CITY MANAGER, I MIGHT REPORT BACK TO THE CITY MANAGER IF THERE WAS ANYTHING SAID THAT I THOUGHT THE CITY MANAGER NEEDS TO KNOW AND THEN BRING TO COUNCIL. SO I DON'T KNOW WHERE THOSE, THOSE FIT USED TO BE. THERE WAS ALSO A FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GSRC BECAUSE WHEN THE, THE FORMER CITY MANAGER WAS HERE, SHE HAD MONEY GOING IN, JUST LIKE MONEY GOING INTO THE VERDE, UH, FRIENDS OF THE VERDE RIVER. SO HOW, HOW DOES ALL OF THAT FIT IN? RIGHT? SO THERE'S, THERE'S ALL OF THESE THAT ARE JUST NOT PERFECT. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IF WE LOSE OUR REPRESENTATION ON THOSE, THEY, THERE COULD BE NEGATIVE IMPACTS IN THE CITY AND WE WON'T KNOW IT UNTIL IT'S DONE. RIGHT. SO THAT, YEAH. I WAS GONNA BRING UP THE GSRC, BUT WE HAD A CONVERSATION GOING HERE. I DIDN'T WANNA INTERRUPT, BUT YOU WERE APPOINTED BY KAREN TO [06:35:01] BE A CITY REPRESENTATIVE AND THE FORMER MAYOR APPROVED. YEAH. YEAH. SO IT FOLLOWED THE PROCESS AND I FEEL LIKE THAT ONE GSRC WAS A FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIP IS HOW IT STARTED OUT AS START IT OUT. AND SO I DON'T KNOW IF AT SOME POINT IT EXPIRES OFF THE FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIP CATEGORY AND GETS BUMPED DOWN. WE HAVEN'T PAID ANYTHING IN . UH, BUT MAYBE IT'S A ONE TIME BUY-IN. SO THAT'S SOMETHING WE CAN, UM, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT, THAT'S, I MEAN, SO YOU WERE MORE THAN JUST THE INFORMAL BECAUSE OF THE FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIP AT FIRST, THE CITY WAS FUNDING A A PORTION OF THAT. ANOTHER THING TO KEEP ON THE RADAR IS OUR, UH, LEAGUE OF CITIES COUNT SUBCOMMITTEE ASSIGNMENTS TOO, THAT ARE SHARED GOVERNANCE PROBABLY. AND THERE'S A TIMING ISSUE WITH THAT TOO. SO THAT'S A, THAT FUTURE. BUT THOSE, ALL THOSE ALL GET APPROVED BY THE COUNCIL. SO IF WE WANNA TAKE A POSITION OR OFFER A, UH, RESOLUTION, THEY HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY COUNCIL. OURS DO. BUT THEN YOU SIT ON THE, THE COMMITTEE AND YOU VOTE ON THE OTHER THINGS THAT PEOPLE HAVE PUT ON THERE. YEAH. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE IN MY CASE, THE MAYOR TOLD ME WHAT I WAS GOING TO BE ON. RIGHT. SO IT WASN'T LIKE ANYONE ON COUNCIL NECESSARILY KNEW, I THINK. I THINK HE JUST SAID, WE NEED SOMEBODY ON THESE LEAGUE BOARDS AND YOU'RE IT. SO I FEEL LIKE WE'VE CHANGED THIS TO, SO IT'LL BE COUNCIL APPOINTMENT AND SO IT'S TIME FOR COUNCIL TO REVIEW EVERY SINGLE LIAISON AND REPRESENTATIVE APPOINTMENT OUT THERE AND MAKE SURE IT FITS ONE OF THESE CATEGORIES. OR IF WE NEED TO AMEND THE CATEGORIES, WE DO IT LATER. BUT YEAH, I THINK I AGREE THAT'S GONNA HAVE TO BE A SEPARATE MEETING TO GO THROUGH EVERY SINGLE LIAISON ROLL OUT THERE. SO WE'LL PUT THAT ON THE AGENDA FOR AN UPCOMING MEETING. [3.b. Discussion/possible action regarding ideas for future meetings/agenda items.] OUR NEXT ITEM AFTER WE FINISH THE RULES IS DISCUSS POSSIBLE ACTION REGARDING IDEAS FOR FUTURE MEETING AND AGENDA ITEMS. SO WE CAN DISCUSS THAT. THEN I, THERE ARE SOME ORGANIZATIONS WHERE WE HAVE BEEN GIVING THEM MONEY ON, YOU KNOW, YEAR AFTER YEAR. I DON'T KNOW IF, IF WE SHOULD BE OR IF WE GET ANYTHING OUT OF IT. SO THAT'S ANOTHER THING WE SHOULD BE REVIEWING TOO. MEMBERSHIPS? YES. LIKE MEMBERSHIPS OR DONATION, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THEY ARE. GOVERNMENTAL BODY LIKE BODIES OR, UH, NO, LIKE, UH, NONPROFIT ORGANIZATIONS. OH, SORRY. CAN I ASK A QUESTION ABOUT THAT TOO? SO IF WE'RE, BUT SHOULDN'T MONEY IS GOING OTHER THAN A DUES TO BE A MEMBER OF SOMETHING. SHOULDN'T ANY MONIES THAT ARE GOING BE CONSIDERED PART OF A, LIKE A SUBGROUP OF THIS GRANTS PROGRAM OR SOMETHING? I MEAN, MONEY TO A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION. IT'S, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A, AN, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAVE MEMBERSHIP DO NO, PER SE. CUN, COUNCILLOR ELLA'S POINT IS WE DO, SO MOST OF OUR MONEY TO NONPROFITS GOES THROUGH THE SMALL GRANTS PROGRAM IS REVIEWED THAT WAY AND APPROVED BY COUNCIL AND THAT COMMITTEE. MM-HMM . BUT THERE ARE A FEW OUT THERE THAT HAVE JUST BEEN OUT THERE FOREVER. LIKE AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. SOME ONE OF THOSE COMES UP EVERY YEAR FOR LIKE 10 GRAND AND IT'S NOT PART OF THE SMALL GRANTS VERDE FRONT, THINGS LIKE THAT. AND SO SEE, LIKE, OKAY, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT , I SHOULD KNOW THAT , WE ALL SHOULD KNOW THAT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS. CORRECT. AND LOOK AT THAT GROUP. CORRECT. AND REVIEW THIS AS A BODY. CORRECT. I MEAN, THIS SHOULD NOT JUST BE AUTOMATIC MONIES GOING OUT FROM THE CITY THAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT. THAT'S WE'RE ABDICATING OUR RESPONSIBILITY. SOME OF THAT MAY FIT UNDER THE MANAGER'S DISCRETION. IT DOES FIT UNDER HER. AND IT'S BUDGETED BY COUNCIL EVERY YEAR. SO IT'S NOT I AGREE. I AGREE. BUT IT HAS NOT BEEN REVIEWED BY COUNCIL IN SOME TIME. SO. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS SECTION? 'CAUSE THIS IS JUST THE LAST SECTION TILL WE GET TO POLICIES. YEAH, THIS IS THE END OF THE RULES. YEAH. SO I PUT HERE A PLACEHOLDER FOR A POTENTIAL RULE EIGHT COUNCIL ROLE IN LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY. SO WE CAN TRY TO FLESH THAT OUT. WE'LL SEE WHAT WE CAN COME UP WITH FIRST AND COME BACK TO COUNCIL WITH SOME IDEAS. SO I APPRECIATE YOUR NEXT'S DIRECTION ON THAT. OKAY. UH, LIQUOR LICENSES IS, WE'VE ALREADY, UM, DEEMED AUTHORITY OVER TO THE CLERK, CITY CLERK, AND THAT'S WHY THAT'S HERE. YOU'RE GOOD WITH THAT STILL, RIGHT, JOANNE? YEAH. THOSE ARE SPECIAL EVENT LIQUOR LICENSES. THE OTHERS COME TO YOU ON THE CONSENT. AND THEN POLICY BB, THE ELECTRONIC EMAIL AND MAIL, UM, THE MAJOR CHANGES. THE CITYWIDE EMAIL INTERNET POLICY, INSTEAD OF JUST THROWING IT IN HERE FOR HOWEVER MANY PAGES WAS A SUGGESTION FROM MONIQUE. WE CAN JUST REFERENCE THE, WHERE THE POLICY'S LOCATED AT AND THAT, BECAUSE THE POLICY DOES CHANGE TIME FROM TIME TO TIME. BUT, UH, [06:40:01] SO THAT WOULD ILLUMINATE 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. A LOT OF PAGES FROM THE RULES OF PROCEDURE THAT DON'T NECESSARILY NEED TO BE IN THERE. YOU, IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ON THE INTERNET POLICY, YOU CAN REFER TO THE INTERNET POLICY, UM, ASK ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. SIMILARLY, POLICY, SEE THE TRAVEL POLICY FOR COUNSELORS, UH, WITH THE RULES OF PROCUREMENT AND HAVING A PROCUREMENT OFFICER AND FINANCE, UM, REVIEWING THOSE THINGS. WE HAVE A NEW TRAVEL POLICY AND SO WE'D LIKE TO JUST, UH, REFERENCE THAT IN THE RULES OF PROCEDURE INSTEAD OF OUTLINING THIS OLD POLICY. AND, AND THE IN THAT RULES, IT TALKS ABOUT POOL VEHICLE AND ACCIDENTS AND ALL OF THIS STUFF THAT'S IN HERE. ANY CONCERNS WITH CHANGING THOSE TO LINKS TO THE ACTUAL DOCUMENTS? OKAY. AND THEN THE LAST ONE IS, THIS ONE'S REALLY KIND OF RELATED MM-HMM . TO OUR DISCUSSION ABOVE ABOUT INFORMAL VOLUNTARY, UM, FINANCIAL COMMITMENT. AND THEN THE, THIS IS OUR FINANCIAL COMMITMENT ONES. THESE ARE OUR SERVICE CONTRACTS. UM, AND IT'S JUST THE COUNCIL'S POLICY ON THAT AND OUR COMMUNITY SERVICE ORGANIZATION. SO THIS IS THE ONE THAT FITS, KIND OF COVERS THAT AREA. IT'S A GOOD POLICY. I'M NOT SURE THE REASON WHEN AND HOW IT ENDED UP IN THE RULES OF PROCEDURE, BUT IT SEEMS TO DESCRIBE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE ORGANIZATIONS PRETTY WELL. SO I DON'T HAVE ANY REASON TO AMEND IT OR CHANGE IT OR PULL IT OUT. SHOULD IT BE A STANDALONE POLICY OR SHOULD IT IT'S AN APPENDIX. GO BACK UNDER SECTION. AN APPENDIX A I DON'T KNOW WHEN AND HOW IT BECAME AN APPENDIX. YEAH. . IT SEEMS WEIRD TO THROW THE WHOLE THING IN EARLIER IN THE RULES. 'CAUSE IT'S NOT REALLY A RULE. UM, I DON'T CARE AS LONG AS WE KNOW IT'S THERE. SO KURT, WHAT DO WE YEAH, IT'S, IT'S NOT REFERENCED ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE DOCUMENT. IT SHOULD BE AT LEAST BE REFERENCED SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE DOCUMENT. SO THAT'S, THAT'S FALLEN OUT SOMEWHERE. SO LET ME WORK ON THAT. IT SHOULD PROBABLY GO UP UNDER THE, UH, SECTION AT LEAST OF REFERENCE TO IT AND THE REASON WHY WE HAVE IT HERE. SO I'LL FIGURE THAT OUT. I CAN, I CAN GO BACK AND LOOK AT PAST VERSIONS AND AT SOME POINT I AM SURE IT HAD A REFERENCE THAT GOT MISSED. SO. OKAY. SO I'LL MAKE A NOTE FOR MYSELF TO DO THAT. IS THERE ANYTHING WE NEED TO DO IN THE APPENDIX? NO, WHAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT. THAT'S THE ONLY ITEM IN THE APPENDIX. MM-HMM . OKAY. UM, WE WILL RE REFERENCE IT SOMEWHERE IN THE RULES OR WE'LL FIND A NEW HOME FOR IT. IT'S A GOOD POLICY AND IT DESCRIBES WHAT WE'RE DOING THERE VERY WELL. UM, BUT IT'S BECOME DISCONNECTED A LITTLE BIT. MIGHT BE ITS OWN SECTION, RIGHT? IT COULD BE, YEAH. I'LL TAKE A LOOK AND SEE IF THERE'S A HOME FOR IT. OKAY. SO KURT, WHAT IS YOUR, WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP FOR THESE? YOU GO BACK, WORK ON THIS, AND THEN IT COMES TO US AS AN AGENDIZED ITEM IN A COUNCIL MEETING FOR, FOR FURTHER VETTING OF THE REWRITE. YES. SO, UM, IF IT HAD BEEN MINOR CHANGES AND WE WERE ALL AGREED ON AND WE DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF STUFF TO DRAFT STILL, THEN I WOULD'VE JUST BROUGHT IT BACK ON CONSENT AGENDA. BUT THERE'S ENOUGH THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE ON A REGULAR AGENDA ITEM, SO WE'LL BRING IT BACK ON A REGULAR AGENDA, ESPECIALLY WITH THE COUNCIL ROLE IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS. THAT'S GONNA REQUIRE SOME DISCUSSION. SO, UM, YEAH, I MEAN, WE'RE ALREADY TOO LATE FOR THE MEETING IN TWO WEEKS AND THE MEETING ON THE 25TH PROBABLY AND IS ALREADY PRETTY FULL, I BELIEVE. 'CAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A WORK SESSION, BUT IF NOT, WE'LL GET IT ON THE FIRST MEETING IN DECEMBER FOR, UM, SO EITHER THE SECOND MEETING IN NOVEMBER OR THE FIRST MEETING IN DECEMBER, IT'LL COME BACK TO COUNCIL ON THE REGULAR AGENDA FOR DISCUSSION. AND DO YOU ENVISION THAT YOU'LL HAVE ANY DISCUSSION THIS UNDER THE PRIORITIES THEN, OR THAT'S OFF THE AGENDA? BECAUSE WE USUALLY DO SOME DISCUSSION THERE, SO THAT FREES UP SOME TIME IN THOSE MEETINGS. I'VE CONSIDERED THIS TAKING THE PLACE. YEAH. USUALLY WE SPEND AT LEAST TWO HOURS ON THIS AT THE, UM, YEAH. AGENDA OR THE DECEMBER PRIORITIES MEETING. AND SO I THINK THIS CAN TAKE THE PLACE OF THAT, ESPECIALLY IF WE HAVE WHEN WE'RE MEETING, IF YOU APPROVE THE CHANGES, IF AT THAT TIME WHEN WE HAVE THIS COME BACK, THE END OF NOVEMBER, BEGINNING OF DECEMBER, YOU WANT IT ON THE PRIORITIES, WE CAN YOU CAN DISCUSS IT THEN IN FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS. AND IF WE, IF IT STILL NEEDS WORK. YEAH. YEAH. IF WE CAN'T APPROVE IT AT THAT TIME. THANK YOU MAYOR. UM, [06:45:01] SO SWAN APPENDIX A, WHEREVER IT'S GOING TO BE, THERE'S A SENTENCE, I DON'T KNOW, IN THE ONE, IN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH AT THE END IT SAYS, EXPANSION OF THE SERVICE CONTRACT PROGRAM IS NOT WARRANTED AT THIS TIME. I THINK THAT THAT'S AN UNNECESSARY SENTENCE. IT MAY NOT ACTUALLY EVEN BE TRUE. AND SO, UM, IT JUST FEELS LIKE IT, THIS WAS LIKE TAKEN FROM A MEMO OR SOMETHING AND THEN SLAPPED IN HERE AND, AND I JUST WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THAT SENTENCE REMOVED. WHERE IS THAT SENTENCE IN HERE? IT'S ON THE SECOND SECOND, YOU KNOW, END OF THE SECOND PARAGRAPH. EXPANSION OF THE SERVICE CONTRACT PROGRAM IS NOT WARRANTED AT THIS TIME. THAT SOUNDS MORE LIKE A MEMO THAN A POLICY STATEMENT. GOT IT. AND WE DON'T KNOW THAT. UH OH, HANDS UP OH, GO AHEAD AND FINISH THAT. THIS ISN'T RELATED TO THAT SPECIFICALLY. SO GO AHEAD. IT WAS A SENTIMENT EXPRESSED WHEN IT WAS CRAFTED. THERE WAS THINGS GOING ON. AND SO WERE THEY DECIDED? YEAH, WE SHOULD HAVE PUT A DATE ON IT. IT COULD HAVE BEEN IT WAS 2003 OR SOMETHING THAT THEY, AT THIS TIME, I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'LL FIND OUT. WELL, AND WE DID HAVE A NEW SERVICE CONTRACT. MM-HMM . AWARDED A FEW YEARS AGO MM-HMM . WHICH WE DEEMED AS WARRANTED AT THAT TIME. . JOANNE HAD A QUESTION. JOANNE, UH, MAYOR AND COUNSELORS, JUST FOR CLARIFICATION. UM, THE CITY CLERK'S OFFICE THEN WE'LL NOT BE SCHEDULING ANY INTERVIEWS CURRENTLY. WE'LL WAIT UNTIL THE RULES OF PROCEDURES GET APPROVED. AND THEN SO THAT YOU ARE ALL PARTICIPATING, IS THAT OH, FOR THE, FOR ARE YOU AGREED FOR THE CURRENT, FOR THE CURRENT OPENINGS? WELL, RIGHT NOW, PNZ IS LOOKING AT NOVEMBER AND THERE'S ONE PNZ COMMISSIONER'S UP FOR REELECTION OR REAPPOINTMENT AND, AND THAT PERSON IS, IS SITTING THERE. SO IT'S NOT A VACANCY. SO IF IT TAKES A LITTLE BIT LONGER, I I DON'T THINK THAT'S AN ISSUE. THAT'S, YES. SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN APPOINTED UNTIL REPLACED. SO SHE'LL REMAIN ON UNTIL IS THIS FROM A CURRENT YES. A RECOMMENDATION THAT'S ALREADY COME FORWARD? NO, THIS IS A SITTING COMMISSIONER WHO'S APPLIED FOR REAPPOINTMENT AND OH YEAH. FOR CURRENT. YEAH. UPCOMING OPENING. SO I'M SAYING IT'S NOT A VACANCY WHERE THEY CAN'T FULFILL THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES. RIGHT. 'CAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A FULL RIGHT. SLATE OF, AND MOST OF THEM HAVE THE LANGUAGE TO SAY THEY CONTINUE IN THAT. RIGHT. THAT'S IN THAT ROLE UNTIL, UNTIL A SUCCESSOR IS APPOINTED. CORRECT. WE HAVE THAT, UM, WITH ALL APPOINTMENTS. YEAH. SO WE'LL WANT TO DOUBLE CHECK HERS AND MAKE SURE THAT'S IN THERE. BUT FROM TWO YEARS AGO, USUALLY WHEN THE MOTION YEAH. HAPPENS. YEAH, BUT JUST DOUBLE CHECK IT. OKAY. ONE NIGHT AM I JUST WANTED SOME CLARITY ON WAS ABOUT THE MAYOR AND COUNCIL OFFICE. WE DECIDED NOT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT RESTRICTING THAT AS A PRIVILEGE. BUT DID WE WANNA PUT ANYTHING IN THE RULES ABOUT ITS USE? THAT IT'S NOT AN OFFICE, IT'S A ROOM SOMETHING. I CALL IT A CONFERENCE REC, IT'S A . RIGHT. YOU SHOULD GIVE IT A CONFERENCE ROOM NAME AND JUST HAVE IT BE AVAILABLE FOR RESERVATION BY COUNSELORS. DO WE NEED ANYTHING IN THE RULES SAYING THAT? WELL, NO, IT NOT TO BE MADE INTO A OFFICE. IT DOESN'T, IT'S NOT OH, I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. YES. SO IN THE FUTURE PRIVATE OFFICE, IT'S NOT, I MEAN, IT IS AN OFFICE. YEAH. I WOULDN'T MIND GOING IN THERE AND USING IT AS AN OFFICE BY RESERVATION IN A WHATEVER WAY. I MEAN, I PROBABLY WON'T, BUT YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO REDEFINE WHAT IT IS AS A PHYSICAL SPACE, MY OPINION. BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING IN THE RULES THAT ACTUALLY EVEN DESIGNATES IT. RIGHT? YEAH. AUTHORIZES IT'S TRUE. NOTHING. OR DO YOU WANT A SENTENCE ON THAT? A QUESTION TO IT THOUGH, ABOUT APPROPRIATE POTENTIAL USE FOR THAT OFFICE AS WELL. WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE? I HAVE DOCUMENTS I KNOW THAT I DON'T HAVE PHYSICAL SPACE FOR IN A HOME FILING SYSTEM, NOR DO I WANT TO CREATE IN MY HOME FILES FOR THE CITY STUFF. COULD WE GET A FILE CANDIDATE IN THERE WITH A DRAWER DESIGNATED PER COUNSELOR, YOU KNOW, FOR THE STUFF THAT WE USE NEED AND WANT IN THERE, CORRESPONDENCE DOCUMENTS THAT WE FREQUENTLY GO BACK TO, WANNA KEEP HARD COPY OR SOMETHING. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE A GOOD USE OF THAT SPACE FOR US AND HELP US? I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT NEEDS TO BE THERE. COULD WE JUST SOMEWHERE ASK THE MADAM CLERK IF SHE CAN FIND THE SPACE FOR US? DO YOU ALL WANT SOMETHING LIKE THAT? AS LONG AS STAFF AREN'T REQUIRED TO MANAGE YOUR DOCUMENTS THAT YOU, THAT'S WHY NO, NO, NO. SOMETHING SEPARATE. [06:50:01] RIGHT? RIGHT. I WOULDN'T MIND IT. I'VE GOT A LOT OF CITY STUFF IN MY HOUSE. ME TOO. AND I DON'T REALLY WANT IT THERE. SO REC, WE HAVE SOME FILE DRAWERS THAT MIGHT BE AVAILABLE BACK IN THE RECORDS CLERK'S OFFICE. WE'VE GOT SOME, WE, I'VE GOT SOME CABINETS. THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE HAS SOME EXTRA FILE CABINETS TOO THAT COULD BE MOVED OVER AS WE'VE GONE DIGITAL. WE'VE BEEN PURGING STUFF MORE THAN FIVE YEARS OLD. WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO PUT A, THE CABINET IN THE, IN THAT, UM, MAYOR AND COUNSELOR'S ROOM. I WOULD SUGGEST THOUGH, IF YOU NEED A DESK MM-HMM . AND KEEP, WELL COULD MOVE THAT DESK OUT OF THE CONFERENCE ROOM. THERE'S A, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A DOC THERE. STAFF COULD ALSO USE THAT DESK OR STAFF WAITING TO COME INTO A COUNCIL MEETING, COULD LISTEN TO THE COUNCIL MEETING AND WORK BACK THERE. OR WE COULD HAVE SOME EXECUTIVE SESSION MEETINGS IN THAT ROOM THAT HAS WINDOWS. IT'S, IT'S NOT, IT'S VERY FULL. MY OPINION IS IT'S VERY FULL. SO IF YOU NEED THAT DESK OR YOU HAVE A BETTER USE FOR IT, LET US KNOW. I DON'T THINK IT NEEDS TO STAY THERE. IT'S NOT OURS. IT'S, IT'S THEIR DECISION TO MAKE. YEAH. WE DON'T EVEN HAVE TO DISCUSS IT. YEAH. THAT IS THE CITY MANAGER'S OKAY. PURVIEW TO MOVE THE FURNITURE. MM-HMM . THAT WOULD MAKE MORE ROOM IF YOU DID CORRECT. DECIDE TO HAVE AN EXECUTIVE SESSION MEETING IN THERE BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IT WOULD BE TOO CROWDED. YEAH. JUST, UH, IT MIGHT, WOULD TAKE SOME TIME TO GET THE, UM, TECHNOLOGY TO HAVE WHAT IS SET UP HERE IN THERE. BUT IF YOU KNOW THAT WE DON'T NEED THAT TECHNOLOGY FOR A MEETING, IT'S AVAILABLE UP TO YOU. YEAH. YOUR CALL. OKAY. SO IF WE'RE DONE WITH THE RULES, LET'S MOVE ON TO SPECIAL BUSINESS B DISCUSSION, POSSIBLE ACTION REGARDING IDEAS FOR FUTURE MEETING AGENDA ITEMS. AND WE HAD ONE WE WERE DISCUSSING. I HAVE ONE THAT'S RELATED. DO YOU WANNA GO WITH YOURS FIRST? NO, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT YEAH, BUT WE HAVE TO BRING IT FORWARD AS A FUTURE AGENDA ITEM RIGHT NOW. NOW, YES. MINE MINE'S DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, BUT ON MINE, UM, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION AROUND, UM, UH, WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE TWO ORGANIZATIONS IN OUR COMMUNITY WE DO WANNA CONSIDER ADDING AS, UH, CONTRACT ORGANIZATIONS GIVEN OUR CURRENT CONVERSATION AROUND HOMELESSNESS AND, UM, THE SUPPORT SERVICES FOR THE UN HOMED. I SUPPORT THAT. THAT YEAH. THAT WOULD NEED TO BE AGENDIZED AND WELL, THAT'S WHY IT'S FOR FUTURE AGENDA. THAT'S WHY I DIDN'T MENTION WHAT THEY WERE. . ALL RIGHT, WE GOT ONE SECOND. WE GOT ONE MORE I THINK. COUNCIL FIRM. OKAY. THAT WE'LL GET THAT ON THE NEXT AVAILABLE AGENDA. WAS THAT YOU MAYOR OR COUNCILOR FAF. FINANCIALLY. COUNCILOR FAFF AND COUNCILOR FURMAN. SO THERE'S YOUR THREE AND IT'S FOR CONSIDERATION OF, UM, ADDITIONAL, UH, CITY SERVICE CONTRACTS, ORGANIZATIONS, , THERE'S COMMUNITY. IS THERE, DID YOU HAVE NOPE. OH, OH, THEN I'VE GOT ONE. OKAY. OKAY. WHICH IS, I'D LIKE A FUTURE AGENDA ITEM TO DISCUSS, UM, DESIGNATING GETTING LIAISON ROLES IN TERMS OF THE ORGANIZATIONS, UH, FOR CATEGORIZATION FOR CONTRACTS VERSUS GOVERNMENTAL VERSUS NONPROFIT ORGANIZATIONS THAT WE MAY BE INVOLVED WITH. I DON'T KNOW IF I'VE CAPTURED THE FULL LANGUAGE THERE, BUT YOU GET MY DRIFT BASED ON OUR PRIOR CONVERSATION. YES, THANK YOU. AND EVERYBODY'S IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT. YEAH. AND THAT'S UNDER THE COUNCIL ASSIGNMENTS CONVERSATION. YES. ALONG WITH THAT QUESTION, IS THERE REAL URGENCY TO FILL THE SLOT FOR THE HUMANE SOCIETY? SHOULD WE JUST GET THAT OUT OF THE WAY ON AN UPCOMING AGENDA? I HEARD SOMEBODY SAY, LET'S WAIT TILL WE HAVE A NEW, WELL, I DON'T, COUNSELOR DON'T, WE'RE NOT AGENDAS TO MAKE AN APPOINTMENT. WELL, NOW MY QUESTION IS TO PUT THAT ON THE AGENDA TO, IS IT A PRESSING MATTER, PRESSING ENOUGH MATTER THAT WE SHOULD GO AHEAD AND SO WE'RE NOT AGENDAS TO DISCUSS IT, BUT SOMEONE CAN PROPOSE IT AND WE'LL SEE. IF WE GET TWO SECONDS, I WOULD PROPOSE, LET'S JUST PUT IT ON THE AGENDA. PUT IT ON THE AGENDA TO DISCUSS FILLING THE SLOT. OKAY. I SEE THREE SUPPORTING THAT. SO MAYOR PLU, COUNSELOR DUNN, AND COUNSELOR F I'M THE NEW GUY. I KNOW, I, [5. ADJOURNMENT] OKAY. WITHOUT OBJECTION, WE'RE ADJOURNED. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.